66 replies to this topic

[Pando]

Sheraf, on 25 May 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

I think C1 would better go with dual LRM 15+artemis, and 4 medium lasers, or you can try to fit a pair of large laser and 2 medium. Doesn't C1 have 2 missile hardpoints only?

Yes it's 1M hardpoint per arm. I've tried it, it's comparable. I've used 2x20's with Artemis since upgrading 15's dropping a few tonnes of ammo i didn't always use and 2ML's i didn't readily need. Using 2 large 2 medium i would dump the LRM's completely because at that point the tonnage required to toss a few tonnes of ammo is staggering when you could just load up on DHS, armor and a bigger standard engine. I felt the upgrades were a good trade. The tonnage of weapon systems used to run any LRM build and the reward associated with is...pathetic. I could run two erppc's and 2ssrm2s and pull way more damage and feel like I did something useful for my team.

I can run a stalker with 4 ppc's and 4ssrm2's 2x ams and maintain 600 damage a match with several kills and assists. Frequently having helped destroy all of the opposing team or had landed the killing blow on as many as 7.

[Sheraf]

Pando, on 25 May 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Yes it's 1M hardpoint per arm. I've tried it, it's comparable. I've used 2x20's with Artemis since upgrading 15's dropping a few tonnes of ammo i didn't always use and 2ML's i didn't readily need. Using 2 large 2 medium i would dump the LRM's completely because at that point the tonnage required to toss a few tonnes of ammo is staggering when you could just load up on DHS, armor and a bigger standard engine. I felt the upgrades were a good trade. The tonnage of weapon systems used to run any LRM build and the reward associated with is...pathetic. I could run two erppc's and 2ssrm2s and pull way more damage and feel like I did something useful for my team.

I can run a stalker with 4 ppc's and 4ssrm2's 2x ams and maintain 600 damage a match with several kills and assists. Frequently having helped destroy all of the opposing team or had landed the killing blow on as many as 7.

My C1 run on XL engine, 2x LRM15 artemis, 2 large laser, 2 medium. Yes, I don't have the armor to sit back and support fire, but I can fire the LRM as support for my large laser in 300m to 400m range. Now I use Stalker to do that job, don't play C1 anymore

Edited by Sheraf, 25 May 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Right now I'm trying to figure out if there is an issue with hitting targeted mechs in LOS.

Unless it was a graphical error. I was shooting at a mech on Alpine last night, and the missiles were falling to the side of him and seemingly doing no damage.

[Pando]

Sheraf, on 25 May 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

My C1 run on XL engine, 2x LRM15 artemis, 2 large laser, 2 medium. Yes, I don't have the armor to sit back and support fire, but I can fire the LRM as support for my large laser in 300m to 400m range. Now I use Stalker to do that job, don't play C1 anymore

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d23b78a82954132 - This load-out you mention would be possible and viable perhaps on a stalker. On a Catapult? I can't see how exactly especially with having 0 armor which would be required to make it anything near viable in terms of heat management.

Also, in this example you're running 2xALRM15's with 4 tonnes of ammo which puts the total tonnage required from launchers and ammunition to do a theoretical 252'ish damage at 20 tonnes which is over 75% of your total free tonnage...when you have armor.

Even if you make your suggested loadout somewhat make sense for a catapult; http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cb32c0514c42d63 it's still 18 tonnes worth of LRM equipment to possibly deal 134'ish damage. It's just not realistic to run 2 large 2 medium and 2 alrm15's on a catapult.

Edited by Pando, 25 May 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Sheraf]

Try this, no jumpet
CPLT-C1

That the load out I used on my Catapult before. I'm just behind the front line using LRM and laser to shoot directly, and it works for me

Edited by Sheraf, 25 May 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Dude42]

Diablobo, on 24 May 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Then why do they only do 1 damage (in TT) for EACH missile? 10 missiles spread over 10 places for one point a piece. If that's not getting hit by 10 flying bullets, I don't know what is.

You might want to see a doctor. He might be able to fix your speech problems.

Edit: the missiles do their entire damage to ONE spot, not separate areas. That's still one big bullet, the only difference is, the bullet does variable damage.

