79 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

I think PGI needs to sit down and think what they had in mind for this weapon.

In the Past the PPC was a sniper weapon that was probably a bit too hot but the speed felt right as you could dodge it at long range easily, mid range it took effort to dodge and right before you got too close you could rarely ever evade the hit.

The current weapon is used primarily around 200-400m as a high damage alpha strike. This is just stupid considering the intended ranges for these weapons. And while the poptart craze will die down with the addition of JJ shake I am worried it will not be enough. You will still see PPCs as the dominant weapon because they are so much better than everything else.

We as a community were skeptical when you doubled armor (and didn't double ammunition /sigh) but it made sense with the pace of the game last year. The pace of the game this year almost makes me want to ask you to double armor against PPC weapons. Yes they are that bad. I don't know about you but I had a lot of fun last year when I first got into this game. Boating was still a problem but it wasn't that big of a deal because higher damage weapons (pulse lasers) had less range. You didn't die from 2-3 hits like you do now. It is way too easy to die in just a few volleys and PPCs are the main culprit.

If you decide that the PPC is a sniper weapon I humbly ask that you make it terrible for "short range" fighting (anything less than 450m). The best way to do this is to make the weapon travel slowly at first and increase as it moves away from the shooter. What speed should the PPC travel at 450 meters? I think the answer is something like 100m/s or less. With a little bit of work you can still make the ERPPC hit a target at 1500m at the same speed as though it were traveling 2000m/s the entire time. Likewise you can scale back the regular PPC for its intended range.

If you decide the PPC is a brawler weapon (note that is what it is right now) then you need to make significant changes to the lasers weapons and SRMs as they pale in comparison to the 'OP' PC.

Every game is the same boring crap. A couple of lights try to make you chase them and then their friends come along when you do and put 6-8 PPCs in your torso and the game is over. Or you have an entire team all sitting in the same spot (even in conquest) with PPCs and Gauss rifles poping up to shoot you with large alphas and taking no damage in return.

I still feel that any and all FPS games need to come with the anti bunny hop mechanic: receive 300% damage while you are jumping. It's a guaranteed end to B*llsh*ttery mechanics. Even if the enemies missed you this measure would make jumpers save fuel for the landing (which they never do now) because they would break their legs in ~20 jumps. Note the increased jump damage should only be for mechs heavier than 40 tons.

Edited by Glythe, 30 May 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

PPCs are a hard hitting Energy Weapon that can fill Fire Support, Mid range brawling an sniping. It does not have to fill just one role.

[NachoFoot]

Regular PPCs are underwhelming. They are only really good for peek-a-boo or poptart sniping at mid-range.

Edited by NachoFoot, 30 May 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[tenderloving]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

PPCs are a hard hitting Energy Weapon that can fill Fire Support, Mid range brawling an sniping. It does not have to fill just one role.

This is true but it shouldn't be better than the weapons that were specifically designed for those roles. What OP is saying is that the PPC appears to be a "Jack of all trades, Master of all" weapon.

[Glythe]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

PPCs are a hard hitting Energy Weapon that can fill Fire Support, Mid range brawling an sniping. It does not have to fill just one role.

I'm going to have to disagree with you because every weapon in this game has an intended range and purpose. If one weapon fills all rolls then that weapon is broken when compared to all the rest. Go play 10 games and count the number PPC mechs vs non PPC mechs. You will always find more PPC mechs in the current meta because they are better. They shouldn't always be better all the time; they should be better for one specific role (like the rest of the weapons in the game).

[Joseph Mallan]

Glythe, on 30 May 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you because every weapon in this game has an intended range and purpose. If one weapon fills all rolls then that weapon is broken when compared to all the rest. Go play 10 games and count the number PPC mechs vs non PPC mechs. You will always find more PPC mechs in the current meta because they are better. They shouldn't always be better all the time; they should be better for one specific role (like the rest of the weapons in the game).

