64 replies to this topic

[Nebuchadnezzar2]

Thing isn't going to change as long as lrm and long range weapon competing for dominance. Lrm encourages cover that means encouraging sniping and sniping encourages cover and tha also means encouraging indirect fire. Balance the you'll have perfectly balanced long range engagement only meta.

I vote for brawling meta because it is the only meta that creates opportunities for any other play
In brawling meta snipers will be happy with many available targets, lrm mech will also have more targets, better hit probability, their damage per match will rise. In brawling meta backstabing lights will be happy with many unsuspecting victim, falnkers will be happy in how they can change the outcome of the battle, scout will be happy on how they can set the engagement.

No meta over that many opportunity as brawling meta

[Soy]

team Poptart/Raven WILL RISE AGAIN

[Valore]

@soy

You deserve a kick to the shins for that terrible joke.

A meta that ends up in brawls because there is no way to punish people for doing stupid things like striding across open areas with impunity is not a good meta. You should never reward stupid play by dumbing the game down.

[Novakaine]

Great Jebus man up.
As dumb as I think it is, it's a valid tactic.
Teamwork eliminates it quite well.
But then most you brawler don't even want us use that.
Pold up alpha strike.
Plod up alpha strike.
*sigh

[Voidcrafter]

Valore, on 29 May 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

1. Pointing out game breaking mechanics is not the same as qq. You can have one without the other.

2. The fix to high alpha dominance is improving incentives for taking balanced builds. Not trying to break a legitimate gameplay mechanic. Some mechs are all out brawlers. Others are hit and runners. Killing variety kills the game, as you said. Your solution however kills it from the other direction.

3. The counter is simple. Spend more time in game, less time on forums, and become better at whatever is beating you.

So you're sort of like me - you don't like the poptarding horde, but you feel satisfaction when you managed to outbrain some and kill them.
The difference is that even if I can put my hatred toward them aside, I still am mad that all this meta is pushing more and more people to "join the fun".
I. Will. Not.
And this is a problem you know why?
Cause I'm not a bad player myself, I certanly don't wanna play that way, but I'm feeling forced to do it.
Cause that would be way easier than all the other builds I pilot.
Why shouldn't I?
Pride? Dignity?
Just to get some silly comments from another person who have no idea how silly is his 4/5 PPC/poptart Highlander looking?
I'm not ok with that.
I'm not OK with people feeling forced to go that way just to start feel viable again.
Your words strike me like you're skilled, experienced player and you know, that when it's so you could "adapt"(meaning in this case - doing some silly things just to get around that boating/poptarding madness), but what about the rest of the community that lack that?
What about all the new players, that are not familiar with that or don't see that as their own playstyle?
I personally, after 2336 games to the current moment am having troubles dispatching even the average poptart exploiting the jumping mechanics and I'm having troubles dispatching some of the average PPC-Stalkers.

And I always feel wrong after the game end, no matter if it's victory of defeat, I'm feeling that lotta people are currently thinking - "hell... this s**t is working great for those guys, why don't I save some money and to the very same thing... the hell with it!".
The game got harder for me cause all of that - I don't mind it most of the time, I like challenges.
Even though the games in the high ELO has become redicilously stupidly filled with insane numbers of those builds, which I find incredibly silly - which sometimes is driving me away from my temper.

But I see we can agree on one thing, if not something else - this is wrong

And this without mentioning all the other issues like the fact, that a poptart highlander could be a not bad brawler, which cuts the numbers of the atlai big deal(well if not some silly 4-DDCs premade of course), since it could take almost as much punishment.
Like the fact, that none of the maps punish you if you go the heavy-alpha-sniper way, though some of them punish you if you go any other way around.
You actually don't feel this is right, don't you?

