64 replies to this topic

[Neokenfu]

Razor1611, on 31 May 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

How about we wont nerf anything but introduce Newton to the game? A mech that is hit while in flight gets kicked out of original jump/flight path and view direction. So if you hit a jumpsniper in the upper body he gets tilted backwards, if you hit him e.g. in the right torso, he gets turned to the right and so on. multiple hits result in multiple displacements.

That still wouldn't change the prevailing Poptart base defense meta.

[Lykaon]

LordBraxton, on 29 May 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

SRMs that hit like they should

would solve all these problems

because there would actually be a REWARD

for working your way in close

Good luck with that Seismic will have them facing you and blasting you to bits with precision alpha strike damage vs your by design spread damage from SRMs.

Reintroduction of brawl weapons that are not AC20s would be welcome but they will not solve the alpha spam that is the source of the QQ.

[Lykaon]

Nebuchadnezzar2, on 29 May 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Thing isn't going to change as long as lrm and long range weapon competing for dominance. Lrm encourages cover that means encouraging sniping and sniping encourages cover and tha also means encouraging indirect fire. Balance the you'll have perfectly balanced long range engagement only meta.

I vote for brawling meta because it is the only meta that creates opportunities for any other play
In brawling meta snipers will be happy with many available targets, lrm mech will also have more targets, better hit probability, their damage per match will rise. In brawling meta backstabing lights will be happy with many unsuspecting victim, falnkers will be happy in how they can change the outcome of the battle, scout will be happy on how they can set the engagement.

No meta over that many opportunity as brawling meta

The ultimate source of the problem is how this game is won.

Destroy "THEM" before they get "YOU".

This is done by maximizing precision damage while minimizing risk of suffering damage in return.

'Poptarting" is the evolution of maximizing damage dealing as well as maximizing cover to prevent taking damage.

Brawlers will still have to contend with closing the gap to be within brawling range and let's not fool ourselves the snipers have all the tools needed to minimize a brawlers chances to complete this task.

ECM is useful for snipers to manuver into sniping possition with reduced chances of being noticed.

Seismic sensors allow the sniper to be aware of any brawler's attempts to flank or dislodge them.

Due to being able to engage effectivley at long range and lacking significant disadvantages at short ranges a sniper is still a solid contender in brawling range.The reverse is not the case however a Brawler will not be effective at long ranges.

I have read several players opinions and suggestions on these issues and I have found only one suggestion that actually addresses the core issue adiquatley.

Limiting hardpoint critical sizes.

If the sniper builds were not 3-4 PPC + Gauss but instead 1 gauss 1 PPC and 2 Large lasers whould the brawler go pop in three salvos?
Probably not.
Would a highlander with 1 gauss 1 PPC and 2 Large lasers be crap?
Probably not.It just won't be a poptart alpha striking monster and those should be limited for the good of the game's future.

If you absolutley need a PPC boat alpha striker then go get an Awesome 8Q or 9M that is what those mechs are suppose to be and that would be an improvement over what they are now...exstinct!

[Razor1611]

Neokenfu, on 31 May 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

That still wouldn't change the prevailing Poptart base defense meta.

True. Still it would change jumpsniping without messing with to hit-, heatsink-, and or weapon balance.

I not sure if there can be done anything about basesitting. Besides removing bases, or relocating homebases to a central base for both teams. So you would have to move to the middle to not lose the base to cappers.

[SixBottles]

Tennex, on 29 May 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Hopefully JJ only shake when holding down space and not when free falling

how would that change anything? if there is no shake on free fall, u can just wait when u reached the max height and fire...
the shake should be there all the way... not too much so u cant hit a barn right in front of you... but it should screw with your aiming so u miss those 1000m snipeshots at a moving target once in a while...

[Mister Blastman]

Solving Convergence is the ONLY solution to this problem.

Everything else is half-assed.

Convergence is the real problem and has been since Mechwarrior 3.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Joseph Mallan]

SixBottles, on 31 May 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

how would that change anything? if there is no shake on free fall, u can just wait when u reached the max height and fire...
the shake should be there all the way... not too much so u cant hit a barn right in front of you... but it should screw with your aiming so u miss those 1000m snipeshots at a moving target once in a while...

No I don't think so. But once the jets stop and free fall begins it should be a rapid decent! 20+ tons don't fall like a feather.

