68 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Karr285, on 25 May 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

go in training grounds They always damage the CT of EVERY MECH. and they annihilate mediums too, so yea what now? and are very effective against heavies and assaults

haha and you're calling people noobs?

Training Grounds is broken entirely, it has no basis in the real game right now

lol

[Budor]

I like how its always the bads crying about lock-on weapon nerfs...

Edited by Budor, 26 May 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[Egomane]

Budor, on 26 May 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

I like how its always the bads crying against lock-on weapon nerfs...

This forum could be such a nice place if these insults and flamebaiting would simply stop. Consider this a warning for everyone!!

[Carrioncrows]

blinkin, on 25 May 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

they should be light mech killers, just not an "i win" button.

That's a problem for me and a seriously bad mistake wen you attempt to balance weapons.

We can already see the product that line of throught has wrought
Machine guns should be a crit component killer
Flamers should be a crit component killer
LB10-X should be a crit component killer

I disagree with all of that, there SHOULDN'T be weapons that are build for a purpose. All weapons should be equally viable, whether you are using them against a Assault or a light mech. And mostly that is the case.

Balance the weapon first, then it's up to the user on how effective it is.

Budor, on 26 May 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

I like how its always the bads crying against lock-on weapon nerfs...

Not everyone pilots an assault mech 24/7

[Livewyr]

Carrioncrows, on 26 May 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

I disagree with all of that, there SHOULDN'T be weapons that are build for a purpose. All weapons should be equally viable, whether you are using them against a Assault or a light mech. And mostly that is the case.

They are equally viable, SSRMs don't pick out an Awesome and do more damage because it's an Awesome and not an Atlas.

SSRMs do the same amount of damage to whatever mech they hit- which they hit in several different areas (arms, legs, CT) and that's very apparent on an assault mech. The SSRM hits the assault mech's leg, the mech is large enough that the explosion damages only the leg. The SSRM hit's a light;s leg, which is significantly shorter and closer to the CT of the mech by virtue of the mech's size, the CT will probably take damage from the splash..

This is because the light mech is SMALLER, not because the missile has up'd its damage because it was hitting a light mech. And I find this a good thing; because that very same small profile that gives lights an advantage against most every other weapon, is a weakness to this one.

(Just like the Atlas is more vulnerable to LRMs and DoT weapons because its large slow moving frame.)

Edited by Livewyr, 26 May 2013 - 04:14 AM.

[Budor]

Carrioncrows, on 26 May 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

Not everyone pilots an assault mech 24/7

I play hero mechs most off the time, wang in 5/10 games. I would love to play the TDK but once you run into anything with streaks its over = broken.

[Necroconvict]

Egomane, on 26 May 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

This forum could be such a nice place if these insults and flamebaiting would simply stop. Consider this a warning for everyone!!

The big man has a point, *looks around* (wait crap I think I do this sometimes, son of a snow blower)

Budor, on 26 May 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

I like how its always the bads crying about lock-on weapon nerfs...

It isn't a goods vs bads thing Budor honestly. It is posts they have made themselves, about their weapons, and their patches. In truth SRMs, and SSRMs should do the same damage per missile. Right now they do not. This isn't crying, this is a widely known fact. They will get to it eventually many of us are sure, we just hope that eventually is sooner than later lol.

[Necroconvict]

Livewyr, on 26 May 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

They are equally viable, SSRMs don't pick out an Awesome and do more damage because it's an Awesome and not an Atlas.

SSRMs do the same amount of damage to whatever mech they hit- which they hit in several different areas (arms, legs, CT) and that's very apparent on an assault mech. The SSRM hits the assault mech's leg, the mech is large enough that the explosion damages only the leg. The SSRM hit's a light;s leg, which is significantly shorter and closer to the CT of the mech by virtue of the mech's size, the CT will probably take damage from the splash..

This is because the light mech is SMALLER, not because the missile has up'd its damage because it was hitting a light mech. And I find this a good thing; because that very same small profile that gives lights an advantage against most every other weapon, is a weakness to this one.

(Just like the Atlas is more vulnerable to LRMs and DoT weapons because its large slow moving frame.)

So Live, are you then currently content that wherever weapons like the LRM hit, it also hits your center torso? I get hit in the back, so somehow the explosive damage also wraps around my mech, to connect with my center torso?

[Brawnfet]

Livewyr, on 25 May 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

B: They always damage the CT on light mechs because all the different target points are closer together.. the mech is SMALLER. (That same attribute that gives them an advantage against every other weapon, works against them with streaks... explosions don't scale themselves to the size of the target..)