LOL. This guy... First off, go back and read your CBT rulebook. That's not how LRMs work. I find it funny you think that.

You might want to see a doctor. To see if they can reverse the lobotomy.

I'll just leave this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile

Edited by Dude42, 25 May 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Dude42]

Diablobo, on 25 May 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Splash damage was reduced from 1.8m to 0.05m. That's 180cm to 5cm.

CT is taking more damage than the rest of your components why? Because the CT is the largest part of a BattleMech. It's going to take the most hits out of a volley of missiles. The missiles are not told to target any part of a Mech, they're told to get into position and follow that path from start to finish. If your target turns their torso 90 degrees from incoming missiles, they're going to lose an arm before they get cored."


Ok, that is like explaining the chemical composition of urine. They need to explain why they are p\ssing on us, not what the urine is made of.

I'm starting to get that you won't shut up until missiles are removed. Go back to CoD.

[Moomtazz]

Pando, on 25 May 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d23b78a82954132 - This load-out you mention would be possible and viable perhaps on a stalker. On a Catapult? I can't see how exactly especially with having 0 armor which would be required to make it anything near viable in terms of heat management.

Also, in this example you're running 2xALRM15's with 4 tonnes of ammo which puts the total tonnage required from launchers and ammunition to do a theoretical 252'ish damage at 20 tonnes which is over 75% of your total free tonnage...when you have armor.

Even if you make your suggested loadout somewhat make sense for a catapult; http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cb32c0514c42d63 it's still 18 tonnes worth of LRM equipment to possibly deal 134'ish damage. It's just not realistic to run 2 large 2 medium and 2 alrm15's on a catapult.

You don't need all 4 jump jets, nor do you need 17 heat sinks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...86c67db489ae3de

Where do you get your "theoretical possible damage" numbers from?

[CravenMadness]

Seriously, are there people who are -still- getting sandy *** syndrome over long range missiles? If you can't find cover, you're a water-head who shouldn't have been decanted out of the bio-vat and for-damn-sure shouldn't have been given the right to pilot weapons of mass destruction. So go back to your scientists and have them reduce your proteins for potting material and give the keys to someone better equipped. If you are behind 'cover' and you turn towards that cover and look up and you can see the top of the 'cover' ... guess what? It's -NOT- 'cover'. You -are- going to get hit by a good 1/4 - 1/3 of the missile volley, from every volley coming at you from every angle. Maybe you thought you had 'cover' from a long range missile lock from the north, but you can be damn sure there's some coming at you from east or west with high likelihood. Which is -as it should be-. Center Torso is taking even the reduced splash damage because ... Guess what? Your shoulders, head, arms and legs are all *gasp* -attached- to your Center Torso and those little fireworks are hitting all around it.

[Kitane]

LRMs and SRMs are massively underperforming compared to TT.

Both missile systems are doing less damage per missile than in TT (0.9 vs 1.0, 1.5 vs 2.0). Both missile systems remain random in a game where all other weapons are able to fire with pinpoint precision at selected mech body parts.

The armor was doubled to compensate for pinpoint damage. And instead of increasing missile damage above TT values to compensate for buffed armor values and gimped accuracy relative to other weapons, missiles do actually less per hit.

Smart, really smart.

I don't even understand why SRMs have to spread out. I can understand why LRMs do it, but SRMs should fly in a straight line, launched in a rapid succession as a torrent of rockets. They would gain the same potential for precision fire as the rest of ingame weapons and the enemy would be able to distribute the damage by torso twisting.

[Svalfangr]

Sephlock, on 24 May 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

People are just lying. This one dude is claiming that 1 volley from an LRM20 mech will core his Raven 3L... They just don't want missiles to be viable because moving behind cover is SUCH a bother.

This a thousand times this.

Every thread which states missiles are OP does so through anecdotal evidence most of which can be easily picked through and proved wrong.

The day i see video of missiles being OP is the day i believe it.

Surprisingly enough when you actually play the game you realize missiles are a support weapon and all the LRM boats get stomped into the ground with just a little bit of thought and skill.