[jakucha]

That PPC cooldown change wasn't meant to fix it. They haven't implemented the JJ shake thing they talked about either. They've been brainstorming ideas for not just PPC alpha spam but high damage alpha spam in general, so we'll see.

Edited by jakucha, 31 May 2013 - 03:41 AM.

[Av4tar]

Neokenfu, on 29 May 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

PPC/ERPPC Poptart turtling, along with UAV, seismic, has completely ruined 8 man!!!

People just take 6-7 Poptarts and defend their base in 8.  It takes zero skill to hit someone in one spot with 2xPPC & a Gauss.

</p>What kind of tactics do you use? Do you use covers? If you stand behind covers even 1000 poptarters cant hit you

Neokenfu, on 29 May 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Suggestions: nerf PPC's/ERPPC's and buff SRM's! Everyone has jump jets and you may have not included that into your balancing equation.

Nerfing is only for amatuer, rebalancing is the key. Nerfing weapons will not stop ppl jump and shot.Smokegrenades which can cover your area or Longtom is a better solution.

[Mr 144]

Livewyr, on 30 May 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Fix for Jumpsniper problem:

1: Introduce Heat Penalty.
2: Reintroduce/increase PPC's Heat. (There was a reason I said they were fine back when abrahms was whining about their heat, now they're medium heat, unlimited ammo, frontloaded AC2 speed, AC2+1 weight, DHS crit-slot monsters...)
3: Reduce the heat cap to a standard.
4: Add JJ shake at least one way up.

It won't get rid of Jumpsniping, I don't want that, but it will finally add a cost to doing it, and add an actual risk/challenge to it.

Point 2 is ridiculous and always has been. Before the heat fix, PPCs were too Hot and ERPPCs were impossible. There are 2 'problems' if you can call them that...

#1 SRMs...yes, I know you don't like hearing it, but SRMs is what Brawlers lack to be a 'real' threat. Inteligent use of cover...etc...to close the distance should ruin a snipers day. If a Brawler successfully closes...the sniper has already failed. Right now that is not the case. Now the 'Brawler' has to close the distance just to be 'almost' equal footing and realistically still under-gunned.

This is only HALF of it though. An SRM fix would go a long way, but it's not quite the magic bullet. Boating penalties are also not a solution...frankly they're an insult to game mechanics. It would be a system specifically implemented to counter their own ineptitude at balancing. Which leads us to....

#2 Overheat. There needs to be a scale past 100%. Currently, Alpha at 99% spikng to 149% to induce shutdown is no different than Alpha at 51% spiking to 101% to induce shutdown other than re-start timing. There needs to be internal damage penalties for repetatively spiking past 100% heat and graduated based on how far overheat you go.

On a personal note Livewyr...you really need to stop patting yourself on the back with the 'I told you so'...when you are not right. Yes, this is my opinion, but you cannot establish any correlation to your prediction and the current state of the game. The only thing your original intention on PPC heat does is shift the meta. It does not in any way shape or form, Fix anything.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 31 May 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

PPC=10 Heat
ERPPC=15 heat
So it has been written so should it be!

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 May 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

PPC=10 Heat
ERPPC=15 heat
So it has been written so should it be!

Better to call it 1HPS and 1.5HPS
They don't have to do same damage on shot and same RoF.
Could imagine that ER-PPC have longer cool down for more damage on hit....wait...that will be a MWO Clan ER-PPC right?

[Livewyr]

Mr 144, on 31 May 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Point 2 is ridiculous and always has been. Before the heat fix, PPCs were too Hot and ERPPCs were impossible. There are 2 'problems' if you can call them that...

#1 SRMs...yes, I know you don't like hearing it, but SRMs is what Brawlers lack to be a 'real' threat. Inteligent use of cover...etc...to close the distance should ruin a snipers day. If a Brawler successfully closes...the sniper has already failed. Right now that is not the case. Now the 'Brawler' has to close the distance just to be 'almost' equal footing and realistically still under-gunned.

This is only HALF of it though. An SRM fix would go a long way, but it's not quite the magic bullet. Boating penalties are also not a solution...frankly they're an insult to game mechanics. It would be a system specifically implemented to counter their own ineptitude at balancing. Which leads us to....

#2 Overheat. There needs to be a scale past 100%. Currently, Alpha at 99% spikng to 149% to induce shutdown is no different than Alpha at 51% spiking to 101% to induce shutdown other than re-start timing. There needs to be internal damage penalties for repetatively spiking past 100% heat and graduated based on how far overheat you go.

