188 replies to this topic

[Catamount]

OP, if you're just OCing the CPU, a CX430 should be enough. They pretty decent PSUs, and frequently available for $30 after MiR (which someone on a budget as tight as yours would do well to follow through on; MiRs are often-skipped hassles, but you need that money).

An FX-4100 has a TDP of 95W, a 560TI 170W, which means you'll draw maybe 300W in an artificial stress test. If you doubled the TDP of the FX4100, which would be a huge OC, you'd draw maybe 400W in an artificial stress test. Gaming would be more like 250/350. So even as the PSU aged, you'd be okay on a CX430 with a modest OC , which is all you'd be looking at without some expensive beefy mcbeefy cooler anyways. In short, I'd be surprised if your system, when all is said and done, is drawing more than 300W in gaming, and a little over in a prime95/Furmark test.

Is it a good system? Clearly there are differing opinions there on what qualifies as a "good" gaming system, but if you can land an FX-4100 even without OCing, a 560ti, and 4GB of any DDR3 under the sun, you'll have a *capable* gaming system for two or three years (my best guess). You'll have to play some games with reduced settings, but you'll be able to play, and smoothly. MWO is a worst case scenario, and it might drop into the high 20s or low 30s (probably on a med/high mix for settings) in the worst situations because of the CPU, higher if you OC. If that's really as good as it's going to get with your budget, and believe me, I understand budgets, then by all means, go for it. It's better than what a lot of people have to game on, and that's very, very playable.

Edited by Catamount, 29 May 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Lord Letto]

well I WAS Looking at the GTX 650 Ti (Possibly get one from Kijiji for $105 or new for $135+ Tax = $152.54), but you mentioned the 560 Ti and there was 3 put up on kijiji in the last 3 Days for $125-150( MSI=$125, Gigabyte=$135 and EVGA = $150) and the normal 560 would be $125 (2 Different Gigabyte Cards)-130 (1 ASUS) New ($141.24-146.89 after taxes)

As for Ocing the FX-4100, I think the 4GHz at 1,24V instead of 3.6GHz at 1.35V is what I would go for, only 1 Nvidia card for now so no SLI will be used.

[Catamount]

A 650ti would be an absolutely fine choice, especially if they're available for those prices. That would be even lighter on power while probably giving around the same performance (maybe even a hair better).

[Lord Letto]

Hmmm, according to this: http://www.geforce.c...470/performance
for the Relative GPU Performance using 3DMark Vantage (Performance Preset), the Normal GTX 560 is a Hair better than the 650 and 650 Ti (560 a hair over 20000, the 650 a hair under 15000 and the 650 Ti is at 20000 while the 560 Ti is in between 20000 and 25000), I was looking at the 470 (the 2 I mentioned earlier for $120 had their price dropped to $99) and it's just a Hair below the 650 Ti.

Edited by Lord Letto, 29 May 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Smokeyjedi]

Lord Letto, on 29 May 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Hmmm, according to this: http://www.geforce.c...470/performance
for the Relative GPU Performance using 3DMark Vantage (Performance Preset), the Normal GTX 560 is a Hair better than the 650 and 650 Ti (560 a hair over 20000, the 650 a hair under 15000 and the 650 Ti is at 20000 while the 560 Ti is in between 20000 and 25000), I was looking at the 470 (the 2 I mentioned earlier for $120 had their price dropped to $99) and it's just a Hair below the 650 Ti.

Indeed their performance is close, but the 4** GTX series will consume more power than the 5** GTX which will consume more power than the 6** GTX series cards..... I would trade my OCd ASUS DCU2 1gb 460 for a 650+ of anyknd at this point. and probably save tonnes of heat and power consumption, maybe even get a bit better FPS @ 1080P without a dirty watt-hungry OC GPU. After all I am running a 8350 Ocd to 4.5ghz(250-300W easy) on liquid and 28% OC on Asus DCU2 460 1gb to 850mhz core ( 350+watts no sweat)saving 100+watts would reduce the heat so much.............not to mention fan noise.......