[Sheraf]

Dude42, on 25 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'm starting to get that you won't shut up until missiles are removed. Go back to CoD.

If they remove missile altogether, all the complains will go back to PPC until it is removed, then to AC, until it meets the same fate

[Menetius]

Just remove splash altogether and give LRM's a damage rate of 1.2-1.4 per missile.

[Sheraf]

Menetius, on 25 May 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Just remove splash altogether and give LRM's a damage rate of 1.2-1.4 per missile.

IF splash is removed then LRM damage back to 1.7 before all this stuff happens:)

[Diablobo]

Dude42, on 25 May 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

LOL. This guy... First off, go back and read your CBT rulebook. That's not how LRMs work. I find it funny you think that.

You might want to see a doctor. To see if they can reverse the lobotomy.

I'll just leave this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile

Ok, I plead being drunk at 2AM and not having played for over 20 years. Forgive me Back when I played, LRMs used to be split up into groups of 5 to be assigned to hit locations. I had even forgotten about the dividing by 5 thing. I'm awake now, so yeah, I see what you're saying. I still see 20 bullets hitting a target, not 20 grenades. Splash damage is for grenades, not LRMs.

I would be willing to bet that the devs are using the wrong CryEngine projectile. If they used a bullet instead of an explosive and could get it to fly right, the splash damage wouldn't be an issue.

And yes, I know missiles have explosives as their warheads, but in Battletech, there is no difference between a plain LRM 5 that has all missiles hit and an AC/5. NO SPLASH DAMAGE!

Edited by Diablobo, 25 May 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

LRMs are totally busted. They completely miss light mechs by a million miles and even largely miss moving assualt mechs out in the open.

[Tarl Cabot]

Kitane, on 25 May 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

LRMs and SRMs are massively underperforming compared to TT.

Both missile systems are doing less damage per missile than in TT (0.9 vs 1.0, 1.5 vs 2.0). Both missile systems remain random in a game where all other weapons are able to fire with pinpoint precision at selected mech body parts.

The armor was doubled to compensate for pinpoint damage. And instead of increasing missile damage above TT values to compensate for buffed armor values and gimped accuracy relative to other weapons, missiles do actually less per hit.

Smart, really smart.

I don't even understand why SRMs have to spread out. I can understand why LRMs do it, but SRMs should fly in a straight line, launched in a rapid succession as a torrent of rockets. They would gain the same potential for precision fire as the rest of ingame weapons and the enemy would be able to distribute the damage by torso twisting.

Question, have you actually played the boardgame?

1st, there is whether or not you actually hit.
2nd, how many will hit.
3rd, divided into groups of 5, where they hit.

http://mwomercs.com/...16#entry2103216

Spoiler

The Hotfix
What it addresses: The insane amount of damage missiles started doing including splash damage and something weird that caused said splash damage to spike through the roof.

How it used to work:
(Note: I'm going to use the term 'secondary component' below but you can read it as 'a component that did not get hit directly but is taking splash damage')

All missiles used to have a 4.0m splash damage radius that took into account the percentage of the volume of secondary components engulfed in the radius.

With the advent of smaller/tighter component groupings on the smaller Mechs, an issue arose where too much splash damage was being spread across those Mechs. Basically it turned into a hot mess.

What does the hotfix do? A number of things. First off, it reduces the splash damage radius from 4.0m (for both LRM/SRM) to 1.8m (LRM) and 1.3m (SRM/SSRM). This obviously reduces the amount of splash damage caused to secondary components.

Any location directly hit by a missile takes the full damage. Any secondary component hit by the splash damage radius takes splash damage based on how far the location is from the center of the explosion.

We also added a scaling factor of 0.4 to the amount of damage done to secondary components. From the impact point to the outer radius of splash damage, this factor of 0.4 drops linearly to 0.0. This means that if somehow magically the point of impact is so close to the secondary component, the maximum damage it would take from splash is WEAPON DAMAGE * 0.4 (that is 40% of weapon damage).

But Paul, you said you'd REMOVE splash damage!!!! I know I did, but here's the kicker and yet another part of the mystery of missile damage. We tried removing splash damage and it did exactly what you think it was going to do. Pinpoint on target damage. Cool right? Yes... but...