[Soy]

Valore what joke, poptarting is legitimate and it will always be. Look at every game since Donkey Kong

[Valore]

Soy, on 29 May 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Valore what joke, poptarting is legitimate and it will always be. Look at every game since Donkey Kong

poptart + rise again = terrible joke

Voidcrafter, on 29 May 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

I'm not OK with people feeling forced to go that way just to start feel viable again.
Your words strike me like you're skilled, experienced player and you know, that when it's so you could "adapt"(meaning in this case - doing some silly things just to get around that boating/poptarding madness), but what about the rest of the community that lack that?
What about all the new players, that are not familiar with that or don't see that as their own playstyle?
I personally, after 2336 games to the current moment am having troubles dispatching even the average poptart exploiting the jumping mechanics and I'm having troubles dispatching some of the average PPC-Stalkers.

PGI have already stated that they've put into testing potential JJ accuracy penalty fixes. So all the 'average' poptarts will soon be so much cannon fodder.

And that also makes all these useless QQfixit threads redundant. A fix is already in the works.

[Chavette]

what I meant is the change is coming, just wait a patch or two.

[Nebelfeuer]

What? Are they removing Players that tend to go the easy road instead of having fun in the next patches?

[Karl Streiger]

Valore, on 29 May 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

PGI have already stated that they've put into testing potential JJ accuracy penalty fixes. So all the 'average' poptarts will soon be so much cannon fodder.

And that also makes all these useless QQfixit threads redundant. A fix is already in the works.

Oh I'm really really curious about that fix?
I fear it is nothing less than shaking the cockpit when hit by ballistics... all that can remember sitting on the rumble seat when hit by multiple AC 2 rounds know what i mean.

And that will be a problem...because rumbling and shacking did not effect your aim... if you can ignore the shacking and knew were your crosshair was...you can still hit the target...or like some did in MW4 tanks to magical MWO C3 technology...aim low...jump - ignore what the crosshair looks like fire...

It will increase the barrier - however...not everybody will be able to do that instantly.

[Voidcrafter]

Karl Streiger, on 29 May 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Oh I'm really really curious about that fix?
I fear it is nothing less than shaking the cockpit when hit by ballistics... all that can remember sitting on the rumble seat when hit by multiple AC 2 rounds know what i mean.

And that will be a problem...because rumbling and shacking did not effect your aim... if you can ignore the shacking and knew were your crosshair was...you can still hit the target...or like some did in MW4 tanks to magical MWO C3 technology...aim low...jump - ignore what the crosshair looks like fire...

It will increase the barrier - however...not everybody will be able to do that instantly.

... But they'll eventually learn to do it right

Valore, on 29 May 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

PGI have already stated that they've put into testing potential JJ accuracy penalty fixes. So all the 'average' poptarts will soon be so much cannon fodder.

And that also makes all these useless QQfixit threads redundant. A fix is already in the works.

I got balls enough to not be QQin about a thing.
I got brains enough to complain and discuss mechanics that breaks the gameplay ballance when I rationally see the need to do so.
If nobody did that at the first place they weren't going to be a fix about it right?
And every time someone starts to fanatically defend something, constantly mentioning the "QQ" term I always picture that person using the same thing the topic is against.
Trying to make those people see the things the other way around is like trying to punch a steel wall and hope it breaks before your arms do.
With that in mind, even if we can't shake off our prejudices I'm quite sure neither can you.
And again - a bit harsh, but it's true most of the time - there is a slight difference between the people like me(ordinary - some decent percentage from those, who put a valid, argumented point for their... "QQ"-ing) and people like these:
They are ready to sacrifice just about EVERYTHING just to achieve a victory.
And I would never sacrifice my dignity for that

Personal choice you may call it, but either way - there are promises of "ballance" and "fair play" - things go way beyound that, so this fact leave people like me with the right to demand changes.
I don't think that you're the one who should judge if this is justifiable or not.
And I don't know why you have the impression that I don't know about the upcomming inaccuracy fix?
Since they nerfed the SRMs I'm always tracking the upcomming changes

[Tarl Cabot]

I myself use jump jets and it is fun smacking a poptart (those who tend to stay in one place) while I reposition myself (most of the time), and that is while observing what the enemy is doing and what the next steps should be. More importantly though those JJ are great when closing the distance and utilizing the JJ to mess with their targeting while firing down with arm-mounted weapons.