Edited by Smokeyjedi, 29 May 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Catamount]

Lord Letto, on 29 May 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Hmmm, according to this: http://www.geforce.c...470/performance
for the Relative GPU Performance using 3DMark Vantage (Performance Preset), the Normal GTX 560 is a Hair better than the 650 and 650 Ti (560 a hair over 20000, the 650 a hair under 15000 and the 650 Ti is at 20000 while the 560 Ti is in between 20000 and 25000), I was looking at the 470 (the 2 I mentioned earlier for $120 had their price dropped to $99) and it's just a Hair below the 650 Ti.

Be careful of 3DMark scores pulled from Futuremark. 3Dmark is a fantastic benchmark for comparison, and all of them since about 05 have been comprehensive enough to give relative performance fairly solidly in-line with average game performance (which is rare for an artificial benchmark), but only under controlled conditions.

People post downright absurd scores to Futuremark, either because they're cheating and the software isn't' catching it, or they're doing crazy LN2 nonsense with their GPU, whatever.


You are, however, correct about the cards. I couldn't find an apples-to-apples comparison, but the 560Ti is about 20% faster than the 650Ti at 1080P:

http://www.techpower...ormance/23.html

I was only looking at the on-paper capability because I couldn't find a direct comparison at first and the 650TI really isn't as fast as it was looking. I guess the 560TI is the way to go after all (or a 470, but those consume a lot of power), at least if the prices are reasonable. Canada's always a little strange with consumer product pricing.

[Lord Letto]

I don't think I posted them here, but here are the 3 560 Ti Cards and 2 470 Cards (The 2 470 Cards went back up to $120 after)
3 560 Ti:
MSI Nvidia GTX 560 Ti (Twin Frozer II) for $125: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ488364381
Gigabyte GV-N560OC-1GI GeForce GTX 560 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 256-bit (Factory OC Model) for $135: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ489376240
EVGA Nvidia GTX 560 Ti 2GB Graphics Card for $150: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ488798836

2 470 (Same Owner):
ASUS 470 GTX 384bit 1280MB GDDR5 Video Card for $120: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ489576588
Zotac 470 GTX 384bit 1280MB GDDR5 Video Card for $120: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ489576494

Edited by Lord Letto, 30 May 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Smokeyjedi]

Lord Letto, on 30 May 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

I don't think I posted them here, but here are the 3 560 Ti Cards and 2 470 Cards (The 2 470 Cards went back up to $120 after)
3 560 Ti:
MSI Nvidia GTX 560 Ti (Twin Frozer II) for $125: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ488364381
Gigabyte GV-N560OC-1GI GeForce GTX 560 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 256-bit (Factory OC Model) for $135: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ489376240
EVGA Nvidia GTX 560 Ti 2GB Graphics Card for $150: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ488798836

2 470 (Same Owner):
ASUS 470 GTX 384bit 1280MB GDDR5 Video Card for $120: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ489576588
Zotac 470 GTX 384bit 1280MB GDDR5 Video Card for $120: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ489576494

Those twin frozer coolers have been know to perform very well......but only has 1gb of VRAM, that's 560 2GB would be a monster...........for the extra 25$ that's the difference between playing games we have now and next years games without a new GPU....more future proof @ 1080P im betting.

[Catamount]

I agree with Smokey, spend the $25 and get the 2GB

[Lord Letto]

another local member on here contacted me with some Parts (No Price Yet), Parts are a ASUS Crosshair 3 Mobo with a AMD phenom x4, Chipset only running 3 cores, Mobo may Support a 6 Core Chipset with a BIOS Update, Might have a 500GB HDD, a PSU but he forgets how big, 600W Maybe as he upgraded to a 1000W Model, Chipset Cooler and 8GB of ram and some Misc. Parts, he'll take a look when he gets home, he also told me about Canada Computers in Waterloo although I already know about them and made a thread about the build on their forums.
Edit: he just sent me another message saying I could get a Decent Case from Canada Computers for $60, i'll want something with a couple Big Fans in it.
Edit 2: just sent me Links to 2 Cases at Canada Computers that's priced right he said:
Cooler Master HAF 912 Mid Tower ATX Case http://www.canadacom...&item_id=033559
Thermaltake V3 Black AMD Edition Mid Tower Case http://www.canadacom...&item_id=048658