Doing this exposed a problem with the grouping/clustering of missiles. We now have a high percentage of any incoming missile targeting the CT. This is BAD.

Now our primary concern as to what is happening on the live servers is to curtail the incredibly high damage levels of missiles/explosions. To make the missile explosions/damage feel like they should and to keep the damage spread across a Mech, we kept the above mentioned splash damage work along with the following damage changes to missiles:
LRMs drop from 1.8 damage per missile to 0.7 damage per missile. SRMs drop from 2.5 damage per missile to 1.5 damage per missile.

DO NOT HIT REPLY TO FREAKOUT YET!
It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.

Missiles are STILL a very big threat to the target but just aren't doing these chart topping damage numbers.
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE: This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented.

Now, after the Hot patch March 21, 2013 the splash damage radius from 4.0 m to 1.8 m, with reducing damage being done in increments, starting at 40% of the initial warhead damage. (The new radius is now 0.05).

Are you able to answer how many times splash damage, in decreasing damage, was being applied? From what has been posted it is more than one time. It was and is a ripple effect. Now add multiple missiles to the equation and the overlapping splash damage is multiplied.

Imagine and lets make it simple LRM missile does 1pt of damage. Incremental splash damage with a radius of 1.8m (was this from the center of impact or an additional increase to the missile diameter?) is every 0.2m (imagine) with the damage starting at 40%. That is 8 times actual splash damage, in decreasing values, is being applied (9th is 0.0 damage).

1, 0.40, 0.35, 0.30, 0.25, 0.20, 0.15, 0.10, 0.05, 0.00 = 2.8pts damage, 1.8 is splash damage.

Smaller increment
1, 0.40, 0.30, 0.20, 0.10, 0.0 = 2.0pts damage, 1.0 is the splash damage

1, 0.40, 0.20, 0.00 = 1.6pts damage, 0.6 being the splash damage.

Again, besides the initial damage/missile, the initial splash damage starting at 40% of missile and the splash range (from center or additional increase on initial missile diameter), we do not know number of increments.

The difference between LRM and PPC/Gauss rifles/lasers? LRM do not require line of sight for by the shooter

[Nightcrept]

Funniest thing of all is that before the patch that broke the splash damage(--well it actually just exacerbated a broken mechanic--) missile damage was at 1.7-1.8 plus a small amount of splash damage, everyone used ams and the community overwhelmingly voted that it was about right. Ecm was introduced and missiles became useless.

When the broken mechanic was discovered chicken littles came out of the woodwork claiming the sky was falling and threw such a fit that pgi virtually removed missiles from the game.

And how many months have we been playing with a completely broken game due to that?
Some however love the one dimensional play style that this has created and are obviously fighting very hard to keep missiles in the *******.

And worse new players are being introduced to the game without lrms making their future reintroduction even more difficult.
This game is not going to turn out very good unless the devs grow a pair and reintroduce lrms with a bite to them.

Yes for a few weeks players will all flock to them like they always do to new weapons etc but without a viable lrm threat this game is just too one dimensional to be fun for long periods.

[Kitane]

Tarl Cabot, on 25 May 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Question, have you actually played the boardgame?

1st, there is whether or not you actually hit.
2nd, how many will hit.
3rd, divided into groups of 5, where they hit.

http://mwomercs.com/...16#entry2103216

Spoiler

The Hotfix
What it addresses: The insane amount of damage missiles started doing including splash damage and something weird that caused said splash damage to spike through the roof.

How it used to work:
(Note: I'm going to use the term 'secondary component' below but you can read it as 'a component that did not get hit directly but is taking splash damage')

All missiles used to have a 4.0m splash damage radius that took into account the percentage of the volume of secondary components engulfed in the radius.

With the advent of smaller/tighter component groupings on the smaller Mechs, an issue arose where too much splash damage was being spread across those Mechs. Basically it turned into a hot mess.