This is a pretty good reason to remove splash from missiles.
From what I understand, streaks already target multiple sections of the mech as opposed to just the CT. Given that, the splash seems to be working contrary to the clear design goals for streaks. Secondly, this accomplishes what the splash was supposed to be doing anyway, spread damage.
Ideally, there would be alot of patches to test streaks without splash but varying increased damage values. Unfortunately, PGI doesn't patch often enough to make this possible.

[El Bandito]

Just make the damn SRMs viable by buffing their damage and fixing their flight path. Then the brawlers will arrive, Splatcat will own Streakcat and everything is groovy again.

[Brawnfet]

Livewyr, on 26 May 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

This is because the light mech is SMALLER, not because the missile has up'd its damage because it was hitting a light mech. And I find this a good thing; because that very same small profile that gives lights an advantage against most every other weapon, is a weakness to this one.

They already have homing, they don't need a mechanic that lessens a skill valued in the game such as torso twisting to avoid damage to vulnerable sections.

[Livewyr]

Necroconvict, on 26 May 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

So Live, are you then currently content that wherever weapons like the LRM hit, it also hits your center torso? I get hit in the back, so somehow the explosive damage also wraps around my mech, to connect with my center torso?

I am in agreement with splash damage hitting where ever the splash goes. (If a platoon in an open field starts getting shelled [4 shells for shiggles] without direct hits, but within the blast radius of all four shells, they get hit 4 times.)

I'm not in agreement with explosions wrapping around and doing damage to the opposite side of a mech.

(If it hits the rear of a leg, and the splash range reaches a CT or torso, it should only do damage to the RCT or RRT/RLT.. nothing on the front of the mech. (I've noticed there is still a lot of damage transfer to the front of mechs with many weapons, that is something that needs fixed in general.)

What I *do* want is them to adjust the type of splash. (Right now it seems to do full damage at the point of contact, then splash damage in rings around it- I'd rather it did flat rate missile damage over the entire area. EX. .9 dmg missile hits RT, CT, and LT (but it actually connects with the CT: it should do either:
RT: 0.3 CT: 0.3 LT: 0.3 or RT: 0.2 CT 0.5 LT 0.2

That way it isn't doing extra damage, but it's still taking advantage of a unique splash mechanic in order to weaken overall armor or do crithunting on exposed internals.

What I don't want, is a homing aerial LBX 5,10, 15, 20.. that would actually be more devastating withTAG and artemis, or completely pointless without them. Splash, done properly, is the way to go.

Brawnfet, on 26 May 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

This is a pretty good reason to remove splash from missiles.
From what I understand, streaks already target multiple sections of the mech as opposed to just the CT. Given that, the splash seems to be working contrary to the clear design goals for streaks. Secondly, this accomplishes what the splash was supposed to be doing anyway, spread damage.
Ideally, there would be alot of patches to test streaks without splash but varying increased damage values. Unfortunately, PGI doesn't patch often enough to make this possible.

Read above (applies to splash damage in general- including SRMs/SSRMS.

Brawnfet, on 26 May 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

They already have homing, they don't need a mechanic that lessens a skill valued in the game such as torso twisting to avoid damage to vulnerable sections.

I think this would be solved with my answer the first point. I don't think splash should damage where it can't really reach.

[Thorqemada]

blinkin, on 25 May 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

some prefer skim though. i personally would like whole streaks.

trolling aside, i don't think reducing damage is the answer. i would like them to require effort that is roughly on par with most other weapons that can be used for brawling. unless you are a complete moron, once you have lock it is incredibly easy to maintain lock (you just have too sweep the cross hairs across the target once in a while). imagine if the medium pulse laser did half damage any time you just barely bumped the target with the beam (my accuracy with lasers lingers around the 90% mark, so bumping a target with the beam is not difficult). even a tenth of a second is enough to guarantee full damage with streaks. as long as the target is within 270m and visible it is an auto hit, just hold trigger.

I use SSRM bcs its the only way to cram a big std engine in my Cent and still having some room for a gun (AC2) and 2 ML.
The skilless SSRM hit for around 70% while the skillful ML hit for around 88% and the AC2 is uncomparable bcs i use it as supression fire weapon too and spam shots at enemys.

SSRM are not OP.

Edited by Thorqemada, 26 May 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[El Bandito]

People are freaking out now cause of the later SSRM4 and SSRM6--when they have no idea how long that will take.

People are dumb.

[Brawnfet]

Livewyr, on 26 May 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

What I *do* want is them to adjust the type of splash. (Right now it seems to do full damage at the point of contact, then splash damage in rings around it- I'd rather it did flat rate missile damage over the entire area. EX. .9 dmg missile hits RT, CT, and LT (but it actually connects with the CT: it should do either:
RT: 0.3 CT: 0.3 LT: 0.3 or RT: 0.2 CT 0.5 LT 0.2

That way it isn't doing extra damage, but it's still taking advantage of a unique splash mechanic in order to weaken overall armor or do crithunting on exposed internals.

