142 replies to this topic

[Monky]

GODzillaGSPB, on 24 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

From my comment at YT:


Wtf? After the first salvo I thought "looks okay". Armor was yellow. The next ripped the armor away (on an atlas...so this probably destroyed armor worth 60 points or more) and almost cored the CT (must've been another 30 internal points on top of the 60 from before).

This is totally unreasonable! -.-


Plus you can clear see the outer parts of the mechs flash, but not the internals, yet he gets cored in the last salvo. This means the missiles did not hit the CT, yet splash damage did the rest.

While it is dubious to test in training grounds currently - this does match what i'm seeing live. missiles hit the 'torso' in general, but the CT is basically getting hit by the splash that arrives from the LT/RT as well, so it is taking full damage from a salvo. Moving and avoiding seems to do little about this as most missiles still hit the 'torso' area.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I can't see videos by the way. So if you respond to me I'm just going off of the fact that BEFORE THE PATCH. When everyone said LRM's were the worst weapon in the game. And basically no one hand them. If someone stood still. My damage well full CT with minor spread to other spots.

So why complain now? Because of .2 extra damage?

[Gralzeim]

I thought Artemis + direct LoS was supposed to make LRMs more dangerous, e.g. tight pattern homing on CT. Indirect fire with or without Artemis shouldn't do that though.

I do agree that transferal from rear to front or vice versa is a bit weird, but that occurs with other non-missile weapons as well (has for awhile). Been nailed in the front on my Cataphract and taken rear armor damage from things like PPCs and Gauss. Doesn't happen every time, and I'm aware that the rear CT has a slight bit that can be hit on the front of that mech, but I'm talking about side torsos.

Edited by Gralzeim, 24 May 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Monky, on 24 May 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

While it is dubious to test in training grounds currently - this does match what i'm seeing live. missiles hit the 'torso' in general, but the CT is basically getting hit by the splash that arrives from the LT/RT as well, so it is taking full damage from a salvo. Moving and avoiding seems to do little about this as most missiles still hit the 'torso' area.

No one should ever posts videos from Training Grounds.

I've always 2-3 shotted everything in training grounds with LRM's.

[Dude42]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

I don't know about all this.

I'm just saying, if LRM's are balanced against other weapons. When someone is standing in the open and not actively trying to fight/avoid you. If you fire 4 volley's of Dual LRM 15's into him, yes, most of that damage should go torso if the person is spending the extra tonnage for this like Artemis and TAG.

Totally agree. LRM15+Artemis is 8 tons each, not counting ammo, tag, BAP, or narc. PPC is 7 tons. So if a target is standing out in the open, in direct LOS, Tagged, with artemis, the LRMs should actually be more effective than a PPC in that scenario, else it's underpowered and a waste of tonnage, and totally not balanced against other weapons. OP stated that he fired the equivalent of 8 LRM15+Artemis at a blackjack(medium mech) to take it down under those conditions. I argue that If I had made the same 4 shots with 2x PPCs, I would have cored the BJ even easier. Thus, LRMs are a waste of tonnage. Indirect fire is a different story, but that's not what OP was crying about.

[Reith Dynamis]

"I thought Artemis + direct LoS was supposed to make LRMs more dangerous."

It does and working as intended. The only issue is splash. but line of sight with Artemis will cause ct hits a all the time. He just doesn't want to believe it.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Gralzeim, on 24 May 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

I thought Artemis + direct LoS was supposed to make LRMs more dangerous.

I do agree that transferal from rear to front or vice versa is a bit weird, but that occurs with other non-missile weapons as well (has for awhile).

I still think this comes down to LRM's basically not being used for 2 months and people being shocked they are back.

It's a completely different mechanic to deal with.

it's created a change from standing on a ridge and fighting.

People were very complacent.

[WhupAzz]

PGI, you have broken LURM's again!

You do this everytime! You make them viab .. Er .. OP everytime you try to fix them and there is no need! If you buff there damage then you should nerf there speed atleast 50% not buff it!!!!

Please re-nerf the damage (And some) of LRM's to 0.04 as they actually hurt and i can't handle been killed by such a noob weapon!!!

(Posted for lols)

[MuFasa]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

No one should ever posts videos from Training Grounds.

I've always 2-3 shotted everything in training grounds with LRM's.

I posted the video and I understand what you're saying the issue isn't the amount of armor mechs don't have in the training grounds. That is the issue you know players in game are maxing their armor which is fine. Irreguardless of the fact that they training ground targets have less armor, you can SEE that the damage is FOCUSED. And yes, you're right with artemis and LOS there is a bonus but I think anyone can see the splash damage is STILL concentrated on the CT. That's all anyone is saying.

[Reith Dynamis]

They stated there will be a fix, they never said soon

[80Bit]

Monky, on 24 May 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Cored 1 BJ with 2x LRM15 + artemis, little damage to any other section - 4 volleys

So you landed 120 Artemis missiles, for 108 damage, on a mech that will generally take about 75 damage to CT to core.
So you used 16 tons of weapons over ~13 seconds to core a BJ.
You could also use 14 tons of PPC over ~13 seconds to do the same thing.

And you yourself stated that flight path is better, so your target could move to cover effectively now.

I am failing to see the problem.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MuFasa, on 24 May 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I posted the video and I understand what you're saying the issue isn't the amount of armor mechs don't have in the training grounds. That is the issue you know players in game are maxing their armor which is fine. Irreguardless of the fact that they training ground targets have less armor, you can SEE that the damage is FOCUSED. And yes, you're right with artemis and LOS there is a bonus but I think anyone can see the splash damage is STILL concentrated on the CT. That's all anyone is saying.