It's oK if you disagree. he only thing a PPC is not intended to be is a Knife fighting weapon. That is due to its Minimum range. The PPC fills the same role as a Large Laser it only does it with more damage, a bit more range and a bit more heat. The Large laser is only better at knife fighting. PPC is the BFG Energy weapon, of course it will be most prominent. In my 4 accounts I have exactly 2 PPCs. Both on a Blackjack. My Highlander 3x Large lasers, My 5 Atlas all lasers. People will gravitate to what they feel works best. Its why My Mechs mostly have Lasers, Gauss and SRM6.

[Grits N Gravy]

They've taken the ability to 3 or 4 shoot a mech away from every other weapon system. Couple the jump snipers ability to do that with relatively open maps and of course the battles are going to resemble what we have now.

I think screen shake is the worst way to handle the problem. As the "shake" will have to oscillate at least half of a mechs size per "shake" to make it hard to aim a jumping mech, which is so violent it may induce motion sickness. Plus it's easy to counter by firing on the down glide. IE jump high, turn off jets and fire as you fall, since no jets are on, you won't be shaking, and it's not hard to pull off.

You could add more armor, reduce the damage of the PPC, which is really the same thing. Or slightly buff the medium range weapons and fix the maps. Probably the simplest solution would be to create a rule that states mech's jumping stay detected by sensors for and additional 6-10 seconds once LOS has been broken.

Edited by Grits N Gravy, 30 May 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Or disable the ability to fire while jumping!

[Cyke]

If you're referring to the Extended Range PPC, they are supposed to be good at everything.. but at the cost of crippling amounts of heat.

As the cycle time tweak from 3.0s to 4.0s has demonstrated*, the effective sustained fire rate of PPCs (and especially ER PPCs) is determined by heat dissipation, not cycle time. My sustained fire rate has not decreased whatsoever despite the 33% increase in cycle time.

Therefore, simply boosting the heat for PPCs and ER PPCs back to 10 and 15 respectively will significantly reduce their effective fire rate at close range, and put them where they need to be: awesome weapons, but with the huge drawback that they're meant to have.


Anyway, every attempt at game balance suggestions, no matter how rational or logical, no matter the level of agreement or lack of possible downsides to a change no matter how hard we try to come up with any.. none of the suggestions seem to be taken into account anyway. The months just roll by.
It's like we're just posting these things for the sake of being able to say we posted it.


* - I'm aware that the increase in cycle time is to match all other energy weapons that have a 4.0s cycle, if laser duration is taken into account, and not a game balance tweak

[Ngamok]

in TT and Lore, energy weapons are favored in long term fighting so mechs wouldn't be ammo dependent. It's a long range fire support weapon much like a Gauss is.

[Roland]

Max optimal range for a PPC is only, what, 650m?

It's not really "a sniper weapon", solely. It was considered a primary weapons system for a ton of mechs.

[MustrumRidcully]

The PPC was considered a medium range weapon, IIRC, the ER PPC is a long range weapon, however.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 30 May 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Max optimal range for a PPC is only, what, 650m?

It's not really "a sniper weapon", solely. It was considered a primary weapons system for a ton of mechs.

On TT that was like 18 Hexes on a map that was 28(ish), LRMs went 21 hexes and Gauss was ...22 hex(?). It was a long range weapon.

[LordBraxton]

it is intended to be the only weapon worth taking

PPC is long range

ERPPC is extreme range

I love the hate towards poptarts, when stalkers are much more dangerous

Edited by LordBraxton, 30 May 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Zaptruder]

PPCs aren't sniping weapons; they're energy cannons.

Large heavy, hard hitting weapons with good distance.

In that sense, they fufill their goal admirably. And when married to pin point convergence - too well.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zaptruder, on 30 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

PPCs aren't sniping weapons; they're energy cannons.

Large heavy, hard hitting weapons with good distance.

In that sense, they fufill their goal admirably. And when married to pin point convergence - too well.

...
...
...
And what is a Sniper weapon but a good hard hitting distance weapon?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 May 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[Glythe]

Cyke, on 30 May 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

If you're referring to the Extended Range PPC, they are supposed to be good at everything.. but at the cost of crippling amounts of heat.