I'm hesitant to suggest a new mechanic when the main idea is already covered with an existing one, and PGI doesn't do frequent patching.

Let us take a look at your idea anyway. A few results that I can conjecture:
1. Arms would take disproportionately high damage since they have one connecting location.
2. Missile overall damage drops. This would likely be increased to compensate for the new mechanic, if it were implemented.
3. Depending on how arms, legs, or head are included, the damage spread will change. A RT hit could damage 4 sections: RT, CT, RA, RL.
4. It could potentially shunt less damage to the center torso based on how 3 is resolved.
5. It lacks the small mech issue of the existing mechanic. This mechanic seems independent of mech size
6. It introduces, at the very least, 3 extra operations to each missile hit over no splash at all, and could potentially contribute to server latency when lots of missiles are fired. However, it may actually be faster than existing splash resolution anyway, and likely requires less operations.
7. Missiles hitting the landscape would no longer damage mechs.

All told, if I'm understanding you properly, that isn't really splash as it is understood in most games like Quake, COD, or whatever. You aren't damaging other mechs than the hit one, and missed shots simply don't do anything. It's more like other weapons but it divides damage based on section it hits.

[Livewyr]

my phone won't let me quote, so just know I'm talking to you, brawnfet. lol
1: they would take the full damage of the missile, true. (at least on pure side shots)
2: also true. (is currently set to .9 because after splash damage, it ends up doing more with the current system, especially against light mechs since they have more components to receive the damage ring. (more recognized contact surface) changing to a flat rate would require a tweaking of damage to bring it where it is now, but for consistency of viable damage rather than protection from annihilation.

4: correct, and the missile damage would be spread accordingly. (less same to individual components, but also weakening all of them and crit hunting in exposed sections.
5: correct, that is what I'm going for. I don't expect an explosion to deal more, or less damage based on the size of the target. (one could argue physics of surface area, but for gameplay purposes and complications I'd just leave it at maxed damage.)
6: possible either way. only a test would tell.
7: I think they still could, if the mech is in splash range of the missile hitting the terrain, it would damage the component(s) in range.


option two of my system allows for distance mitigation of damage.

the overall goal is to put a cap on the damage to the missile hit, to the missiles damage. How it is distributed can be argued and isn't really the issue for me.

I just don't like the idea of removing splash because then it becomes an LBX, and Artemis would become a necessity not to be a comparative waste.

[General Taskeen]

vid of ssrms from mw:ll

Better hits when firing straight at a target, at a good angle. The missiles can track and turn, but they will not turn past a certain angle. Several times the player misses when firing to close to a target that is also moving laterally, with the missile turning, but going to wide and missing.

https://www.youtube....wV5Y4-c#t=2116s

This is how they were in MW:3 as well, but missiles were slower in that game. Missiles are much faster in MW:LL.

Missile min-angles will be a good thing for this game. Other games already did it fine and balanced it accordingly.

Edited by General Taskeen, 26 May 2013 - 08:18 AM.

[Brawnfet]

Livewyr, on 26 May 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

my phone won't let me quote, so just know I'm talking to you, brawnfet. lol

That's fine.

Quote

4: correct, and the missile damage would be spread accordingly. (less same to individual components, but also weakening all of them and crit hunting in exposed sections.

Crits don't really do anything, and small bits of damage to components won't take them out either.

Quote

7: I think they still could, if the mech is in splash range of the missile hitting the terrain, it would damage the component(s) in range.

I kind of missed your option 2 as it were. I'm kind of in an all or nothing mind set. That said, there would be outright more operations than the current state. As I mentioned before, that might not be any real issue.

Quote

I just don't like the idea of removing splash because then it becomes an LBX

Homing would keep them distinct enough from Streaks. I'd be more worried about regular srms versus LBX though. The crit slot requirements, projectile speeds, and shear tonnage required for an LBX make me doubt that though.

Quote

Artemis would become a necessity not to be a comparative waste.

Based on this, I guess you're discussing either all SRMs or all missiles in general since ssrms can't use artemis?

[ICEFANG13]

With Artemis affecting SSRMs, they have no drawback and only weigh half a ton more, for a true 270 range, insane tracking, and always hitting CT. You may say that SSRM-2 is balanced, but who brings a SRM-2? Anyone?

[SpiralRazor]

Karr285, on 25 May 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

can we remove the Spash on those skilless noob hovering weapons? Considering they have the exact same issue LRMs had with Corring the CT always cuz of the splash. Can you do the same and remove the spash on SSRM's Thnx.

Im saying that your skilless, and a noob to boot.