But I will endure to keep my distance from those who setup their mechs for brawling, and if they do not enjoy my mech's range and how I utilize it, you need to adapt also .

On the other hand, how would things be if the Extended range weapons, the ERLL and ERPPC were not in game until the Clans were released? We would still have these thread but release it with PPC and Gauss rifle (maybe large lasers). The ER PPC is the only real direct fire counter for the gauss rifle. Without the ER PPC there would be a few less mechs firing the rifle but it would still there.

The big question should be, "Will MWO stick with the time line for new Innersphere weapon release dates?".

Edited: To add my builds are either with 1 gauss/1erppc or 2erppc, since I do not expect to do all of my work at range I ensure I am setup for close range weapons also. Those builds with 3 or 4 erppc, sad day . But as for the jumping/firing we would have become more accustom to them if we had the unseen mechs, the shadow hawk, the phoenix hawk, the grasshopper, and so forth. The game overall has been weak on the available jump equip-able mechs.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 30 May 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

JJ shake won't fix anything. There is NO valid reason to implement shake when not firing JJs (aka going down), which means JJ sniping will still be there shake or no shake.

Unless PGI gets rid of automatic perfect weapon convergence 'alpha' builds will be dominating the battlefield. Obviousely best 'alpha' builds are those packing 'instant-fire' weapons with high velocity projectiles, relative low weapon weight and low or none ammo usage (aka PPCs).

Most people do jump-sniping because they have no idea how to fight up close. In theory you can easily beat jump-snipers if you get close to them with brawler mechs, but ... Without auto weapon convergence on close distances mechs with LBXs, SRMs etc. would have been tearing those snipers apart because these weapons would not need convergence (aka they would have been easy to use in close fight unlike PPCs, Gauss, Lasers). Problem is - auto convergence is here, SRM-LBX mechs do about same damage as PPC-Gauss mechs during a close range fight, but PPC-Gauss damage is pinpoint wherever you want it and SRM-LBX damage is spreading all over the mech.

Fix weapon covergence and you fix alpha-builds, pop-tarting and such. Canon BT builds become valid and game becomes fun for both new players who get the chance to try out different weapons (not just OP builds) and veteran players who actually have an idea about what this game (mechwarrior/battletech) is supposed to be.

[Livewyr]

Fix for Jumpsniper problem:

1: Introduce Heat Penalty.
2: Reintroduce/increase PPC's Heat. (There was a reason I said they were fine back when abrahms was whining about their heat, now they're medium heat, unlimited ammo, frontloaded AC2 speed, AC2+1 weight, DHS crit-slot monsters...)
3: Reduce the heat cap to a standard.
4: Add JJ shake at least one way up.

It won't get rid of Jumpsniping, I don't want that, but it will finally add a cost to doing it, and add an actual risk/challenge to it.

[Vodrin Thales]

Keifomofutu, on 29 May 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

It actually isn't. The only real skill is the ability to use teamwork and focus fire. PPC/Gauss makes that so easy it takes the skill out of that too. Brawlers have to be more coordinated by avoiding enemy fire on the way in and avoiding moving in one by one and getting picked off.

Honestly, brawling was easy back before the splash related SRM nerf that brought them back in line a bit. At least closing and fighting effectively at close range is challenging now. We just need to increase the heat on PPC's a bit and see where we are at.

[Neokenfu]

Keifomofutu, on 29 May 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

It actually isn't. The only real skill is the ability to use teamwork and focus fire. PPC/Gauss makes that so easy it takes the skill out of that too. Brawlers have to be more coordinated by avoiding enemy fire on the way in and avoiding moving in one by one and getting picked off.

Someone understands! Closing distance is a joke since 3 patches ago. The art of brawling is on life support and keep this up to FINISH HIM!!!

Lykaon, on 29 May 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Here is how you screw with this turtle jump snipe game.

