30 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Ever since closed beta, this pattern has persisted:

LRMs are worthless
- A change happens -
LRMs are too powerful
- A change happens -
LRMs are worthless
- Wait 1-3 months, repeat -

I'll admit this got me over defensive, to the point I was defending LRMs in the last pre-fix patch. However, that was because I saw the inevitable coming at me: A serious over-nerf again.

These wild, multi-changes need to stop with weapon balance. Having given them a fair shake (I later said as much on my last LRM thread), they needed the following:

* The blast damage fixed so it doesn't go into the CT regardless of hit location
* Artemis IV shouldn't work without LOS
* A slight reduction to the arc

Of course, the first one was the red alert sign. Because, once again, they ruin splash (without fixing it so it doesn't bias the CT so bad) and for the double whammy don't replace it with any damage.

So now instead of a missile doing slightly too much CT damage coming down slightly too high, we have one that is back to doing damn near no damage. Nowhere near enough to justify the 11+ tons per gun or the several tons of ammo per launcher you need to maintain them.

Of course, what is the result? Everyone is falling back to Gauss & PPC Meta. If they aren't, they're losing to people who are. We had all of a ONE DAY relief break from this crap, because LRMs were keeping them in check - good Gauss & PPC teams were STILL dominating the LRM teams, mind you, during this period. However, it did become a "perfect imbalance" almost, if LRMs had some MINOR reductions.

Seriously PGI. If you can't fix your splash damage bugs, just increase missile damage or something. But stop introducing usable missiles and then yanking them away every single time. It's really, really getting old. They were almost worth their weight-in-tonnage like the other good weapons are and needed some SLIGHT adjustment, but once again, a hammer was taken to it.

The worst part is, I have no idea when or if they will be fixing this situation. They have some odd ideas lately about what is working and what isn't, and how to buff things (Did you seriously reduce the Crit chance on MGs with the damage buff? They're still terribly UP, why the hell would you nerf them while buffing them? I am horrendously confused), and when they do fix something, they don't bring in the scalpel - they bring in the sledgehammer.

If the LRM buffs were introduced at a reasonable pace - Arc buffs one week, damage another - and debuffs were handled the same way - this wouldn't be such a big deal. But completely smashing a core weapon system every single time it starts to get a little too good - instead of TUNING it - is really really frustrating.

This is probably the 6th or 7th time this has happened over the year. By this time next week if they are not damage buffed in some way, every single person will be back to Gauss & PPC, which was boring everyone to death - even the people who are good at playing it.

I'm sorry PGI but the patch notes state people should still experience "serious pain" if caught in the open. They do not. They don't experience anywhere remotely close to the level of pain that they'd have from a Gauss or PPC in the same situation. And until they do, that's what people will use, and people will constantly complain that the PPC is overpowered instead of fixing the stupid missiles and ... arrrgh.

/Rant off.

EDIT: And yes, of course if you have a group of 4 Stalkers boating LRMs they'll do heavy damage. Better than before, in fact. But you know what would happen with 4 Stalkers boating PPCs in the same position? They'd kill you, not wound you - and in half the time. So no, I don't want to hear about how super awesome your packs of LRM assaults are. An assault boating ANYTHING should be dangerous.

EDIT 2: I forgot to bring up the fact that the AMS was massively buffed, which was fine when missiles were incredibly damaging but now makes the .2 damage increase look even sillier.

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 May 2013 - 12:57 AM.

[jeffsw6]

They might as well delete LRMs from the game. They can't figure out how to make them reasonable without being O/P.

While they are at it, remove the following other weapons that are too complicated for them to get right, either being very under-powered to the point of almost total uselessness on any build, or being over-powered and useful outside their intended roles:

• Machine Gun
  
• Flamer
  
• Small Pulse Laser
  
• Large Pulse Laser
  
• PPC
  
• ERPPC
  
• AC/10
  
• Gauss Rifle
  
• SRM

That leaves about 8 weapons that are reasonably well-balanced around the Medium Laser.

[Vassago Rain]

The ride never ends.

[Victor Morson]

PPC/ER PPC/Gauss are balanced. They were held in check by missiles. Essentially without those, we're trying to play "Rock, Paper, Scissors" without Scissors. That means everyone is obviously going to play Paper. It doesn't mean Paper is OP in RPS, now does it?

