45 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Livewyr, on 29 May 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Yeah, wonderful demonstration of gyro-stabilization.

Now lets take his harness and strap it to something that's actually shaking... heck you can even take him and make him jump up and down.

(Gyro-Stabilizers are great, and some are pretty quick, but not intense vibration quick.)

I'm cool if you want to hate on the idea, because the lore has thousands of years to come up with something better.

Riogar Daylighter, on 29 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Jumping is just a symptom of the initial problem. The real problem is pin point accuracy with a high damage output.

Back in my day, the way we dealt with PPCs was simply walking around them.

[Riogar Daylighter]

jakucha, on 29 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I don't think think heat should mess with HUD, just start to cause issues with internals when you alpha lots of strong weapons too often. Things like general damage to internals, damage to joint actuators (when that's added). Lore-wise alpha strikes were usually a last resort because it could be as dangerous to the shooter as it was to the guy taking all the hits. A lore aspect I would like for this game to borrow.

I was just thinking that heat messes with my old computer all the time. I have an old school diamond monster on a pentium 133 MMX when that thing heats up it makes playing Dark Forces 2 interesting he he he.

[NinetyProof]

QQing about pop-tarting needs to end.

[Riogar Daylighter]

NinetyProof, on 29 May 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

QQing about pop-tarting needs to end.

Amen brother. Instead of crying we should be finding ways to fix the problem.

[NinetyProof]

Riogar Daylighter, on 29 May 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Amen brother. Instead of crying we should be finding ways to fix the problem.

They are already working on it. Heat Penalty for multi-weapon firing, depending upon how it's implemented, could curtail it ... also they mentioned "hud shake" and I believe that is being worked on.

There is nothing that the "community" needs to figure out, or fix. PGI already knows what it wants to do, we just need to give them time to do it.

[mike29tw]

Riogar Daylighter, on 29 May 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Amen brother. Instead of crying we should be finding ways to fix the problem.

We've already found tons a ways to fix it and still no words from PGI.
All that's left to do is QQing and whining.

[Riogar Daylighter]

NinetyProof, on 29 May 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

They are already working on it. Heat Penalty for multi-weapon firing, depending upon how it's implemented, could curtail it ... also they mentioned "hud shake" and I believe that is being worked on.

There is nothing that the "community" needs to figure out, or fix. PGI already knows what it wants to do, we just need to give them time to do it.

Sorry I meant in a general sense not just particular instance. If I could only speak with my hands on the Internet.

[Kraven Kor]

Livewyr, on 29 May 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Even if the cam wasn't shakey.. the weapons would be...

*sigh*

No, no it wouldn't be. Not if engineered correctly.

Look at the miniguns on attack helicopters and gunships. Or naval anti-missile phalanx guns.

Or even modern tanks and armored vehicles often have some serious accuracy even when on the move.

[Petroshka]

Lolol @ people trying to introduce science and realism into a game that is not much more than an arcade shooter.

balance > realism

[RacerX]

Jump snipping is older than MW2. However, the new trend I've been seeing is the Halo Bunny Hopping mechs. I've seen highlanders jump, hover, shoot, land, jump immediatly upon landing and going all over again. I'm starting to wonder if JJ fuel is bugged on the highlander because folks seem to jump, hover, jump without any recharge time. The real ugly thing is jumping seems to also screw up the hit boxes. I've hit a mech in the chest and damaged thier leg. I've hit the leg of a jumping mech and damaged the head.

[Kraven Kor]

RacerX, on 29 May 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Jump snipping is older than MW2. However, the new trend I've been seeing is the Halo Bunny Hopping mechs. I've seen highlanders jump, hover, shoot, land, jump immediatly upon landing and going all over again. I'm starting to wonder if JJ fuel is bugged on the highlander because folks seem to jump, hover, jump without any recharge time. The real ugly thing is jumping seems to also screw up the hit boxes. I've hit a mech in the chest and damaged thier leg. I've hit the leg of a jumping mech and damaged the head.

The fewer jets you have, the faster they refill.

My cataphract with 4 JJ needs only be on the ground for maybe a full second and a half to refill.