2 lights with improved UAV
4 stalkers filled to the brim with LRMs
2 stalker PPC boats

Lights move in to deploy UAVs for LRM spotting
2 PPC boats cover for the lights counter sniping poptarts
LRM boats do what's obvious.


Make one kill then turtle your own base.

I understand this and it makes me sick to my stomach...what kind of PVP experience is THAT!?!?!?

[Parliment]

YA .... NERF EVRYTHING
Then make everyone run spiders for a week

[Rushin Roulette]

Oh... its THIS thread again.... I havent seen this lately... really not.


Funny thjing is, the Team Im playing with was accused of only boating poptarts during a league match last week and everyone got a ****** and jumped onto the band wagon....

Until I posted a screenshot of the team setup from the results....

Both teams were about equal in weight (They had a slight advantage as they had a heavy as opposed to a medium on our team). But the best was that we only had 3 mechs capable of carrying any form of Jumpjest and one of tehm wasnt even a sniper.

We had 2 popsnipers (Highlander and Cataphract), 1 LRM Assault (Highlander), 2 scouts and 3 short/medium range brawlers. We won with 8 kills to 2 and guess what . The 2 kills they got were our 2 popsnipers and all of our kills were from brawlers our brawlers.

Just because you see 1 or 2 popsnipers on the opposing team doesnt mean that they are being overused. If your team doesnt have a popsnier... Im betting that you have at least one PPC or Large Laser Stalker.... do you really think that they are not OP in your books as they have nearly 2 times the energy weapons that any Highlander can possibly carry.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 31 May 2013 - 12:35 AM.

[Neokenfu]

Valore, on 29 May 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

But the embarrassing thing is seeing all these people who are shouting for 'balance' when all it really is, is a bunch of people who can't adapt, and prefer to cry about it in the forums rather than reflect on their own skills.

Nice insult, I'm sure you have a wealth of first hand experience playing against me, to see what my team can and can't adapt to(sarcasm).

Quote

Engaging in all out brawls and grinding each other to dust, then having a round robin, happyslappy circlejerk of ggs is not 'skill'. Nor is it fun to those of us who actually enjoy a challenge.

Closing the distance with a brawler in the current game takes much more skill than: blob base, get semi covered, poptart anything that tries to close with converged alphas. If you endorse the mass poptart strat than you obviously aren't interested in a challenge.

Quote

But having an 8v8 where the end round screen shows 14 Highlanders, then realising you were on the better team because you won by adapting to the meta and leveraging your skills? That's REAL fun.

Maybe for you, but for me this passes any previously held cheese threshold. No game that claims competitive balance would have anything near as OP as the Poptart Highlander kit.

Take League of Legends for example, when Nocturne came out it was the most OP thing ever. You could reach anywhere and go toe to toe with any champ. They actually take balance seriously and nerfed him several times until he was consistent with game balance.

Quote

Winners gonna win, QQers gonna QQ. No matter what the FOTM is.

Aren't these forums a free exchange of info from players experiences? You just used a straw man to say I'm a QQer when really I'm just pasionate about competitive balance!

It's ok, you're the second lame aussie I've ever met. The dropbear joke was old ten years ago. Harden the fuc up and learn some new material...

[Razor1611]

Livewyr, on 30 May 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Fix for Jumpsniper problem:

1: Introduce Heat Penalty.
2: Reintroduce/increase PPC's Heat. (There was a reason I said they were fine back when abrahms was whining about their heat, now they're medium heat, unlimited ammo, frontloaded AC2 speed, AC2+1 weight, DHS crit-slot monsters...)
3: Reduce the heat cap to a standard.
4: Add JJ shake at least one way up.

It won't get rid of Jumpsniping, I don't want that, but it will finally add a cost to doing it, and add an actual risk/challenge to it.

How about we wont nerf anything but introduce Newton to the game? A mech that is hit while in flight gets kicked out of original jump/flight path and view direction. So if you hit a jumpsniper in the upper body he gets tilted backwards, if you hit him e.g. in the right torso, he gets turned to the right and so on. multiple hits result in multiple displacements.