50 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

aniviron, on 29 May 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

...the weapon range overlaps are really awkward and it's super slow and doesn't have all that much firepower and runs hot.

But other than that, it's a fantastic first experience for newcomers!

[impar]

I usually pilot my Atlas founder and have been shot down by 6-PPC Stalkers so many times that it isnt fun. Two 6xPPC shots straight to the center torso and I am dead. Or three shots from 4-PPCs or GR+PPC...

Atlas are way too fragile and slow to be assaults mechs, yep, you read it right, Atlas are too fragile and slow to be assaults mechs. They are enemy fire magnets with a huge target profile and dont have enough speed to disengage a battle.

The only Atlas that is somewhat worthy is the D-DC because of it stealthiness.
Highlanders have the advantage of mobility and Stalkers have a much better hitbox profile and are more durable. Awesomes are really the only other "assault" mech that are worse than the Atlas.

Since I dont want to be yet another GR+PPC player, I chose to see the Atlas D as not an assault platform but a siege platform, full of indirect fire weapons (LRMs) and some defensive capabilities (PPCs+MLs or AC20+MLs).
Is this the role Atlas should play? No.
Is this the role Atlas is relegated to? Yes.
Armour, the main advantage of the Atlas, is in a far third position behind both mobility and firepower.
When the developers changed the timings of weapon fire and only doubled the armour they made a mistake.

The OP is against assault mechs not performing the assault role of leading an attack, any smart assault mech is not leading an attack and expose itself to the 2-4 snipers enemy mechs! Cowering? No. Self-preservation.

Now, have you seen the new Hero mech? Another GR+PPC sniper platform? This game is getting even more unbalanced towards sniper play. Three shots and you are dead. To counter this you either hide or move fast.

[DarkDevilDancer]

Assault lrm boats make me a sad panda, all that armour cowering in the back afraid to get stuck.

Some people just lack that killer instinct needed to make a real warrior.

[Wildstreak]

Rabid Dutchman, on 28 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Or on Tourmaline Desert seeing an Atlas and an Awesome hunkered down in a knell between two rock outcroppings, while Hunchbacks and Centurions and Cataphracts (me) get blasted trying to fight while out matched by 100+ tons.

I can understand about the Atlas but regarding the Awesome....

aniviron, on 29 May 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Can't speak for the other assault pilots, but when I am taking my awesome out for a stroll I hang back because it takes two shots to core me to deep red, and my ct is wider than your whole mech, and I'm not moving very fast. So yeah, cover is prudent.

This and....

impar, on 29 May 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Awesomes are really the only other "assault" mech that are worse than the Atlas.

This also.

When I see Cataphracts and Jagermechs stride unfearfully towards Assaults including for 1-on-1 fights, I know the problem does not lie in the Assault pilots.

The Orion comes out next month and should further devalue the Atlas.

[Moku]

I love the assault pilots with a bunch of stacked ppc's, gauss, or lasers and sit in cover and do absolutely nothing since they can't even move into position to get a good shot. Just peak out and shoot.. miss.. shoot.. miss.. shoot.. miss.. .. miss miss. then go hide. For crying out loud, if you can't friggen hit half your long range shots don't do that. Then when everyone is half dead they come in and do clean up kills or else get swarmed and do a solo death dance.

[Trufast]

Assaults are good meatshields in brawling range. Long range the only reason why you should need a meatshield is because you got caught in the open. And at least in the current metagame, speed and jumpjets is a better damage midigator than armor.

[Psychokreep]

I ground out game after game to earn the D-DC. An Alas was my cherry-on-top. I've always been and always will be partial to Assault piloting even though I run my Highlander and Jager more now. The Atlas will always be the main concentration of enemy fire because of the threat they pose on multiple platforms. As others have stated, the game has now focused on sniping with hard hitting weapons that shred armor quickly. If caught in the open, well, depends on the pilot on how fast he/she can find cover again. With the bigger maps that have almost zero cover (Alpine mainly), the Atlas becomes the cover for some and that is fine, we are built big, but will get cut down quickly. Bring back the 'brawler' capabilities in-game and I'll run my Atlas exclusively. As it stands now, long range battles are center stage. "Hide behind cover...." and take pot shots, yes. Cowardly, no. Just how the metagame is currently being played.

