17 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

You know how PPCs are the current meta?

How right now they're:
Unlimited Ammo (Energy)
2000 Speed (Same as AC2, second only to lasers)
7tons (1 ton heavier than the smallest anti-mech ballistic weapon)
3 critical spaces (same as a Double heatsink)
And the same heat/damage ratio as a medium laser (with twice the range)?

This is my big fat I-Told-You-So to all those people that hopped right on board with Abrahms back several months ago. When you were whining about how PPCs generate too much heat, how it didn't compare with Gauss Rifles..

Not paying attention to the factors of weight/space/ammo comparisons etc...

Congratulations, they (because of you) removed the only drawback of the PPC/ERPPC;

PPC meta.
----------------------

When you're discussing weapons changes, try thinking about multiple angles and game-play implications.

-Livewyr

[Jasen]

LOL, I love you for trying.

[Victor Morson]

PPC buffs did not cause our current situation. Missile nerfs did, helped by lackluster ballistics and inferior pulse lasers.

I cannot stress this enough. All you need is to take one look at the two week or so period when:

- PPCs got buffed
- Before missiles got nerfed

You saw PPCs snipers all the time - sure. Entire teams of them, like 2 or 3. But you know what you did not see? Teams of 7+ of them.

Why is that? Simple. You could get run up on by SRM brawlers that move faster and hit WAY harder inside if close range, and wreck you. Likewise, if you decided to run along popping away in the open, you would be murdered by LRMs in PUGs, even if their flight path & speed made them worthless in 8 mans.

... that's all gone now. There are only the following viable primary weapons in the game: Medium Laser, (ER)PPC, Gauss, UAC/5, Streak/2. Some others like Small Lasers are alright for backup weapons.

Given Streak/2s are only boatable on a couple 'mechs and most of the 'mechs with enough ballistics to run UAC/5 are poorly armored, and there you have it. The reason for our current meta.

We do not need more PPC or Gauss nerfs. They really aren't the problem. They are, IMO, spot on and I don't mind the 1-second more delay on the PPCs. These buffs did not cause the current meta; you all seem to be forgetting that PPCs were entirely worthless weapons before the buff. The buff made them worthwhile. If you put them back like that, they would go back to being worthless.

.... and you know what that means? Welcome back to Gauss fest '13.

No more nerf stuff. We need buffs. A lot of buffs.

[Jasen]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

*trim*

I like your post overall but I think gauss need a small buff in survivability, ERPPC's need some sort of brawling nerf, maybe even just straight up min-range, and ppc's seem... ok, maybe those are about right.


EDIT:

i want SRMs back before nerfing the ERPPC tho now that I think about it.

Edited by Jasen, 30 May 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Livewyr]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

PPC buffs did not cause our current situation. Missile nerfs did, helped by lackluster ballistics and inferior pulse lasers.

I cannot stress this enough. All you need is to take one look at the two week or so period when:

- PPCs got buffed
- Before missiles got nerfed

You saw PPCs snipers all the time - sure. Entire teams of them, like 2 or 3. But you know what you did not see? Teams of 7+ of them.

Why is that? Simple. You could get run up on by SRM brawlers that move faster and hit WAY harder inside if close range, and wreck you. Likewise, if you decided to run along popping away in the open, you would be murdered by LRMs in PUGs, even if their flight path & speed made them worthless in 8 mans.

... that's all gone now. There are only the following viable primary weapons in the game: Medium Laser, (ER)PPC, Gauss, UAC/5, Streak/2. Some others like Small Lasers are alright for backup weapons.

Given Streak/2s are only boatable on a couple 'mechs and most of the 'mechs with enough ballistics to run UAC/5 are poorly armored, and there you have it. The reason for our current meta.

We do not need more PPC or Gauss nerfs. They really aren't the problem. They are, IMO, spot on and I don't mind the 1-second more delay on the PPCs. These buffs did not cause the current meta; you all seem to be forgetting that PPCs were entirely worthless weapons before the buff. The buff made them worthwhile. If you put them back like that, they would go back to being worthless.

.... and you know what that means? Welcome back to Gauss fest '13.

No more nerf stuff. We need buffs. A lot of buffs.

