37 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Hey everyone. When looking into the MG earlier, the wiki had an interesting fact: The velocity for the projectile is supposed to be 100.

For clarification, LRMs now move 120. SRMs move 300. This is a short range MG bullet!

This could be a good chunk of why even after it's range and damage buffs it is still so horrendously under performing. Is the wiki in error? Is the MG really this slow?

EDIT: As of now it appears MGs are HITSCAN weapons with a 100 speed Graphical Effect. We can all go back to hating MG damage again folks.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 May 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[Edustaja]

No reason for machine gun bullets to be as slow as airsoft bb's.

[Rudugar]

They're 100 meters per second. That's 6000 meters per minute. That's 360,000 meters per hour which is 360 km/h. The fastest mech is 152.7 km/h. How fast do you need these bullets to be?

[Victor Morson]

Rudugar, on 29 May 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

They're 100 meters per second. That's 6000 meters per minute. That's 360,000 meters per hour which is 360 km/h. The fastest mech is 152.7 km/h. How fast do you need these bullets to be?

At least as fast as SRMs, so around 300 meters per second.

[The Cheese]

I was under the impression that MGs work the same way as lasers (ie; hitscan instead of in-game model) and that the MG fire we see on screen is just for graphical effect. That's why they were included in the laser HSR patch, but not noted in the ballistics HSR patch.

This thread notes that the machine gun falls under the same weapon mechanic as a laser:
http://mwomercs.com/...rewind-phase-1/

Ballistics list is here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-state-rewind/

What I'm getting at here is that the speed of 100 is just for the graphics. The damage mechanic itself is actually an instant hit.

Edited by The Cheese, 29 May 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[Victor Morson]

The Cheese, on 29 May 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

I was under the impression that MGs work the same way as lasers (ie; hitscan instead of in-game model) and that the MG fire we see on screen is just for graphical effect, which is why they were included in the laser HSR patch, but not noted in the ballistics HSR patch.

I can't find the laser one, but the ballistics list is here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-state-rewind/

Interesting, if this is the case. Can anyone that's seriously looked at the MG confirm how they work? If the Wiki is in error, it's a very good thing. Hit scan would be far better.

[Rudugar]

The Cheese, on 29 May 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

I was under the impression that MGs work the same way as lasers (ie; hitscan instead of in-game model) and that the MG fire we see on screen is just for graphical effect. That's why they were included in the laser HSR patch, but not noted in the ballistics HSR patch.

I can't find the laser one, but the ballistics list is here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-state-rewind/

What I'm getting at here is that the speed of 100 is just for the graphics. The weapon itself is actually an instant hit.

I've actually heard the same thing, but haven't seen any official comfirmation. If it's only 100m/s or if it's instant like lasers, does it really matter? You're so close that you should be hitting either way.

[Apoc1138]

Smurfy pulls it's data from the XML files - it says 100 as well, so yes it is 100

[Victor Morson]

Update. According to the most competent MG focused player, it seems running MGs on a 'mech that moves over 100kph is not advisable because you literally are moving nearly as fast as the projectile. Ouch.

How has this gone unaddressed?

Rudugar, on 29 May 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

I've actually heard the same thing, but haven't seen any official comfirmation. If it's only 100m/s or if it's instant like lasers, does it really matter? You're so close that you should be hitting either way.

It matters a great deal.

Again, SRMs - you need to lead them, right? They move 3 times faster than machine gun rounds.

Also, again according to the reigning MG champ, you cannot run MGs on a 'mech that moves over 100kph because you begin moving so close to your projectile speed that leading them becomes impossible.

Given MGs are popular on light builds, that's just sad.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 May 2013 - 01:10 AM.

[The Cheese]

Victor Morson, on 29 May 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Update. According to the most competent MG focused player, it seems running MGs on a 'mech that moves over 100kph is not advisable because you literally are moving nearly as fast as the projectile. Ouch.

How has this gone unaddressed?