[Kraven Kor]

Petroshka, on 29 May 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Lolol @ people trying to introduce science and realism into a game that is not much more than an arcade shooter.

balance > realism

I was merely responding to someone trying to use science / realism to say jump sniping should *not* be possible, when we have infinitely better versions of it in the real world (C-130, AC-10 Warthog, Apache, Phalanx, super-accurate fast attack craft, etc.)

And I don't like the over-abundance of them either, again, "OH GOD MW:4 ALL OVER AGAIN, KILL ME NOW!"

I don't want them removed or nerfed to oblivion; I do want them to be less common and harder to use somehow.

I support the reticule shake, even though I know that modern technology is better than BT tech by far in this regard.

[MasterErrant]

Ebonkosh, on 29 May 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

The game was good until this became widespread. To many matches now are just mechs jump jetting and shooting PPCs aor AC20 or Gaus shots. While it may have been in the table top game this is really a bad thing in this game. With the lag, netcode etc....to get a shot to hit can be a challenge. If they do not stop it at the very least they need to add some type of mch shaking to simulate the rockets firing. No way should someone be able to snipe doing that if they want the game to be successful. I am sure there will be haters out there that do this and feel they have skill but the real fun of the game is mixing it up and going at it. Not this jump crap. LRMs are almost useless for a few reasons but jumping in and out of target lock doesn't help. I do hope they balance this soon. It is bad enough the matches are hardly evenly matched with this ELO stat. maybe I am missing something but in PUGs this is making the game less fun. I am sure in a CLAN group you can have your own snipers but even that is not fun. This will turn into a WOT sniper fest that is crappy. I really thnk that lights should be the only ones jetting around if they will allow firing in midair.

How about adding some new types of matches as well? some multimech spawn maps or something.

Let the hate begin..


Ebon.

Don't have a prob with poptarting. in general... it's a boring and ineffecient way to play. i've seen games time out because both side were stupid enough to focus on this tactic. flank em and stake em.

And BTW I played TT for 10+ years solid both as ref and player. and there was no rule allowing poptarting. excep that a jump the began and ended in hexes with los could use the best los along the jump line. If pop tarting was a legal tactice it was added after fasa became an organ of corporate gaming and the game got *****.

Edited by MasterErrant, 29 May 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Kraven Kor, on 29 May 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

*sigh*

No, no it wouldn't be. Not if engineered correctly.

Look at the miniguns on attack helicopters and gunships. Or naval anti-missile phalanx guns.

Or even modern tanks and armored vehicles often have some serious accuracy even when on the move.

No, no they would be, even if engineered correctly.

The main gun on the AH-64 Apache is stabilized and tracks with the helmet or the TADS--but only up to a certain amount of movement be it lateral or vertical--exceed a certain amount of Gs and you're going to miss. Remember, the barrel and weapon have their own independent mass and inertia to deal with.

The M1 Abrams has limits to its stabilization systems as well. Exceed these limits and you'll miss.

Mechs will have limits, too. Not to mention they will have exceedingly limited ranges of motion when mounted into the torso given both space and armor requirements. There are lots of factors here you aren't even thinking about.

[MasterErrant]

lockwoodx, on 29 May 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

It's like this, in the air, and then PEWPEW.



Honestly adding shaky cam to jumping was one of the sillest things PGI could have done considering modern day tech is already there with gyroscope stabilizing mounts for targeting/cameras. There's nothing wrong with the jumping part. PGI's vision of "balance" sorrounding heavy long ranged weapons with few to little drawbacks is the crux of the issue imo.

I'd like to point out that that is a four pound camera on a custom built "20 pount" harness. and is extraordinarily fragile.

the M! abrams gyro stabilization system and mountings triples the mass and volume of the weapon
and does about a tenth of what a steady cam does. Bt is a little highr tech than currnt RW tech but not that much.

I would also like to point out that modern weapons jhave relatively massive Dedigated targeting system mounted to the gun itself. BT calls these targeting computers...and thety aren't deployed yet
which is the real reason The devs need to reel in precision.

Edited by MasterErrant, 29 May 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[InRev]

Applying realtech to Battletech is apples and oranges. This is a game in which:

MGs shoot 90 meters. Civilian hunting rifles shoot further.
Long Range missiles go 1000 meters. Modern MLRS have ranges in the miles.
Large caliber guns shoot 270m. World War II tanks could achieve kills at 3 miles.

