142 replies to this topic

[Gralzeim]

Regarding SRMs and Streaks, as far as I'm aware this hotfix was only supposed to affect LRMs. I don't know if they tweaked splash for SRMs and Streaks or not. Damage values shouldn't be affected.

Streaks still have crazy flight capabilities (it's that auto-hit capability PGI seems so attached to, results in unnatural (even in a physics-bending game like this) results, such as them turning on a dime (literally) to arc backwards to hit something that ran behind you, even going -through- the firing mech to do so), and still home on CT.

[armyof1]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

I'm saying, we don't know that that happened. From Monky's example, the LRM mech was ignored.

If you read the other examples here, if people are paying attention to the LRM's the damage is spreading. With a larger portion of the damage going CT.

How is that any different than using a PPC?

If I fire at someone 5 times with my PPC, and 2 shots go RT/LT and 3 shots go CT. That's the same thing.

And don't say it's harder to use a PPC. It's clearly not.

Also I'm assuming these mechs have no ECM, and no AMS (Everyone should at least have AMS now).

You're comparing vastly different weapons though, why would you expect the effects of being hit with entirely different kind of weapons should have a similar effect? It's like comparing an AC5 with a medium laser, they're different kind of weapons and should have differences in how they deal damage.

[Monky]

Dude42, on 24 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I see a lot of people saying that. You may not be, but don't propose that others are not, when I can read that they are.

Edit: Actually, I have to add that there are only 3 states LRMs can exists in as far as game balance is concerned. They can be either overpowered, underpowered, or balanced. Since you say they are not overpowered, that only leaves underpowered and balanced as options. Which is it?

Balanced, but in an incredibly poor and buggy way. I am not complaining about the balance, but pointing out that the bug was not fixed, which was the intent of the patch.

If you're going to dump all your damage on CT with direct fire, you might as well just use PPCs. LRM's are different weapons, and should behave in different ways, so that the game is not a boring as hell 'hey lets all damage the CT and ignore everything else' fest.

Edited by Monky, 24 May 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Dude42]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I still love this assertion that I can shoot LRM's indirectly and hit my target more than maybe 1 in 10 times unless the person I'm shooting at is totally inept at this game.

Do you mean if I have a dedicated spotter? Because then you are asserting it takes 2 mechs to use LRM's properly.

I also love that you think aiming a PPC is difficult. This isn't a FPS with fast moving small human targets. These are slow moving giant robots. Do you have a hard time hitting people with PPC's? If so you might want to rethink gaming in general.

Also, don't forget that they buffed PPC projectile speed, and heat, because people were having trouble hitting moving targets. After the implementation of HSR they did not remove these two buffs. Now PPCs are overbuffed, and have been for months, but did they hotfix it. Nope. I'd almost agree it too skill to hit a moving target at 1400m if it weren't for that.

Edited by Dude42, 24 May 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[Budor]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I still love this assertion that I can shoot LRM's indirectly and hit my target more than maybe 1 in 10 times unless the person I'm shooting at is totally inept at this game.

Do you mean if I have a dedicated spotter? Because then you are asserting it takes 2 mechs to use LRM's properly.

I also love that you think aiming a PPC is difficult. This isn't a FPS with fast moving small human targets. These are slow moving giant robots. Do you have a hard time hitting people with PPC's? If so you might want to rethink gaming in general.

(And if you are going to use light mechs as an example, here is a tip, LRM's SUCK against light mechs, even if you have LOS and fire at them, and have LOS the entire time, if they are moving, the missiles seem to do no damage)

You can do damage without line of sight to the target, you cannot do this with a ppc. If you dont get that this mechanic is an advantage im not sure what else i could tell you.

Edited by Budor, 24 May 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Budor, on 24 May 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

You can do damage without line of sight to the target, you cannot do this with a ppc. If you dont get that this mechanic is an advantage im not sure what else i could tell you.

This is so very wrong...its better not to discuss!

[Dude42]

Budor, on 24 May 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

You can do damage without line of sight to the target, you cannot do this with a ppc. If you dont get that this mechanic is an advantage im not sure what else i could tell you.

