20 replies to this topic

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I'm going to keep this short and sweet.

We see more Heavies than Mediums because they are so close in movement speed, and the Heavies can pack bigger guns and more armor.

Heres my proposition. Slow Assaults and Heavies (sans the DRG, AWS, VTR because theyre supposed to be faster than their counterparts) down.

If Mediums (and Lights, for the sake of the argument) were the only mechs capable of going over 70kph, I guarantee you we would see more Mediums in combat. I dont see many Mediums in games anymore because, in all reality, why bring a HBK to do what a CTF can do better in almost every way?

Heres the proposition simplified. Granted there would be differences between each category of mech (some mediums go faster than others, etc)

Lights: Top Speeds - 155kph
Mediums: Top Speeds - 120kph
Heavies: Top Speeds - 70kph (exception DRG)
Assaults: Top Speeds - 60kph (exceptions AWS, VTR)
TL;DR: ^^^^^^^

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 25 May 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Inflatable Fish]

This, plus perhaps a critical look at mech sizes (right now, mediums in relation to lights are of mathematically impossible proportions,) and we'd be on a good path to making mediums viable.


Also, I do believe we have no Victors in game at this point.

Edited by Inflatable Fish, 25 May 2013 - 03:48 PM.

[The Cheese]

Inflatable Fish, on 25 May 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Also, I do believe we have no Victors in game at this point.

Not yet, but it's been announced.

Being too slow isn't the medium class' only problem. They're also outgunned by practically everything. Even some lights give them a run for firepower. They also have armour that gets shredded in two salvos by just about any boat on the field.

Most of them are also freaking enormous. I believe that this issue is so bad that if the sizes were all brought in line with say, the hunchback, we'd see a lot more trebs and cents on the field.

Edited by The Cheese, 25 May 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

The Cheese, on 25 May 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Not yet, but it's been announced.

Being too slow isn't the medium class' only problem. They're also outgunned by practically everything. Even some lights give them a run for firepower. They also have armour that gets shredded in two salvos by just about any boat on the field.

Most of them are also freaking enormous. I believe that this issue is so bad that if the sizes were all brought in line with say, the hunchback, we'd see a lot more trebs and cents on the field.

I agree about size, but Im pretty sure PGi has already stated they're not resizing anything.
I'm saying, a CN9-AL that goes 98kph and packs 30 Firepower looks pretty good compared to an AC40 Jager that only goes 70kph

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 25 May 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[Fate 6]

The Cheese, on 25 May 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Not yet, but it's been announced.

Being too slow isn't the medium class' only problem. They're also outgunned by practically everything. Even some lights give them a run for firepower. They also have armour that gets shredded in two salvos by just about any boat on the field.

Most of them are also freaking enormous. I believe that this issue is so bad that if the sizes were all brought in line with say, the hunchback, we'd see a lot more trebs and cents on the field.

They are outgunned by lights because they have to take standard engines due to their size. Need smaller models.

They are light on armor compared to heavies...? It's not too bad. It seems light becuase there are 1000 assaults per game

[The Cheese]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 May 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

I agree about size, but Im pretty sure PGi has already stated they're not resizing anything.
I'm saying, a CN9-AL that goes 98kph and packs 30 Firepower looks pretty good compared to an AC40 Jager that only goes 70kph

On paper, I agree. On the field, that Jager will maul the Cent.

Spoiler

It wouldn't be the first time that they've stated something then gone back on it. Only difference is that I'd say this one would be universally welcomed.

Fate 6, on 25 May 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

They are light on armor compared to heavies...? It's not too bad. It seems light becuase there are 1000 assaults per game

Maybe true. I believe they seemed sturdier in the past because of the lack of HSR. I think they're just another thing that needs tweaking now that we can all aim reliably.

Edited by The Cheese, 25 May 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[NRP]

My newly elited 9 ML Hunchback 4P laughs at this thread. Quite frankly, it's the last thing Jagers, Cataphracts, Catapults, Awesomes, and Highlanders want to see coming around a corner. Stalkers and Atlases too, if they got some battle damage. And no one shoots my right torso off.

[The Cheese]

NRP, on 25 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

My newly elited 9 ML Hunchback 4P laughs at this thread. Quite frankly, it's the last thing Jagers, Cataphracts, Catapults, Awesomes, and Highlanders want to see coming around a corner. Stalkers and Atlases too, if they got some battle damage. And no one shoots my right torso off.

The 4P is an exception to the rule. It's reasonably fast, packs a LOT of firepower for it's weight, and it's a hunchback, so it's properly medium sized.

Make all the mediums fit this model, and we're set.

Edited by The Cheese, 25 May 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

NRP, on 25 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

My newly elited 9 ML Hunchback 4P laughs at this thread. Quite frankly, it's the last thing Jagers, Cataphracts, Catapults, Awesomes, and Highlanders want to see coming around a corner. Stalkers and Atlases too, if they got some battle damage. And no one shoots my right torso off.