Without changing PPCs:

1: Bringing back SRMs just means you get alphasniped on your way to use them.
2: Bringing back LRMs just means that you (or your spotter) get alphasniped while you're maintaining lock for the missiles to hit.


-------------
If it became Gauss fest again, I'd be okay with that comparatively. Gauss Rifles have drawbacks.

Gauss Rifles are the heaviest in the game.
Gauss Rifles have limited ammo. (which will be even bigger in 12v12, which will not change PPCs)
Gauss Rifles are the 2nd largest weapon in the game, harder to mount, easier to crit.
Gauss Rifles explode when destroyed, and are fragile enough to do so more easily than most weapons.

[Victor Morson]

Jasen, on 30 May 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

I like your post overall but I think gauss need a small buff in survivability, ERPPC's need some sort of brawling nerf, maybe even just straight up min-range, and ppc's seem... ok, maybe those are about right.


EDIT:

i want SRMs back before nerfing the ERPPC tho now that I think about it.

I think ER PPCs already have a huge nerf in terms of heat; you can really only afford to run 2, even on an assault.

The best way to nerf them in an infight is to buff AC/10, AC/20, LBX/10, Pulse Lasers and most importantly, SRM, so up close the brawler can tear off half your armor while you're trying to cool from the first shot.

Livewyr, on 30 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Without changing PPCs:

1: Bringing back SRMs just means you get alphasniped on your way to use them.
2: Bringing back LRMs just means that you (or your spotter) get alphasniped while you're maintaining lock for the missiles to hit.

Do you know how I realize this is not what would happen with absolute certainty?

The recent LRM apocalypse when the splash was going into the CT. While overpowered, we were seeing a LOT of 'mechs emerge before they aborted it - this included brawlers going after missile boats, a FEW snipers to specifically to support them while they pushed in, etc. Sure our only real brawling options were ACs, Lasers, and Streaks..

... but even with "really badly" OP LRMs and nothing else, we started to see designs that were neither sniper or missile boater in both pugs and 8-man. Had they left that alone for another week, I don't even know if LRMs would be that big a threat anymore, even WITH the bugs, but it sure did inspire a lot of changes to the balance ecosystem.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 May 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[Jasen]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

*trim*

You make good points sir.

[Livewyr]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

I think ER PPCs already have a huge nerf in terms of heat; you can really only afford to run 2, even on an assault.

The best way to nerf them in an infight is to buff AC/10, AC/20, LBX/10, Pulse Lasers and most importantly, SRM, so up close the brawler can tear off half your armor while you're trying to cool from the first shot.




Do you know how I realize this is not what would happen with absolute certainty?

The recent LRM apocalypse when the splash was going into the CT. While overpowered, we were seeing a LOT of 'mechs emerge before they aborted it - this included brawlers going after missile boats, a FEW snipers to specifically to support them while they pushed in, etc. Sure our only real brawling options were ACs, Lasers, and Streaks..

... but even with "really badly" OP LRMs and nothing else, we started to see designs that were neither sniper or missile boater in both pugs and 8-man. Had they left that alone for another week, I don't even know if LRMs would be that big a threat anymore, even WITH the bugs, but it sure did inspire a lot of changes to the balance ecosystem.

What about a brawler at 500 meters away... (on say: Alpine or Tourmaline)

The rise in LRM usage was to test them, little more.
So long as Alphasniping with PPCs is as viable as it is now, it will trump everything.

Outranges brawlers.
Out-"speeds" LRMs. (They can shoot you before the missiles arrive, while you have to stand in the open, and then return to cover.)
Out-Boats ballistics.
Oneshots Lights (or one-shot legs them)
Same to Mediums.
Doesn't care if it misses.

Edited by Livewyr, 30 May 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Isnt the issue the heat system not the exact heat level of each weapon?

MORE ANGLES!!!!

[Lykaon]

Livewyr, on 30 May 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

You know how PPCs are the current meta?

How right now they're:
Unlimited Ammo (Energy)
2000 Speed (Same as AC2, second only to lasers)
7tons (1 ton heavier than the smallest anti-mech ballistic weapon)
3 critical spaces (same as a Double heatsink)
And the same heat/damage ratio as a medium laser (with twice the range)?

This is my big fat I-Told-You-So to all those people that hopped right on board with Abrahms back several months ago. When you were whining about how PPCs generate too much heat, how it didn't compare with Gauss Rifles..