SRMs need a buff badly at the moment, PLs in general need some tweaks (I keep pushing for faster-discharge time, same DPS)..

Flamers had a good idea (Heat that stacks, 90% cap) but in practice it's worse than before; AC/10 is trash and you forgot the LBX/10. MGs I find hilarious because while buffing them, they still had to nerf them, making me wonder if they understand what a buff is.

EDIT: As a sidenote, LBX/10 are vastly improved from what they were, but I have not given them enough testing to talk smack about them since the last buff. I still think they might be inferior, but I will reserve judgement on these until I can test them in way more detail and a controlled environment.

Edited by Victor Morson, 24 May 2013 - 10:49 PM.

[Deathlike]

If the first ride wasn't enough, you'll get another free ride.

Whooosh!

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

The day PGI gets weapons balanced / working even remotely in the ballpark range of decent is the day I...


...uhhh...


...Yeah pgi just sucks at balancing weapons/equip.

Edited by mwhighlander, 24 May 2013 - 10:50 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Sniper weapons are not held in check by missiles. Sniper weapons are held in check by brawling weapons having significantly better DPS at short range. Right now there is no brawling weapon that fulfills this.

[Victor Morson]

mwhighlander, on 24 May 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

The day PGI gets weapons balanced / working even remotely in the ballpark range of decent is the day I...

...uhhh...

...Yeah pgi just sucks at balancing weapons/equip.

The sad part is I don't think they're too terrible at it, but rather, the way they've been going about it.

Like I was saying, I think if they'd introduced each little buff/nerf one at a time every week, you'd have a lot more constructive feedback to go off of and data to mine to get an idea how they're performing.

Instead, they hit them with these triple buffs/double nerfs that throw them so wildly out of whack.. and there is a reason for this. ANY balancing you do based on guessing and not game play is pretty much just that: A shot in the dark guess.

My point is we shouldn't have to wait until next month or more for the next weapon change, to ANY weapon. We should be seeing steady, small improvements.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 May 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Sniper weapons are not held in check by missiles. Sniper weapons are held in check by brawling weapons having significantly better DPS at short range. Right now there is no brawling weapon that fulfills this.

Its how MW3/4/LL balanced it out, and it worked. Granted, those games had brawling weapons that were worth a damn

(Compare an MW4 LBX10 to a MW:O LBX10. MW:O's weapon mechanics turned a deadly weapon into a ******* joke)

[Victor Morson]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 May 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Sniper weapons are not held in check by missiles. Sniper weapons are held in check by brawling weapons having significantly better DPS at short range. Right now there is no brawling weapon that fulfills this.

I disagree that Snipers weren't held in check by missiles to a degree (when the arc is good enough), when we're talking traditional roles you're right - really it should be Snipers -> Missiles -> Brawlers -> Repeat.

That said, I do agree brawlers need a big buff. SRMs are in the same boat as LRMs without their splash, but it's less noticeable due to more damage per missile. I would love to see a viable AC/10 and a returned to glory SRM. Really any argument I've made about the LRM needing a steady pace of small corrections applies to all of the weapons that aren't seeing effective use.

[Lefty Lucy]

Victor Morson, on 24 May 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

I disagree that Snipers weren't held in check by missiles to a degree (when the arc is good enough), when we're talking traditional roles you're right - really it should be Snipers -> Missiles -> Brawlers -> Repeat.

Any reduction in sniping was not due to missiles being effective against snipers, it was simply due to sniper players switching to missiles, because that's what was strongest for a short time.

[jeffsw6]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 May 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Sniper weapons are not held in check by missiles. Sniper weapons are held in check by brawling weapons having significantly better DPS at short range. Right now there is no brawling weapon that fulfills this.

Or alternatively, by sniper weapons having worse performance at short-range. Sadly the Gauss Rifle is still mega-deadly at any range, the PPC is still mega-deadly at 90m (if you can even get that close) and so on. The ERPPC really is the only one that isn't insanely O/P at brawling range and only because it can't be fired that often without the mech over-heating, which is why we see a lot of light and medium mechs carrying 1 or 2 ERPPC -- because they can strike a few times and then escape to cool down. However the ERPPC is way too deadly at extreme range. I just love having my armor turn orange IN MY SPAWN POINT on River City seconds into the game.