[Mhyth]

Trufast, on 29 May 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Assaults are good meatshields in brawling range. Long range the only reason why you should need a meatshield is because you got caught in the open. And at least in the current metagame, speed and jumpjets is a better damage midigator than armor.

Spot on. Anyone using an Assault to soak up damage strolling through open ground or foolishing standing on top of a hill or worse charging down it is reducing their teams chance of winning and just wasting armor.

I played 35-ish matches in a light, heavies and assaults completing the current event and only saw maybe 3 or 4 matches where all the assault mechs just puddled together until the other side came to slaughter them - seemed to occur exclusively on the new canyon map.

Far more matches get decided early by some young Napoleon in an assault leading most of the team straight into the enemy kill zone with little cover or over zealous and impatient heavy mech players egging on the team to 'charge!' before the assaults even arrive or just as the assaults arrive because they ran way ahead and are bored waiting. Newbie lights seem to run off at warp speed intending to 'spot' only getting themselves killed before most of the team even gets in LRM range.

More often than not the trending I've seen is pug teams that turtle up cover their flanks and let the enemy faceplant into sniper and LRM fire win the match.

[Rabid Dutchman]

Xie Belvoule, on 29 May 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

Umm, where have you been for the past month, under a rock? Everyone and their cat is a high alpha sniper build now.
When the only difference between a heavy and an assault is whether it takes 3 or 4 shots to kill you, your damn right people are keeping their heads down and staying in cover.

Appogee, on 29 May 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

I have just purchased my first Atlas.

With so many LRM campers, and scouts spotting for them, I am playing the Assault like I play my heavy... find cover, id an available target, step out and shoot, and advance with the rest of the team.

I learned quickly that wading into a hail of missiles and sniper fire kills my Atlas in 15 seconds.

So, I am not sure whether I am ''part of the problem'' as you see it. But I don't see an alternative strategy given the current meta, and given that - even though I use a 350 engine in my Atlas - it is still a big, slow, easy target for camperpults and snipers alike.

What would you have me do differently?

Rabid Dutchman, on 28 May 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

...
Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I am not saying that Assault Mechs should never take cover. Assault Mechs should take cover, all Mechs should because it is a smart tactic. What they should not do is cower behind cover, only to step out occasionally to observe the battle without firing a shot.
...
Again: Not complaining about Assault Mechs that utilize cover, just the ones that won't do anything but stay in cover.

Three times. Wow.

Appogee, you are not part of the problem. You are playing your weight class smart. That's exactly what you should be doing.

Xie Belvoule, I'm perfectly aware of the current sniper mentality that has overtaken MW:O. If you would bother to read my post you would know that I was not referring to Assault pilots that playsmart (Like Appogee here), but rather I was referring to the Assault pilots that don't play at all.

There is a difference between utilizing cover and hiding in cover. The former is prudent and necessary, the latter is a waste of an Assault Mech and a drain on the team.

[RacerX]

I can only speak for myself. An Atlas is not a walking wall of armor that can absorb the concentrated fire of an eight man enemy unit. So many people, frustratingly so, think it is. When I see an Atlas wither within seconds of cresting a hill I tell myself not to go over there. But then I see some ***** prompt the other assaults to do the same thing the Atlas pilot did.

An Atlas, or any other assault mech, may be a blunt instrument however blunt instruments used with purpose can be devistating. Wadding into enemy fire, alone, without support is not my idea of good tactics. Getting picked up on radar for incoming LRM hell is also poor tactics.