I'm going to say this one more time. Why is this an issue now?

BEFORE the May 21st patch, BEFORE the hotfix today. AFTER the hotfix that neutered missiles.

I could do the exact same thing in the video in the training grounds. I've used LRM's my whole time playing, whether they were nerfed or not. And i've tested quite a few times on the training grounds.

THIS IS NOT NEW.

The only difference now. .2 extra damage and a new flight path which shouldn't matter for that test.

[Monky]

Once again - no one is saying 'LRMs are OP'. It is that the LRMs are doing their damage incorrectly. LRMs and SSRMs and SRMs are simply dealing the damage incorrectly. Part of the entire reason to use an LRM over a PPC or AC is because it is -supposed- to spread the damage, while still dealing good hits. This allows for enemies with exposed sections to take hits, possibly knocking out side torsos with XLs, or other equipment, while capable of being fired indirectly.

[Reith Dynamis]

"LRMs and SSRMs and SRMs are simply dealing the damage incorrectly. Part of the entire reason to use an LRM over a PPC or AC is because it is -supposed- to spread the damage, while still dealing good hits. This allows for enemies with exposed sections to take hits, possibly knocking out side torsos with XLs, or other equipment, while capable of being fired indirectly."

Regular lrms yes. Not lrms with Artemis and line of sight, they will not spread so much. even TT rules say the volleys are concentrated more. the biggest target on any torso is CT. the splash bug is what people have to contend with until PGI fixes it.

oh secondly in TT all damage spreads due to lack of efficient targeting system,this effected ppc, guass, and lasers convergance. TT was balance cause they were dice rolls!

Now to say that other wapons won't be affected by cause of aiming and that lrms should does take away from the fact how they worked anyway.

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 24 May 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

This is why LRM's are always going to be a mess.

First the expectation of bringing extra gear (Good LRM pilots have their own TAG, Artemis and BAP). And a certain expectation of spotting. They are also the only weapon with a warning that gives someone time to avoid or adjust to them.

Then there is the fact that there are two pieces of gear directly created to counter them. AMS and ECM. No other weapons have this issue.

So you almost HAVE to run into an issue where there are instances where LRM's are overpowered.

Basically you have:

1] Base level LRM vs. Mech.

2] Full equip LRM vs. Mech.

3] Base level LRM vs. Mech with AMS

4] Full equip LRM vs Mech with AMS

5] Base level LRM vs. Mech with AMS & ECM

6] Full equip LRM vs Mech with AMS & ECM

Then there are all the variations inbetween, UAV, a Spotter.

Here is a question, if an LRM mech with all of the extra gear he can pack in, plus a UAV goes up against a mech with no AMS, and no ECM.

Should he rock out that mech?

If not, then what does an LRM mech with none of those things do? Roll over and die?

I posted this in another thread. This is the problem in a nut shell.

Want to fix LRM's? You need to get rid of AMS, ECM, Missile Warning, Artemis, TAG, NARC and UAV's.

[Dude42]

Monky, on 24 May 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Once again - no one is saying 'LRMs are OP'.

I see a lot of people saying that. You may not be, but don't propose that others are not, when I can read that they are.

Edit: Actually, I have to add that there are only 3 states LRMs can exists in as far as game balance is concerned. They can be either overpowered, underpowered, or balanced. Since you say they are not overpowered, that only leaves underpowered and balanced as options. Which is it?

Edited by Dude42, 24 May 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

Roland, on 24 May 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Sure, but still, he fired 120 freaking missiles at the mech.

If the guy wasn't behind cover, then I would expect that mech (a 45 ton medium) to be absolutely ruined, if not dead, after eating 120 LRM's, even if they spread damage around.



Ok, this is a valid point then, if it wasn't spreading damage around. I thought you were suggesting that 4 volleys of 2 artemised LRM15's shouldn't kill a medium chassis (I think it definitely should).

I agree with you especially the blackjack. Funny its armor rating is like the cicada but that profile makes it so much easier to kill. Along with speed.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

PropagandaWar, on 24 May 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I agree with you especially the blackjack. Funny its armor rating is like the cicada but that profile makes it so much easier to kill. Along with speed.

It honestly is a sucky mech.

[Budor]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

And don't say it's harder to use a PPC. It's clearly not.

It clearly is. Because you need to aim it and have line of sight.

But this isnt the point. The point is that the splash damage mechanic is broken and that some variants get even more damage applied to them than others with the same number of missiles.

Edited by Budor, 24 May 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Budor, on 24 May 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

It clearly is. Because you need to aim it and have line of sight.

But this isnt the point. The point is that the splash damage mechanic is broken and that some variants get even more damage applied to them than others with the same number of missiles.

I still love this assertion that I can shoot LRM's indirectly and hit my target more than maybe 1 in 10 times unless the person I'm shooting at is totally inept at this game.

Do you mean if I have a dedicated spotter? Because then you are asserting it takes 2 mechs to use LRM's properly.

I also love that you think aiming a PPC is difficult. This isn't a FPS with fast moving small human targets. These are slow moving giant robots. Do you have a hard time hitting people with PPC's? If so you might want to rethink gaming in general.

(And if you are going to use light mechs as an example, here is a tip, LRM's SUCK against light mechs, even if you have LOS and fire at them, and have LOS the entire time, if they are moving, the missiles seem to do no damage)

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 24 May 2013 - 12:24 PM.