Finally, within the rules of the IP (everyone's favourite TT) jumpjetting caused an accuracy decrease of +3 to a 2d6 roll.

Translation: BattleTech mechs had ****** stabalizers, especially when jumpjetting.

[Livewyr]

*cough* since we're talking about the "realism" of gyro stabilizing the pilot's chair/helmet, and his weapons-

I propose we introduce the high-angle of attack that most every guided missile can achieve *NOW* let alone 1000+ years from now.. and forsake this "cover" BS.

Also, Artemis needs to be boosted. If an AH-64 can use laser guidance either from the chopper, or from a ground asset (current TAG) and put a hellfire missile through a window.. Missiles should be 1-shotting cockpits left and right.

You won't have any right to QQ about missile apocalypse because it's part of the game and intentional. (And more than realistic.)

(When missiles are fixed, I'm going to quote the "QQ should stop" posts.. and fix them for the return barrage.

[Mavek]

BrokenNachtmahr, on 29 May 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I call them poptarts. Their skill exceeds that of the LRM boat only by the addition of the space bar.

Actually I find it easier to hit things at 1000+ meters in the middle of a jump, than actually getting missiles to land on a target and do damage.

I also find it very easy to hit anyone that just jumped themselves out of cover to take said shot.

Actually, using long range missiles is completely broke right now. Im not opposed to keeping it this way, nor am I opposed to adding jump jet shake to a jumping mech.

I just thought I'd point out that LRMs and SRMs are far more broke right now than jump jets.

If they keep nerfing everything, pretty soon they'll just hand us all panties, lipstick, and pillows, and tell us to have a sleep over. But then people would complain about players that jump on the bed while swinging the pillow, giving them an over powering damage capability that makes them want to cry, quit, and go home.

[Steel Claws]

Right now the jump snipers are the only thing that keeps stalkers in check. If jump sniping becomes difficult stalkers will walk all over every other mech in the game. Even now I see most of the high scores are people in stalkers. You can believe it or not - makes no difference to me - but you have been warned.

Further jump sniping is harder to do than standing on the ground and shooting. It is one of the hardest things to do successfully in this game. If you don't think so you're extremely dim because it's simple physics. It is only done because it makes you a harder target to hit. Cry all you want but that that's the sum of it. It is not anything new, it was done from day one of closed beta.

Edited by Steel Claws, 29 May 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Lykaon]

Ebonkosh, on 29 May 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

The game was good until this became widespread. To many matches now are just mechs jump jetting and shooting PPCs aor AC20 or Gaus shots. While it may have been in the table top game this is really a bad thing in this game. With the lag, netcode etc....to get a shot to hit can be a challenge. If they do not stop it at the very least they need to add some type of mch shaking to simulate the rockets firing. No way should someone be able to snipe doing that if they want the game to be successful. I am sure there will be haters out there that do this and feel they have skill but the real fun of the game is mixing it up and going at it. Not this jump crap. LRMs are almost useless for a few reasons but jumping in and out of target lock doesn't help. I do hope they balance this soon. It is bad enough the matches are hardly evenly matched with this ELO stat. maybe I am missing something but in PUGs this is making the game less fun. I am sure in a CLAN group you can have your own snipers but even that is not fun. This will turn into a WOT sniper fest that is crappy. I really thnk that lights should be the only ones jetting around if they will allow firing in midair.

How about adding some new types of matches as well? some multimech spawn maps or something.

Let the hate begin..


Ebon.

Jump sniping or "poptarting" was not in the table top game because movement and firing phases of the turn were distinctly separate.

This means that in order to shoot a target in the table top game you would need to be able to see it AFTER executing all movement.

But that is neither here nor there or relevant to your current concerns.

"poptarting" did however exist in previous mechwarrior games and was in those games considered by many to also be a problem.

So why was this "poptart" thing not anticipated by P.G.I.?

"Poptarting" is a symptom of the desire to maximize the effects of game mechanics.

The objective is to deal damage while taking little or none in return.

The means to accomplish this is to limit exposure to incoming fire while at the same time maximizing firepower.

Jumping from cover and firing a massive alpha strike and then returning to cover is the result of evolving tactics to maximize the game mechanics.


If jumpjets get nerfed then the technique will still be used but in another way.