[Rabid Dutchman]

RacerX, on 29 May 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I can only speak for myself. An Atlas is not a walking wall of armor that can absorb the concentrated fire of an eight man enemy unit. So many people, frustratingly so, think it is. When I see an Atlas wither within seconds of cresting a hill I tell myself not to go over there. But then I see some ***** prompt the other assaults to do the same thing the Atlas pilot did.

An Atlas, or any other assault mech, may be a blunt instrument however blunt instruments used with purpose can be devistating. Wadding into enemy fire, alone, without support is not my idea of good tactics. Getting picked up on radar for incoming LRM hell is also poor tactics.

Rabid Dutchman, on 28 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I understand that piloting an Atlas is not the same as flipping the God Mode switch, but simpering behind a rock is a waste of 100 tons.

Four times now I've clarified my point by quoting something I said earlier.
Are we going for a record or something? I'm all for that, just clue me in guys.

[Praehotec8]

Rabid Dutchman, on 29 May 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Four times now I've clarified my point by quoting something I said earlier.
Are we going for a record or something? I'm all for that, just clue me in guys.

No one's picking on you, just it's hard to tell where you feel prudence gives way to cowardice. For example, I run my assaults weighted on the brawling side, and often have few long-range weapons (plus, I feel I am not as strong with long-range direct fire). With a mech that at best goes 60kph, I can't roll out and advance along open avenues if there are enemies sniping. Usually I hang back until there are enemies within a reasonable engagement range, at which point I will push (and can often lead a strong push to victory). However, for the first several minutes, it certainly looks like I am doing nothing. Sometimes during that interval smaller mechs run out and get killed. I've just learned it's foolish to rush out blindly even if others do so (unless the opportunity is right).

[Rabid Dutchman]

Praehotec8, on 30 May 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

No one's picking on you, just it's hard to tell where you feel prudence gives way to cowardice. For example, I run my assaults weighted on the brawling side, and often have few long-range weapons (plus, I feel I am not as strong with long-range direct fire). With a mech that at best goes 60kph, I can't roll out and advance along open avenues if there are enemies sniping. Usually I hang back until there are enemies within a reasonable engagement range, at which point I will push (and can often lead a strong push to victory). However, for the first several minutes, it certainly looks like I am doing nothing. Sometimes during that interval smaller mechs run out and get killed. I've just learned it's foolish to rush out blindly even if others do so (unless the opportunity is right).

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that Assault Mechs shouldn't wade through the open to absorb LRM/Gauss/PPC fire. I understand that (especially with the way a lot of people play MW:O) returning fire from cover is necessary to survival. However, when the rest of the team is advancing through cover, they need the support that the assault Mechs are supposed to provide. And sometimes you do just have to step out and take a hit to be able to seize the initiative, it happens. I play a heavy and I'll occasionally maneuver myself to provide heavily damaged teammates with physical cover, or just to add to their AMS umbrella.

If a team is just sprinting straight in and leaving the Assault's in their wake then they can't expect support, but if a team is moving as a unit at a moderate pace then there's no reason why Assault Mech's shouldn't keep with them. Nobody wants to get shot, but sticking behind cover and not doing anything isn't a viable option.

[Tarl Cabot]

(chuckles) And people wonder why others like JJ on their mechs....

As for cover, I have seen a few matches where one side or the other change things up some, especially on the big maps, and go different routes and different locations to defend.

All the maps should be setup with 2 to 3 pairs of launch points instead of the current one. True, it would not work with a few of the maps but all newer maps should be done with that in mind.

[Woozle]

I feel your pain, RD. I die a little inside every time I wind up spectating someone in an Atlas who is the last person alive on the team and all I see is the backside of a hill or building. Then (very soon after) when the end-game screen comes up, I see that the person riding 100 tons of death & destruction did a whopping total of 73 points of damage.

Just like RD, I'm not advocating a recreation of the Charge of the Light Brigade; I'm just asking you to SHOOT something, for Pete's sake.