Not paying attention to the factors of weight/space/ammo comparisons etc...

Congratulations, they (because of you) removed the only drawback of the PPC/ERPPC;

PPC meta.
----------------------

When you're discussing weapons changes, try thinking about multiple angles and game-play implications.

-Livewyr

I think that buffing direct fire weapons before Hit State Rewind was another mistake that may require back pedaling to retain balance.

[Nauht]

I dont know why SRMs were nerfed personally. I can guess and put the blame on the Cat A1 like everyone else but it seems really silly to nerf an entire weapon system just because of one config.

No, I think it's more in line with PGI's vision and hs doing too much damage. Wasnt there a Paul/Garth post/interview/something that had them stating they felt that damage was still a little high?

Be it as it may but now the mediums and those mechs that fielded SRMs normally are screwed, left with one less brawling option.

[ZonbiBadger]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

PPC buffs did not cause our current situation. Missile nerfs did, helped by lackluster ballistics and inferior pulse lasers.

I cannot stress this enough. All you need is to take one look at the two week or so period when:

- PPCs got buffed
- Before missiles got nerfed

You saw PPCs snipers all the time - sure. Entire teams of them, like 2 or 3. But you know what you did not see? Teams of 7+ of them.

Why is that? Simple. You could get run up on by SRM brawlers that move faster and hit WAY harder inside if close range, and wreck you. Likewise, if you decided to run along popping away in the open, you would be murdered by LRMs in PUGs, even if their flight path & speed made them worthless in 8 mans.

... that's all gone now. There are only the following viable primary weapons in the game: Medium Laser, (ER)PPC, Gauss, UAC/5, Streak/2. Some others like Small Lasers are alright for backup weapons.

Given Streak/2s are only boatable on a couple 'mechs and most of the 'mechs with enough ballistics to run UAC/5 are poorly armored, and there you have it. The reason for our current meta.

We do not need more PPC or Gauss nerfs. They really aren't the problem. They are, IMO, spot on and I don't mind the 1-second more delay on the PPCs. These buffs did not cause the current meta; you all seem to be forgetting that PPCs were entirely worthless weapons before the buff. The buff made them worthwhile. If you put them back like that, they would go back to being worthless.

.... and you know what that means? Welcome back to Gauss fest '13.

No more nerf stuff. We need buffs. A lot of buffs.

I would say we do need better heat penalties and variable accuracy depending upon the situation.

[One Medic Army]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Do you know how I realize this is not what would happen with absolute certainty?

The recent LRM apocalypse when the splash was going into the CT. While overpowered, we were seeing a LOT of 'mechs emerge before they aborted it - this included brawlers going after missile boats, a FEW snipers to specifically to support them while they pushed in, etc. Sure our only real brawling options were ACs, Lasers, and Streaks..

... but even with "really badly" OP LRMs and nothing else, we started to see designs that were neither sniper or missile boater in both pugs and 8-man. Had they left that alone for another week, I don't even know if LRMs would be that big a threat anymore, even WITH the bugs, but it sure did inspire a lot of changes to the balance ecosystem.

You make good points, but you forget the other thing which was recently (re)fixed about LRMs, the fact cover wasn't blocking them.
This is the factor that stopped the poptarts and peek-snipers. The fact that they couldn't just pop back into cover and ignore the missiles.
Unless we want that firing arc to come back (and I for one do not, despite my dislike for the snipe meta) Snipers will do just fine shooting any LRM boat which spots for himself, and his spotter if he doesn't.

So no, LRM buffs will not do much to curb the current snipe meta. Back when LRMs were stronger in late Closed Beta and early Open Beta snipers were used to counter LRM boats.


People need to stop asking for LRM/SRM buffs like they're some magic bullet that will fix all imbalances inherent in other weapons, they won't.
Missiles need to be buffed, but they need to be buffed because they suck, not because it will stop PPC sniping or cure cancer or w/e people are claiming.

Edited by One Medic Army, 30 May 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

PPC buffs did not cause our current situation. Missile nerfs did, helped by lackluster ballistics and inferior pulse lasers.