My favorite brawler right now is a Heavy Metal with the following equipped: 2 PPC, 1 LL, 1 UAC5, 1 AC5, 1 JJ. I don't snipe with it, but the PPCs are incredibly useful for brawling as long as you have some other weapons to go with it in case the enemy face-hugs. By the time someone face-hugs me, I have produced so much heat that I can't fire three energy-weapons anymore anyway; so there is really no penalty for me having those 2 PPCs, but a huge benefit.

Edited by jeffsw6, 24 May 2013 - 11:06 PM.

[El Bandito]

I preferred LRM spammers over PPC spammers any given day. Last 2 months were ridonculous.

[Victor Morson]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 May 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Any reduction in sniping was not due to missiles being effective against snipers, it was simply due to sniper players switching to missiles, because that's what was strongest for a short time.

I don't know; I was finding that there was a place for both on the field. The teams that used the LRM period to their advantage still took several direct fire 'mechs and I even saw the return of Splatcats rather heavily. I think a lot of it had to do with people switching up styles as a 3rd option was made viable to them.

I know many people in my unit that are great snipers swapped just because they felt it was the first time it was viable to switch in a while. There was a definite harmony to the balance of snipers / LRMs there, with both having situational advantages.

Also, I have to say, I really enjoyed the pace of the game during the LRM fest. Namely, most games were tense movements up to cover, digging in, then moving to more cover. It was way more deliberate and strategic because you had reason to fear getting caught in the open.

With LRMs at 0.9 and laughable splash, there is nothing to fear.

[Kin3ticX]

LRMs are totally broken again. I was in a 3-man group with 2 trebuchets and 1 catapult with 2xLRM 15's each. The 3 of us unloaded at least 1/3 of our ammo on a HGN and it WOULD NOT DIE. Then on a Stalker which just laughed it off(again...would not die). I dumped atleast 4 tons of LRM ammo on solid targets with tag and only got 200 damage....that is 720 missiles doing 200 damage. We will not be using LRM's until they are at least worth their weight.

Hard to say if the shots are plain just not registering or some game mechanic was changed with surprise consequences.

[Soy]

if you listen really closely at 02:48, you can hear someone dying from LRMs in the background

Edited by Soy, 24 May 2013 - 11:27 PM.

[Franchi]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 May 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Sniper weapons are not held in check by missiles. Sniper weapons are held in check by brawling weapons having significantly better DPS at short range. Right now there is no brawling weapon that fulfills this.

DING DING DING We have a WINNER!

Before the retardation that is splash damage:

SRM boaters (CN9-A and the A) were every snipers worst nightmare, and their existence as viable mechs made people think twice about bringing an all sniper build. In turn snipers made people afraid to run the CN9-A and A1 becasue getting your robit blown up without firing a shot sucks!

They were perfectly balanced around one another, whomever played best won. They are both built to feed of the weaknesses of the other and kept either from becoming to prolific.





Now the sniper holds all the cards, he can shoot long before the SRM boat can shoot him, and even if the SRM boat closes it is STILL evenly or out gunned.

This killed the short range/ambush predator, since the snipers no longer have to fear a mech getting inside of them and wasting them they are free to boat away. this leads to more and more piling on.

Edited by Franchi, 24 May 2013 - 11:40 PM.

[Zaptruder]

The big problem with LRMs primarily exist in terms of how they're handling the pathing.

i.e. you have an LRM batch - the batch has a flight arc, then a target point that is in the middle of the mech. The LRMs rotate around the line aiming straight at the target point on the mech.

The tighter the spread, the more LRMs cluster around the CT of the mech.


What they need to do is rethink the way LRMs are handling.

Current flight arc is fine (although a little graceless looking). But around the 100m mark, the missles need to be 'rolled' for - each missle needs to lock onto a random body part. Of course they don't do the streak thing with 360 degree per second turning radiuses, but instead does the LRM thing with the limited degree per second turning (number is tweaked so that it flies towards the rolled for locations on a stationary mech with a high degree of regularity).

The rolled for numbers should account for relative max armor proportions, so as to not 'preferentially' destroy arms or legs.