Ammo. But we were comparing the direct fire modes(with artemis and LOS even). The drawback of using your LRM for indirect fire is that it is a 90% waste of ammo. I would not be opposed to an indirect fire mode for the PPC which does 1 damage and generates 90% of the heat. Oh, and I almost forgot, It would have to require another mech to spot for you too.

Edited by Dude42, 24 May 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

armyof1, on 24 May 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

You're comparing vastly different weapons though, why would you expect the effects of being hit with entirely different kind of weapons should have a similar effect? It's like comparing an AC5 with a medium laser, they're different kind of weapons and should have differences in how they deal damage.

I'm comparing two weapons that take similar amounts of tonnage to carry. I'm ignoring the heat differences because 1 has ammo and 1 does not (that is the classic balancing factor between energy weapons and ammo weapons).

So obviously your next response is "Well LRM's don't require any aiming and can be fired indirectly".

Well my response is PPC's don't have two item's dedicated to stopping them (ECM/AMS). PPC's also do not require extra equipment (Every LRM mech worth it's snot has Artemis, TAG, Advanced Target Decay and BAP).

I also follow up with PPC's are the highest velocity weapon in the game, so much so that it's hard to miss unless you are taking an already super impossible shot that you wouldn't normally take except PPC's fire so damn fast that you might hit.

Ontop of that LRM's also have a giant freaking warning attached to them, telling the person to move and potentially get behind cover.

Whereas PPC's have no such warning.

And please once again do not talk about some mythical match where the LRM mech stays at 1000m and indirectly kills the entire opposing team.

Indirect fire sucks without a spotter. If you have a dedicated spotter is means you have a mech staying out in the open leaving itself vulnerable while you shoot your LRM's.

That means 2 people required.

[Maliconus]

MuFasa, on 24 May 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I posted the video and I understand what you're saying the issue isn't the amount of armor mechs don't have in the training grounds. That is the issue you know players in game are maxing their armor which is fine. Irreguardless of the fact that they training ground targets have less armor, you can SEE that the damage is FOCUSED. And yes, you're right with artemis and LOS there is a bonus but I think anyone can see the splash damage is STILL concentrated on the CT. That's all anyone is saying.

Artemis + LoS = FOCUSED

[Appogee]

In 2 of the 5 games I've played the highest scorer has been an LRM boat sitting 800m back from the battle, lobbing in LRMs courtesy of others' target locks.

While we'll never be rid of lame players, the game shouldn't facilitate them winning from the sidelines.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Oh and also, no minimum range for ER PPC and 90 Min range for PPC (that still does damage below 90). And PPC's shoot beyond 1000, LRM's do not.

[Maliconus]

Appogee, on 24 May 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

In 2 of the 5 games I've played the highest scorer has been an LRM boat sitting 800m back from the battle, lobbing in LRMs courtesy of others' target locks.

While we'll never be rid of lame players, the game shouldn't facilitate them winning from the sidelines.

Lame Players are the Hex PPC boats that don't get Top Damage....5 games is a very small (Read Unusable) sample for any conclusions. So play 5000 games and tell me in 2000 of them the top damage was fron Lame LRMers then I will consider your point.

Edited by Maliconus, 24 May 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[Appogee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Yes, I was using LRM's before ECM, and after ECM. Before the Hotfix and after the Hotfix. I am not using them as a flavor of the month.

Admitting you have a personal problem is the first step to overcoming that problem

[armyof1]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

I'm comparing two weapons that take similar amounts of tonnage to carry. I'm ignoring the heat differences because 1 has ammo and 1 does not (that is the classic balancing factor between energy weapons and ammo weapons).

So obviously your next response is "Well LRM's don't require any aiming and can be fired indirectly".

Well my response is PPC's don't have two item's dedicated to stopping them (ECM/AMS). PPC's also do not require extra equipment (Every LRM mech worth it's snot has Artemis, TAG, Advanced Target Decay and BAP).

I also follow up with PPC's are the highest velocity weapon in the game, so much so that it's hard to miss unless you are taking an already super impossible shot that you wouldn't normally take except PPC's fire so damn fast that you might hit.