[Dremnon]

Rabid Dutchman, on 30 May 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

However, when the rest of the team is advancing through cover, they need the support that the assault Mechs are supposed to provide

This is kind of the key, you're making the assumption that the rest of the team is going to advance, I hardly see that happening anymore.

I had two assaults that I used for close range brawling, I say had because I find that those builds are no longer viable because of what the current trend is now. I now use my D-DC and 3F with medium to long range builds and stay in cover because 80% of the games I'm playing that's where the bulk of my team is. When my team pushes, I push with them and do what an assault should do, which is be the big bruiser that takes the bulk of the damage from the enemy, but because the bulk of loadouts I'm seeing in game now consist of mediums (to a certain extent), heavies, and assaults all using long range (500 m +) loadouts, I hardly see anyone willing to move forward and engage close range, but rather play a sniper game.

I agree that there is a rising trend for assaults to hang back behind cover and not engage, but it's more because people are not going with brawler or close range builds that allow for close range fights, and people are content to sit back and lob damage behind cover. Because of that, assault pilots are doing the same, otherwise they get mowed down in short order when they try to engage in the open.

[Rabid Dutchman]

Exactly, Dremnon. What drives me crazy is that a lot of people don't realize that one of the best ways to bring down the PPC boats is to get right in their face and team up on them. Yes you'll take a good deal of damage, but they'll take way more if you're using a decent brawling setup. The problem is that the thought process lately seems to be "Well, I can't run straight at these guys. Therefore, I am helpless".

Another part of the problem could be pilots not planning out where they're going to go, and then getting stuck somewhere where they can't pull back without being shot. That's not just Assault pilots, either. I'm pretty sure we've all been guilty of it at some point (I know it's happened to me a few times). But just staying right where you are and not doing anything rather than stepping out to re-position and taking a few hits is just ridiculous.

9 times out of 10 the team that dictates the flow of battle wins the game. By stopping in cover and trying to engage pop-tarts on their own terms you're giving them control of the battle. I know this is damn near impossible to do in PUGs, but try something new. Flank wide cliff-side on Frozen City to get around the crash site killzone, push along the low side of Alpine, go wide either way on Tourmaline, etc.

Edited by Rabid Dutchman, 30 May 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[Zakie Chan]

LOL this thread again...

12 ppcs to core an atlas. That's 2 alphas. Those players are the smart ones. Unlike the goons I see stand still in the open trying to out snipe another mech, only to it and the rest of the enemy team rain lrms and pop tart. Usually 20 seconds is how long it lasts

[Edson Drake]

It's a variety of factors, the ones I noticed:

First the PPC sniping going on is scaring everyone. Missiles should get a decent buff to counter that. Even somewhat decent players will take cover because of that.

Second, new players. Many newbies are getting mixed up with higher ELO players. Some won't even fight: for some reason they are too scared to shoot and will take cover, even in assaults, thus, ending the match with 0 damage.

My friends think this game is too slow for their tastes. Basically a mix of the speed of lights and the firepower of assaults is what they want. I told them there isn't a Nomad at this game, this is supposed to be an articial realistic simulation game.
So when a newbie at the MW franchise chooses an assault, that's what happens.

[Rabid Dutchman]

Zakie Chan, on 30 May 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

LOL this thread again...

12 ppcs to core an atlas. That's 2 alphas. Those players are the smart ones. Unlike the goons I see stand still in the open trying to out snipe another mech, only to it and the rest of the enemy team rain lrms and pop tart. Usually 20 seconds is how long it lasts

Rabid Dutchman, on 28 May 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

...
Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I am not saying that Assault Mechs should never take cover. Assault Mechs should take cover, all Mechs should because it is a smart tactic. What they should not do is cower behind cover, only to step out occasionally to observe the battle without firing a shot.
...
Again: Not complaining about Assault Mechs that utilize cover, just the ones that won't do anything but stay in cover.

Number 5! That record is ours guys! GG