Edited by Lord Letto, 30 May 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[reiGngehoWn]

Lord Letto, on 30 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

another local member on here contacted me with some Parts (No Price Yet), Parts are a ASUS Crosshair 3 Mobo with a AMD phenom x4, Chipset only running 3 cores, Mobo may Support a 6 Core Chipset with a BIOS Update, Might have a 500GB HDD, a PSU but he forgets how big, 600W Maybe as he upgraded to a 1000W Model, Chipset Cooler and 8GB of ram and some Misc. Parts, he'll take a look when he gets home, he also told me about Canada Computers in Waterloo although I already know about them and made a thread about the build on their forums.
Edit: he just sent me another message saying I could get a Decent Case from Canada Computers for $60, i'll want something with a couple Big Fans in it.
Edit 2: just sent me Links to 2 Cases at Canada Computers that's priced right he said:
http://www.canadacom...&item_id=033559
http://www.canadacom...&item_id=048658

Hm, no!

http://www.asus.com/...IR_III_FORMULA/

No AM3+ support.

edit: I wouldn't take it in the end it is your choice of course!

Edited by reiGngehoWn, 30 May 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[Lord Letto]

I Replied back and said i'm not interested in the Mobo cause there's no AM3+ Support, I may be interested in the 500GB HDD, PSU and possibly the 8GB Ram and maybe some of the Misc. Stuff depending on what it is, and told him that I already knew about Canada Computers, that I registered and made a thread on their forums about My build, and asked what he's asking for the stuff. he replied that he'll send me a list of everything he has and I can make a offer as it's just sitting around collecting dust, he just wants it to go to someone who can use it, he'll send me a Email sometime after 7:30 PM (about 3 and a half hours or so from now).
Edit: Sent me info on 2 things so far, the PSU is a OCZ 700W PSU, and he got a Cooler Master Hyper 212 Cooler, but it's not listed as AM3+ Compatible on the Box. he'll get me some more info in a bit, having trouble getting the Kids to Bed.
Edit 2: the 500GB HDD is a Seagate and the Ram is a 8GB Set of Kingston HyperX DDR3 1600
Edit 3: was just looking on kijiji at the Cases, here's 3 of them:
Antec Sonata 3 case and 500 watt power supply for $40 (retails for ~$130): http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ480201153
NZXT gaming tower for $40 O.B.O: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ381601233
Used Antec P180 full size tower Computer Case for $30: http://kitchener.kij...QAdIdZ469256427

Edited by Lord Letto, 30 May 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[Smokeyjedi]

so if u landed fx4100+CM 212 hyper+, OCZ 700W PSU,8gb 1600ddr3,gtx560 2gb, pretty much any decent brand name MOBO on sale am3+ usb 3.0etc, that would be for sure capable of playing a few games way more after you CPU OC to above 4ghz.........hopefully you have a 1080P TV you can use instead of sinking more money into a monitor and you may just hit this budget build target.

[Lord Letto]

for the OC, one person on the Canada Computers Forum said that I may or may not be able to do the overclock, that not all CPUs are different and just because he can do it doesn't mean I can, that he can't go past 4.4GHz on his I7 or it won't be stable, no matter the voltages he applys, but he knows some people who get 5GHz with thiers with only slightly higher Voltage, that every processor is built different and are able to handle different clocks, that overclocking is a Gamble and there's no guarantee that it will be stable outside of tested specs.
for monitor, I just have a old HP CRT/Tube Monitor with wired Emachines Keyboard and a new Acer Wired Mouse (I also have a Wireless mouse, but the right click is broken on it), my mom got a 40-42" HDTV I could hook it up to though

so anyway, $60 for FX-4100+Cooler master 212+ CPU Cooler + 2x2GB G.Skill Riptide X 1333MHz CL7 Ram (Likely sell ram to get some money back to go towards the build), $150 for the GTX 560 Ti, Max of $40 for Case plus whatever I would have to pay for PSU and 8GB 1600 DDR3 RAM (and possible Seagate 500GB HDD), Minimum of $85+Tax (~ $96.04) for a AM3+ Mobo with SATA 3 (6GB/s), Minimum of $60+Tax (~$67.79) if I go with SATA 2 (3GB/s). so that would be a maximum of $346.04 Plus cost of PSU, 8GB 1600 DDR3 RAM and possible HDD and Minus what I could sell the 2x2GB of G. Skill 1333MHz CL7 RAM for.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