On a personal note Livewyr...you really need to stop patting yourself on the back with the 'I told you so'...when you are not right. Yes, this is my opinion, but you cannot establish any correlation to your prediction and the current state of the game. The only thing your original intention on PPC heat does is shift the meta. It does not in any way shape or form, Fix anything.

Mr 144

Funny thing is, I'm trying out the 3PPC Cataphract.. holy mother of easy mode.

When running/Jumpjetting an Alpha strike (30 points pinpoint/ranged) causes me 27% heat.
When sitting still, about 23%.. with 17 DHS.. that dissipates fast.

The thing is friggen easy mode.

No ammo worry.
No risk of any explosion whatsoever
I'm even running a standard engine with mostly full armor
Pinpoint repeatable alpha strike..

The only weakness the PPC had was the heat.. and they took that away.. how would *YOU* fix the PPC?

-------------------------
Yes, I can correlate.. my prediction to the current PPC meta.

If you remove all weaknesses of a strong range weapon, it becomes THE weapon. and THE weapon becomes the META weapon.

I told abrahms and crew that back when they were whining about PPC heat.. heat was the only weakness for it.

Now the heat got nerfed, the weapon has no weakness, and the inevitable happened.

Edited by Livewyr, 31 May 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[Mr 144]

Livewyr, on 31 May 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Funny thing is, I'm trying out the 3PPC Cataphract.. holy mother of easy mode.

When running/Jumpjetting an Alpha strike (30 points pinpoint/ranged) causes me 27% heat.
When sitting still, about 23%.. with 17 DHS.. that dissipates fast.

The thing is friggen easy mode.

No ammo worry.
No risk of any explosion whatsoever
I'm even running a standard engine with mostly full armor
Pinpoint repeatable alpha strike..

The only weakness the PPC had was the heat.. and they took that away.. how would *YOU* fix the PPC?

-------------------------
Yes, I can correlate.. my prediction to the current PPC meta.

If you remove all weaknesses of a strong range weapon, it becomes THE weapon. and THE weapon becomes the META weapon.

I told abrahms and crew that back when they were whining about PPC heat.. heat was the only weakness for it.

Now the heat got nerfed, the weapon has no weakness, and the inevitable happened.

I wouldn't. I don't think there's anything to fix.

Standard PPCs have pretty bad limitations to work around. They're hot..they have a pretty low max range for typical sniping (a fact often overlooked) an annoying min range scale...and the 3 crit limitation means Gauss+XL+PPC can not inhabit the same side torso...even if you were willing to take that risk.

ERPPCs are VERY hot. So much so that 2 is often the realistic limit without manipulating the no-penalty overheat mechanic. Sniping they're excellent with the increased range, but even without min range penalties, you're using 22 heat to replace an AC/20's 6 heat. Nice in a pinch, but not something you depend upon.

As far as a 3xPPC 'phract? Meh...nothing broken there...in fact, I'd call that a bad build. Any build specializing in pinpoint damage needs to keep the option open for headshots...and 30 damage falls short. I don't mind that build at all...definately not OP in any way I can see.

Mr 144

Edit to your Edit...

It's only THE weapon, because DPS is irrelevant and there are no high penalty/high alpha short range weapons to compensate (SRMs). The 1 sec cooldown increase changed nothing meta-wise, but it did change DPS significantly...from 3.33 to 2.5 which does affect it's bawling capabilities. If overheat mechanics were revised, this would be a big factor. If SRMs are again viable, the combination of both would reduce PPCs to very good sniping weapon...where they belong. ERPPCs should be taken for there max range boost and there Oh **** short-range fail-safe....NOT as a brawlers weapon as they are now.

Edited by Mr 144, 31 May 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[Livewyr]

Mr 144, on 31 May 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

I wouldn't. I don't think there's anything to fix.

Standard PPCs have pretty bad limitations to work around. They're hot..they have a pretty low max range for typical sniping (a fact often overlooked) an annoying min range scale...and the 3 crit limitation means Gauss+XL+PPC can not inhabit the same side torso...even if you were willing to take that risk.

ERPPCs are VERY hot. So much so that 2 is often the realistic limit without manipulating the no-penalty overheat mechanic. Sniping they're excellent with the increased range, but even without min range penalties, you're using 22 heat to replace an AC/20's 6 heat. Nice in a pinch, but not something you depend upon.