As the cycle time tweak from 3.0s to 4.0s has demonstrated*, the effective sustained fire rate of PPCs (and especially ER PPCs) is determined by heat dissipation, not cycle time. My sustained fire rate has not decreased whatsoever despite the 33% increase in cycle time.

Therefore, simply boosting the heat for PPCs and ER PPCs back to 10 and 15 respectively will significantly reduce their effective fire rate at close range, and put them where they need to be: awesome weapons, but with the huge drawback that they're meant to have.

That's the problem..... you can make a 4 medium laser build on an Atlas with an AC/20 and you're outgunned by 2 ERPPC+Gauss (due to pinpoint damage and fire rate). That's messed up. When a weapon went from nearly 1% usage to 60% usage or more you know it is completely broken.

Medium and small lasers are the knife fighters and they suck at this role compared to ERPPCs. That again is stupid and needs to change.

I think the old heat values for PPCs were crippling to be honest but the real problem is the firing delay. Give them a 10 second firing delay and people will use them for long range and support.... and the JJ build will be dead. They are not a skill weapon despite what you'd like to think because ALL the damage goes to one place and it is incredibly easy to aim at point blank range.

Compare 2 ERPPCs to an AC/20 and you start to see which weapon is inherently better than the other. IF the ac/20 had an autoknockdown feature for anything less than 80 tons it might be interesting. At the end of the day the AC/20 has been screwed since the double armor but not double ammunition changes. When you have PPCs that have infinite ammo, faster projectiles and no heat problems you have a better weapon in every possible situation.

The short version is that if PPCs stay the only omni range weapon in the game (read as incredibly OP) then most people who are still bothering to play will quit. I don't care what you'd like to happen there needs to be a benefit to medium and small lasers. Namely they should shred a PPC+Gauss user at close range. The PPC cannot stay the best weapon if you want this to be a fair and balanced game.

There's a near infinite list of ways the PPC could be nerfed. Why don't we make the PPC be the low damage to armor high damage to internals weapon? Wouldn't that be hilarious.

[ZonbiBadger]

Cyke, on 30 May 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

If you're referring to the Extended Range PPC, they are supposed to be good at everything.. but at the cost of crippling amounts of heat.

As the cycle time tweak from 3.0s to 4.0s has demonstrated*, the effective sustained fire rate of PPCs (and especially ER PPCs) is determined by heat dissipation, not cycle time. My sustained fire rate has not decreased whatsoever despite the 33% increase in cycle time.

Therefore, simply boosting the heat for PPCs and ER PPCs back to 10 and 15 respectively will significantly reduce their effective fire rate at close range, and put them where they need to be: awesome weapons, but with the huge drawback that they're meant to have.


Anyway, every attempt at game balance suggestions, no matter how rational or logical, no matter the level of agreement or lack of possible downsides to a change no matter how hard we try to come up with any.. none of the suggestions seem to be taken into account anyway. The months just roll by.
It's like we're just posting these things for the sake of being able to say we posted it.


* - I'm aware that the increase in cycle time is to match all other energy weapons that have a 4.0s cycle, if laser duration is taken into account, and not a game balance tweak

Heat penalties definitely need to be rescaled. Though the pinpoint damage needs to be addressed as well.

[Hellcat420]

tenderloving, on 30 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

This is true but it shouldn't be better than the weapons that were specifically designed for those roles. What OP is saying is that the PPC appears to be a "Jack of all trades, Master of all" weapon.

that is essentially what the ppc(well the erppc) is. the problem is that mechs are loading up with a bunch of ppc, when only a couple of innersphere mechs should be able to carry more than 2 at this point in the timeline, and most should not really even be able to carry one. there is nothing wrong with the ppc, the problem is with the mechlab making innersphere mechs essentially omnimechs.

Edited by Hellcat420, 30 May 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Hobgoblin I]

I think the convergence in this game is just too good to not want to boat PPC's. No matter the rate of fire or heat produced if someone has a legitimate chance of getting a one shot there will be many builds for it.