In practice, the missles might fly towards various locations, but player skill can still mitigate or spread the damage around preferentially (i.e. turning side on will cause the target locations to align, but the missles will hit the arm and side torsos first - or jumping might be able to deviate slow turning LRMs towards legs rather than torso). That is, LRM damage can be mitigated by skill, movement and cover.

When this is in place, damage can be bumped to 1.5 per missle, no or minimal splash, and flight speeds can be increased to maybe... 150.

Artemis then adds flight speed on top of that, instead of screwing around with the tightness spread - so that more missles are likely to hit.

[Faktopus Osis]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 May 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Sniper weapons are not held in check by missiles. Sniper weapons are held in check by brawling weapons having significantly better DPS at short range. Right now there is no brawling weapon that fulfills this.

Agreed. I run a CTF-2X with dual SRM-4s/ triple LPLs and an XL 340. I AM a brawler, it's why I play the game. The quick thinking, gotta twist or get die play style is extremely fun for me.

If I'm allowed a map that plays to my strengths: River City, Canyon Network, Frozen City. . . and I do everything within my power to draw mechs into a close range battle: I usually do decent-great. THAT BEING SAID: The only maps I seem to roll are the enormous, long range monsters.

From what I've been dealing with, LRMs pose little-no threat comparatively, even not running AMS. Sight lines are easy to break unless I'm in the middle of a field. If they hit, they hurt, but seeing incoming missile doesn't do anything more than annoy me because now I have to find cover or take unnecessary damage. In my eyes, it's akin to a kid throwing rocks from across the street. Easy to dodge, hurts if it hits, but as soon as you get in arm's reach he crys and runs for his mommy atlas.

I feel as if I should also mention that the only real danger from LRM boats is the sheer number of missiles they carry. Constant fire for a full match will get hits somewhere, on someone. At the moment it's my only gripe- the stalkers carrying thousands of missiles in their magical/ multidimensional internal slots. Because, to be honest, I don't see how all those missiles fit in there.

Now snipers: They are my nightmare. Unless I've got an ally to keep them distracted while I close in to dance, I will die. If for no other reason than the giant barrel that doesn't go away when there's no ballistic weapon makes a nice aiming point. Sure, I can spread damage and turn, but then I'm left with 50% armor on all surfaces and now have internal damage. And when I do close in (to 0-300m), unless they're running standard PPCs alone, they're still doing full damage, but I am better at brawling than most of them, so I come out on top in about 80% of the 1 on 1 fights. Just because I hit more, can aim while still being evasive, and have a firepower of 42. (essentially 4 ERPPCs without the insane heat) I know that lasers spread damage more than ppcs, but most snipers spend the whole fight staring right at me and waiting for the shot to line up, giving me plenty of time to snap-fire-snap back and sacrifice armor instead of internal damage.

Not to mention that many of them panic and can't aim inside of 400m

Honestly, the only way I see to eliminate the erppc boating would be to limit the number of that kind of weapon in a mech, as in setting a max of 2, with those 2 taking away your ability to run a gauss rifle or something, but nobody wants to limit the builds like that, including me. About the only thing the devs could do would be to put more close range maps into the rotation, so that snipers know that their next 5/8 maps aren't guaranteed to be tourmaline or alpine.

I see the biggest problem with snipers being the sheer number of PPC/gauss cheese, and having more brawling maps will cut that number, simply because they are uncertain if they'll get something worth running those weapons on.

[Victor Morson]

Faktopus, on 25 May 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Agreed. I run a CTF-2X with dual SRM-4s/ triple LPLs and an XL 340. I AM a brawler, it's why I play the game. The quick thinking, gotta twist or get die play style is extremely fun for me.

...

I see the biggest problem with snipers being the sheer number of PPC/gauss cheese, and having more brawling maps will cut that number, simply because they are uncertain if they'll get something worth running those weapons on.

You listed a horrible build on a really bad variant, but call other builds cheese? That's a bit iffy.

Besides, PPC & Gauss are not the issue here. The lack of viable alternatives are, and right now, we're once again deprived of one.

EDIT: If you're wondering why it's bad, the launcher can't push all those missiles and LPLs are generally lackluster currently. Not the best variant for brawling right now. You'd be better off in a medium sporting regular Large with launchers sufficient to push the SRMs in one strike.

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 May 2013 - 12:10 AM.