As far as a 3xPPC 'phract? Meh...nothing broken there...in fact, I'd call that a bad build. Any build specializing in pinpoint damage needs to keep the option open for headshots...and 30 damage falls short. I don't mind that build at all...definately not OP in any way I can see.

Mr 144

Edit to your Edit...

It's only THE weapon, because DPS is irrelevant and there are no high penalty/high alpha short range weapons to compensate (SRMs). The 1 sec cooldown increase changed nothing meta-wise, but it did change DPS significantly...from 3.33 to 2.5 which does affect it's bawling capabilities. If overheat mechanics were revised, this would be a big factor. If SRMs are again viable, the combination of both would reduce PPCs to very good sniping weapon...where they belong. ERPPCs should be taken for there max range boost and there Oh **** short-range fail-safe....NOT as a brawlers weapon as they are now.

(First a side note, 30 pinpoint damage with someone who can aim, which includes me, is devastating to any mech, Atlases can take more hits than a heavy, but only so many to torsos, especially rear torsos... the 3PPC repeatable alpha unlimited ammo build is ridiculous... it ISN'T HOT.)


I don't get why people think SRMs are going to save us from the PPC meta...do people not remember what happened to Splatcats (even before the missile nerf) when Alpine came out?
Splatcats found out that PPCs and Gauss neutered them before they had a chance.

SRMs are balanced (when their damage is restored)
They have high damage.
They have a short range, and nothing beyond it.
They have explosive ammo.
They generate medium heat. (SRM6 roughly half that of a PPC, for less than half the range)
Their damage is spread out.

AC20s are balanced.
They have high damage.
They are heavy.
They have explosive ammo.
They have short/medium range
They take up 10 critical slots

PPCs are ridiculous:
They have long range. (not ultra-super long like the AC2/ERPPC, but long range.)
They are unlimited ammo.
They have medium damage.
They have no explosive weapon.
They have no explosive ammo.
They have (formerly) "high" heat. (now roughly that of two SRM6s)
They are medium weight
They are small weapons.

Their one weakness, 90meters reduced damage, is very minor. 90 meters is traversed easily, and even within 90, they're not harmless (like missiles are)

Point me to a REAL weakness.

[Vodrin Thales]

Mr 144, on 31 May 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Point 2 is ridiculous and always has been. Before the heat fix, PPCs were too Hot and ERPPCs were impossible. There are 2 'problems' if you can call them that...

I think his point is correct. Yes PPC's were a bit too hot before the fix, but they were usable. I think a two point reduction in heat was too much. Adding a point back will bring PPC's closer to balance as they are a bit too good right now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 31 May 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Better to call it 1HPS and 1.5HPS
They don't have to do same damage on shot and same RoF.
Could imagine that ER-PPC have longer cool down for more damage on hit....wait...that will be a MWO Clan ER-PPC right?

Please don't get me started on rate of fire v Rate of dispersion V length of a turn.

[Mr 144]

Meh Livewyr....we've been going back and forth for months now. I consider you intelligent (you are from WI after-all). I'd like to run with you and chat for a bit. I think we've gotten to the point where forum text can only go 'round in circles...and a face-to-face so-to-speak would do us both good on perspectives. You're one of the few people I disagree with that I don't understand...and that bothers me..lol. Wanna run/chat on TS ?

On PPCs...I think these are really ficticious poster-childs...as using normal PPCs means one of two things..

#1: Runs 2 + ballistic AND has supplementary weapons
#2 Boats 6

Mr 144

[Joseph Mallan]

Vodrin Thales, on 31 May 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I think his point is correct. Yes PPC's were a bit too hot before the fix, but they were usable. I think a two point reduction in heat was too much. Adding a point back will bring PPC's closer to balance as they are a bit too good right now.

I used both PPC and ERPPCs (well one of each) before the heat change. They both worked fine. In a payload of Gauss, 3x SRM6 and a ERPPC, that one weapon was perfect. Two PPCs are supposed to be Hel on your heat scale but deadly to hit with.

[Vodrin Thales]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 May 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

I used both PPC and ERPPCs (well one of each) before the heat change. They both worked fine. In a payload of Gauss, 3x SRM6 and a ERPPC, that one weapon was perfect. Two PPCs are supposed to be Hel on your heat scale but deadly to hit with.

I used PPC's more before the buff than since. They are a bit too easy to use now and I like a challenge. Nothing is more satisfying than killing a player using a FOTM build with weapons that are supposed to be "gimped".