But it's the 4P, one of the few truly viable mediums.

The 9M. The best Awesome. You're not really disproving what I'm saying.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 25 May 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[FupDup]

As somebody who is grinding Trebs right now, I approve of this thread.


It's pretty sad that I can see eye-to-eye with an Atlas on flat terrain. Although, the Treb can at least hold XL safely due to having a huge CT...

Edited by FupDup, 25 May 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[NachoFoot]

Someone else posted that assaults = big damage = more cbills.

Break that combo and you see more mediums.

[Inflatable Fish]

The Cheese, on 25 May 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

The 4P is an exception to the rule. It's reasonably fast, packs a LOT of firepower for it's weight, and it's a hunchback, so it's properly medium sized.

Make all the mediums fit this model, and we're set.

A commando weighs 20 tons. A hunchback weighs 50. By proportion alone, not counting the "beefiness" of the chassis, a hunchie should be only about a third taller than a commando - a quarter if you count the "beef."

So even the hunchbacks are too big at this moment.


On the point of speed, I think what mediums could use is an universal buff to turn and twist speeds, to keep up with the lights' manoeuverability. The run speeds are roughly in the right place, but a well piloted light will pick a medium apart any time.

Edited by Inflatable Fish, 25 May 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

No, we wouldn't.
We see more basecamping. You honestly think people would go medium for speed, when they still can't carry guns worth a damn?

Mediums need to be good, and other mechs don't need to be worse.

[Necroconvict]

Yeah Cents do look kinda big, but the Wang, and the Cent A really pack a punch, I eat Atlai for breakfast. The double AC 20 mechs.. not so much.

[YueFei]

Maybe giving Medium mechs greater agility would do the trick, instead of upping their engine limits for a higher top speed. Give Medium mechs a similar kind of acceleration/deceleration and turn/twist speed that light mechs have. That way, it would make it more difficult to focus damage onto a single spot on a Medium mech.

Mediums are supposed to be viable in this setting, you could make that happen if a single well-piloted medium getting into brawling range with a heavy could win in a duel. Not because he could stay in the heavy's blind spot 100% of the time, but because he could time his salvo to hit the heavy in the rear armor plates, and then torso twist to shield himself when the heavy manages to get him in its sights momentarily.

[Tennex]

I think they should try to give Mediums better turn rate/acceleration/decel etc first.
Better handling characteristics.

while also nerfing the heavy's handling. (if they really have to as a heavy plyaer)



Mech speed is an intrinsic part of the game, set by lore. i'd rather see that as a last resort tweek.

Edited by Tennex, 26 May 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[Tennex]

The Cheese, on 25 May 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Most of them are also freaking enormous. I believe that this issue is so bad that if the sizes were all brought in line with say, the hunchback, we'd see a lot more trebs and cents on the field.

agreed. the treb and cent have also done worse in all of the tornaments, compared to the smaller hunch and blackjack(even though blackjack is lighter)

size is a huge factor holding back the cent and treb

Edited by Tennex, 26 May 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Adridos]

The Cheese, on 25 May 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Being too slow isn't the medium class' only problem. They're also outgunned by practically everything. Even some lights give them a run for firepower. They also have armour that gets shredded in two salvos by just about any boat on the field.

TL;DR: Mediums are broken by mechlab, because it allows lights to have as much guns as they have and heavies to match the speed they have.

[Fate 6]

The Cheese, on 25 May 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

It wouldn't be the first time that they've stated something then gone back on it. Only difference is that I'd say this one would be universally welcomed.

This

Tennex, on 26 May 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

agreed. the treb and cent have also done worse in all of the tornaments, compared to the smaller hunch and blackjack(even though blackjack is lighter)

size is a huge factor holding back the cent and treb

Well, we definitely can't look at this tournament for numbers because the Cent and Treb rely on missiles and they are pretty questionable right now. The Cent is especially in a pretty rough place.

[Keifomofutu]

Tennex, on 26 May 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

I think they should try to give Mediums better turn rate/acceleration/decel etc first.
Better handling characteristics.

while also nerfing the heavy's handling. (if they really have to as a heavy plyaer)



Mech speed is an intrinsic part of the game, set by lore. i'd rather see that as a last resort tweek.

The average speeds mechs are pulling ingame are not supported by lore. The 86km/h heavies you see everywhere should be very rare. It would not break my heart to see them limited to 70km/h. And perhaps assaults scaled back to 55km/h. Back in beta the mediums got reeled back from going 100km/h because it was felt to be negatively affecting the game. But the heavies weren't given the same treatment. It's not necessarily mediums going too fast that is the problem but rather heavies going too fast.

The trouble with mediums trying to go really fast is the heavy engine weights put the really fast meds at a similar firepower level to lights but at a much bigger size.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 26 May 2013 - 09:39 AM.