Ontop of that LRM's also have a giant freaking warning attached to them, telling the person to move and potentially get behind cover.

Whereas PPC's have no such warning.

And please once again do not talk about some mythical match where the LRM mech stays at 1000m and indirectly kills the entire opposing team.

Indirect fire sucks without a spotter. If you have a dedicated spotter is means you have a mech staying out in the open leaving itself vulnerable while you shoot your LRM's.

That means 2 people required.

Once again, different kind of weapons. Same tonnage should not mean they should all deal the same damage in the same manner. Why would we even need different weapons if that's the case? I'm not sure you're even talking about how damage should or should not spread with lrms anymore, seems like you've gone into why lrms should be buffed or something similar.

Edited by armyof1, 24 May 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Appogee, on 24 May 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

In 2 of the 5 games I've played the highest scorer has been an LRM boat sitting 800m back from the battle, lobbing in LRMs courtesy of others' target locks. While we'll never be rid of lame players, the game shouldn't facilitate them winning from the sidelines.

Can you just stop dude?

I've had AMAZING games with 4 kills and 4 assists and still haven't broken 600 damage. These are games where the opposing mechs ran around in the open while I stood at my base on Rivery City. Paying no attention to me.

You are lying. And you've been doing it every since the patch. You hate LRM's, we get it. Go away.

armyof1, on 24 May 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Once again, different kind of weapons. Same tonnage should not mean they should all deal the same damage in the same manner. Why would we even need different weapons if that's the case? I'm not sure you're even talking about how damage should or should not spread with lrms anymore, seems like you've gone into why lrms should be buffed or something similar.

Did you not read my post? Did you miss the part where LRM's have two counters, require extra equipment, double the minimum range and less maximum range? Did you miss the part where I explicitly state indirect firing without a spotter is terrible?

So why shouldn't LRM's do as much damage as PPC's do?

[Gallowglas]

GODzillaGSPB, on 24 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

From my comment at YT:


Wtf? After the first salvo I thought "looks okay". Armor was yellow. The next ripped the armor away (on an atlas...so this probably destroyed armor worth 60 points or more) and almost cored the CT (must've been another 30 internal points on top of the 60 from before).

This is totally unreasonable! -.-


Plus you can clear see the outer parts of the mechs flash, but not the internals, yet he gets cored in the last salvo. This means the missiles did not hit the CT, yet splash damage did the rest.

I actually kind of agree here. The first volley looks pretty acceptable, but that second volley seems like it's concentrating way too much damage to CT.

[Appogee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Indirect fire sucks without a spotter. If you have a dedicated spotter is means you have a mech staying out in the open leaving itself vulnerable while you shoot your LRM's. That means 2 people required.

So you're saying, an LRM camper is really only worth half a normal player...?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

armyof1, on 24 May 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

I'm not sure you're even talking about how damage should or should not spread with lrms anymore, seems like you've gone into why lrms should be buffed or something similar.

I'm saying LRM's are in about as good a place as I've seen them. And we need to settle down and see where things are in a couple weeks when people stop being so damn complacent and stupid in matches.

And start equipping their mechs with AMS if they want to spend a lot of time in the open.

[Dude42]

Appogee, on 24 May 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

So you're saying, an LRM camper is really only worth half a normal player...?

Yep. And according to you the LRM player still needs a nerfbat to the dome.

[Appogee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

You are lying. And you've been doing it every since the patch. You hate LRM's, we get it. Go away.

Err, no. I came to the thread to report what I'd just seen.

By the way, I don't hate LRMs. They have a valid role as part of a balanced build. But I do find LRM boaters - who spend the entire game sitting behind rocks, letting their team do the work - kind of sad, frankly.

It's what n00bs do when they first play MechWarrior. But most grow out of it.

But those lobbing LRMs as they close to target, or while move to better engagement positions - no concern, it's fair game and good skills. Ditto the scouts and spotters - tip my hat to those light pilots who get in amongst it and give the heavies hell. It's a shame unskilled LRM boaters are able to leech off them.

Edited by Appogee, 24 May 2013 - 12:51 PM.