I updated my post to include the proof that MGs are a hitscan weapon. Also, that player says not to use MGs at over 100km/h because they're hard to aim, not because there's a risk of shooting yourself. On a related note, I think that player is under the assumption that the MG is an actual in-game model weapon, which as I've said, is not the case. Scratch that last part, I just read his post more carefully.

Actually, if I'm right to believe that the MG works the same way as the laser as far as its hit registration works, the bodgy hit reg when using MGs in a high speed mech is probably due to lag more than anything else.

Edited by The Cheese, 29 May 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[Rudugar]

Victor Morson, on 29 May 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

Update. According to the most competent MG focused player, it seems running MGs on a 'mech that moves over 100kph is not advisable because you literally are moving nearly as fast as the projectile. Ouch.

How has this gone unaddressed?

This player is greatly mistaken. The number '100' does not refer to km/h. All weapon speeds refer to meters per second. 100m/s = 360km/h.

[Victor Morson]

Rudugar, on 29 May 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

This player is greatly mistaken. The number '100' does not refer to km/h. All weapon speeds refer to meters per second. 100m/s = 360km/h.

I don't think he thought that. Merely that when you are moving so fast, the projectiles launched from your 'mech are likely not tracking properly.

Or are we back to saying he is in error and this is a hitscan issue?

[The Cheese]

Victor Morson, on 29 May 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Or are we back to saying he is in error and this is a hitscan issue?

That's what I'm thinking.

[Victor Morson]

The Cheese, on 29 May 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

That's what I'm thinking.

It's quite likely. I really am curious now. Someone has to have a definitive answer here.

Because if these are really tracking at 100 despite the graphics, it would explain why they seem so absolutely terrible beyond their DPS.

[Rudugar]

Let's look at it logically. I don't care what the speed says in mechlab or on smurfy. Machine Guns were updated with the Laser HSR update. That would make them hit-scan or they wouldn't have been part of that update. I'd be willing to do some real-world tests, so to speak, if someone wants to try with me.

[PanzerFurrry]

I've made over 100 matches in my Spider-5K over the past days since May 21st patch.

Machine guns are hitscan weapons, the same principle as laser weapons. They should hit where you aim, minus the spread and contrary to visual effects, machine guns don't require leading.

However, the visuals are not correct, bullets seems to travel at 100 m/s, but they don't do damage at all.

This can be easily seen if you shoot at moving target, with leading (so the bullets will hit), no damage and no visual effect will be seen. But aiming directly at the target (just like lasers), damage will be made and visual effect will be seen (bullets glancing off the armour), however the visuals for projectiles is off, they will miss.

Think of the visuals for projectiles as tracers or range finders, they are not relevant to damage or accuracy at all.

Edited by PanzerFurrry, 29 May 2013 - 01:26 AM.

[aniviron]

MGs are hitscan. That is why the first HSR patch that updated lasers also updated MGs. Go shoot something in the testing grounds; there is no delay between firing and hitting. There is no projectile, they hit instantly.

[Victor Morson]

The Cheese, on 29 May 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

I was under the impression that MGs work the same way as lasers (ie; hitscan instead of in-game model) and that the MG fire we see on screen is just for graphical effect. That's why they were included in the laser HSR patch, but not noted in the ballistics HSR patch.

This thread notes that the machine gun falls under the same weapon mechanic as a laser:
http://mwomercs.com/...rewind-phase-1/

Ballistics list is here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-state-rewind/

What I'm getting at here is that the speed of 100 is just for the graphics. The damage mechanic itself is actually an instant hit.

Fascinating. Well, it's looking like this might not be the cause of MG failure after all.

[The Cheese]

Victor Morson, on 29 May 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Fascinating. Well, it's looking like this might not be the cause of MG failure after all.

Nope. They are legitimately that bad.

[Rudugar]

The Cheese, on 29 May 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Nope. They are legitimately that bad.

Confirmed.