How are Ballistics lackluster? Cons, tonnage and ammo against Pros kill quicker than their Energy counterparts. Personally I think the only Ballistics hurting right now are:
- MG only on RoF compared to SL/SPL.
- AC/2 for heat generation.

Pulse Lasers only have 1 with problems, SPL.

To see why I believe this, here are stats from recent weapon tests I did.

[Livewyr]

I don't understand what is so hard for people to understand about balancing a weapon against it's usage.

If your weapon has all positives, and no drawbacks.. there is a SERIOUS problem there.

-------------
Also, knock it off with the "Don't nerf anything, just buff the other things" garbage- that logic just results in a more powerful alpha strike meta. If you want to have a point to having armor at all, start tweaking things in the interest of not coring a mech within 4 seconds...

[Asmudius Heng]

Livewyr, on 30 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I don't understand what is so hard for people to understand about balancing a weapon against it's usage.

If your weapon has all positives, and no drawbacks.. there is a SERIOUS problem there.

-------------
Also, knock it off with the "Don't nerf anything, just buff the other things" garbage- that logic just results in a more powerful alpha strike meta. If you want to have a point to having armor at all, start tweaking things in the interest of not coring a mech within 4 seconds...

The entire game should be about trade offs. Positives and negatives and making meaningful choices. This applies to level 2 tech, to every weapon, to every mech.

Hell i would like to see efficiencies and modules have some sort of trade off for each advantage - obviously the positive can be greater than the negative, but something to offset each positive in some small way so you have to think on each item its worth for your role.

There is not enough meaningful choices imo

[Victor Morson]

Merchant, on 30 May 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

How are Ballistics lackluster? Cons, tonnage and ammo against Pros kill quicker than their Energy counterparts. Personally I think the only Ballistics hurting right now are:
- MG only on RoF compared to SL/SPL.
- AC/2 for heat generation.

Pulse Lasers only have 1 with problems, SPL.

To see why I believe this, here are stats from recent weapon tests I did.

First off, you used the Testing Grounds. This automatically renders anything you tested wrong. The Testing Grounds are currently broken and do not reflect in-game damage at all right now. I'm serious; feel free to search the issue. They are flat out ludicrously and entirely inaccurate.

As to my beliefs for ballistics, only the Gauss Rifle and UAC have been viable, primarily the Gauss. AC/5 might be better now, and I will admit I haven't given it a fair shake yet. That said all the heavy ACs are inferior; AC/10, LBX/10 and AC/20. Yes, even AC/20 needs a buff, if not as sharply as the AC/10 or LBX/10 by comparison. Without them, ballistics are a fire support weapon, not a brawling weapon.

For pulse lasers? They are simply not justifying their worth over standard lasers. A small tuning to discharge time would make them exceptional without further stat changes IMO.

Finally, there are a lot of stats that you are not taking into account with your findings. For example my mention of improving discharge times; I could literally make pulse lasers go from totally worthless to incredibly awesome by tuning that number within a 1 second range; these are very hard to demonstrate when firing at a dummy where discharge-spread does not happen.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 May 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Livewyr, on 30 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I don't understand what is so hard for people to understand about balancing a weapon against it's usage.

If your weapon has all positives, and no drawbacks.. there is a SERIOUS problem there.

-------------
Also, knock it off with the "Don't nerf anything, just buff the other things" garbage- that logic just results in a more powerful alpha strike meta. If you want to have a point to having armor at all, start tweaking things in the interest of not coring a mech within 4 seconds...

You can currently survive multiple hits from a PPC and Gauss, so no, I am not knocking that off. Perhaps you'd prefer every gun be inferior and fights to take an exceptionally long time up close, but I and many others are happy with the previous speed & pacing of fights.

Improving the damage to SRMs and ACs, for example, will not "force bigger alphas", it means more 'mechs might be inclined to run brawler builds, where often boating is not even an option. Buffing LRMs force people to think about moving out, and what they do.

Every weapon already has drawbacks. PPCs have a minimum range and ER PPCs are exceptionally hot. They're fine. Gauss weighs a huge amount and eats massive crit space, while making your 'mech more fragile.. it's fine. Thus, they all have drawbacks and advantages and thus are fine.

What is not fine is the lack of weapons that are comparable to them.

If you'd like an overall reduction in DPS, really, you should really be going at that in an entirely different thread.