He's right every chip is different, and don't behave the same, but he's then talking out of his arse, 95% of CPU's will attain an over clock at the same average level as the general consumer base can get.
So I wouldn't worry about what he says, you'll get to 4ghz or just above you'll just be playing with voltage till its stable, like anyone over clocking does

Your choice of PSU will influence this.

Edited by DV McKenna, 30 May 2013 - 10:17 PM.

[MavRCK]

Letto, right now the i5/i7 fabrication process is so mature now that almost every new batch of i5/i7 can overclock and hit the high frequencies easily and reliably... an i5 at 5 ghz is no joke!

Edited by MavRCK, 30 May 2013 - 11:49 PM.

[reiGngehoWn]

MavRCK, on 30 May 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

.. an i5 at 5 ghz is no joke!

Cooled by air you will reach core temps of 90°C ! So to be sure everything will be fine next 1-2 years, you'll need a liquid cooling system ... which is (more) expensive(compared to air)

Also we are not about what can be OCed the most, but what will give the best performance/$. Considering that the $'s are limited, performance is, too. Now he needs to find the best solution


If you OC 20% you won't get 20% more performance ... just saying

[Qbecks]

Hi Letto, just wanted to add my 2ct here:

1) Like someone already said, PSU is most important part of your computer. Wattage means nothing, you need enough amperes on 12V line. Detachable cables are just gimmicks, skip it and you will have 3 troubles less: it's cheaper with 'solid' cables, it has smaller chance of failure and it loses less power on connection point (just a bit, but anyway). Try to talk to your parents about some extra $ for PSU because better PSU is cheaper to run.

2) Don't spend money on 2,5' frame, try to make it yourself, just google a bit if you have no clue how.

3) Don't buy used hard disk: it mechanical part (like fans) so it's prone to failure with time. Use your 2,5' HDD and wait till you will have some cash to buy faster one. Just check if you will be able to connect your HDD to motherboard (ATA vs. SATA)

4) Consider using CPU with built-in GPU. It can saves you a lot money and, like HDD, it will be easy to upgrade. Here link to some benchmarks http://www.guru3d.co...iew_apu,10.html

5) Don't get caught on marketing BS: if they tell you that one price will only be valid till end of month, then it means probably that next month you can get it cheaper.

6) If you buy a good PSU, you can take any case you will get for free from friends or from some small business in your neighborhood, most of them will have old computers laying around, maybe you can have one to 'slaughter' it.


Regards.

[Shamous13]

Lord Letto, on 30 May 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Minimum of $85+Tax (~ $96.04) for a AM3+ Mobo with SATA 3 (6GB/s), Minimum of $60+Tax (~$67.79) if I go with SATA 2 (3GB/s)

for the extra $30 go with the sata 3 MOB, I would look at this one.
http://www.canadacom...&item_id=051994

or for an extra $10 go to this MOB
http://www.canadacom...&item_id=051996

[Catamount]

Qbecks, on 31 May 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Like someone already said, PSU is most important part of your computer. Wattage means nothing, you need enough amperes on 12V line.

PSUs are important, but it's not the energy coming off it that distinguishes two units. Wattage and amps coming off a given rail are exactly the same thing (watts=volts*amps), unless you're buying a really bad PSU and the company selling it is simply lying about the wattage.

Any passable PSU can deliver its stated wattage, but what makes a good unit is low ripple and tight voltage regulation. Efficiency isn't a bad thing to have either, and generally goes hand in hand with other good attributes.

In the case of the OP, something lower power (400-500W) will do just fine as long as the unit functions well.

Edited by Catamount, 31 May 2013 - 05:38 AM.