What does the hotfix do? A number of things. First off, it reduces the splash damage radius from 4.0m (for both LRM/SRM) to 1.8m (LRM) and 1.3m (SRM/SSRM). This obviously reduces the amount of splash damage caused to secondary components.

Any location directly hit by a missile takes the full damage. Any secondary component hit by the splash damage radius takes splash damage based on how far the location is from the center of the explosion.

We also added a scaling factor of 0.4 to the amount of damage done to secondary components. From the impact point to the outer radius of splash damage, this factor of 0.4 drops linearly to 0.0. This means that if somehow magically the point of impact is so close to the secondary component, the maximum damage it would take from splash is WEAPON DAMAGE * 0.4 (that is 40% of weapon damage).

But Paul, you said you'd REMOVE splash damage!!!! I know I did, but here's the kicker and yet another part of the mystery of missile damage. We tried removing splash damage and it did exactly what you think it was going to do. Pinpoint on target damage. Cool right? Yes... but...

Doing this exposed a problem with the grouping/clustering of missiles. We now have a high percentage of any incoming missile targeting the CT. This is BAD.

Now our primary concern as to what is happening on the live servers is to curtail the incredibly high damage levels of missiles/explosions. To make the missile explosions/damage feel like they should and to keep the damage spread across a Mech, we kept the above mentioned splash damage work along with the following damage changes to missiles:
LRMs drop from 1.8 damage per missile to 0.7 damage per missile. SRMs drop from 2.5 damage per missile to 1.5 damage per missile.

DO NOT HIT REPLY TO FREAKOUT YET!
It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.

Missiles are STILL a very big threat to the target but just aren't doing these chart topping damage numbers.
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE: This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented.

Now, after the Hot patch March 21, 2013 the splash damage radius from 4.0 m to 1.8 m, with reducing damage being done in increments, starting at 40% of the initial warhead damage. (The new radius is now 0.05).

Are you able to answer how many times splash damage, in decreasing damage, was being applied? From what has been posted it is more than one time. It was and is a ripple effect. Now add multiple missiles to the equation and the overlapping splash damage is multiplied.

Imagine and lets make it simple LRM missile does 1pt of damage. Incremental splash damage with a radius of 1.8m (was this from the center of impact or an additional increase to the missile diameter?) is every 0.2m (imagine) with the damage starting at 40%. That is 8 times actual splash damage, in decreasing values, is being applied (9th is 0.0 damage).

1, 0.40, 0.35, 0.30, 0.25, 0.20, 0.15, 0.10, 0.05, 0.00 = 2.8pts damage, 1.8 is splash damage.

Smaller increment
1, 0.40, 0.30, 0.20, 0.10, 0.0 = 2.0pts damage, 1.0 is the splash damage

1, 0.40, 0.20, 0.00 = 1.6pts damage, 0.6 being the splash damage.

Again, besides the initial damage/missile, the initial splash damage starting at 40% of missile and the splash range (from center or additional increase on initial missile diameter), we do not know number of increments.

The difference between LRM and PPC/Gauss rifles/lasers? LRM do not require line of sight for by the shooter

I didn't have the pleasure to play it, I've never heard of anyone having a copy of the boardgame in my country. Some copies probably made it, because I've seen one in a small shop, once. I did check the rules a while ago out of curiosity and again when I became interested in MW:Tactics. I didn't mention the hit calculation because that part has no impact on our "skill-based" aiming.

What I don't get is:

- Base damage per missile is less than in TT.
- No (relevant) splash damage anymore to compensate for low damage of a missile.
- The missile system suffered more from the transition from TT to the game, because the increased precision of human player cannot improve them or reduce their damage distribution, unlike other weapons. Neither LRMs nor (after this week) SRMs can be aimed more accurately than "fire at the mech's silhouette and hope most missiles will hit it".

It makes them impractical and weak weapons, even with their glorious arc and indirect damage potential. It makes most LRM dependant mechs in medium/heavy category a waste of tonnage, only assaults can launch enough missiles to actually do something to the target with several volleys.

[Lightfoot]

Diablobo, on 24 May 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

Ok, so if splash damage and flightpaths are fixed, and missiles still suck....what does that leave?

Medium Lasers?