13 replies to this topic

[Terror Teddy]

Might be a long post, not sure.

Right now we have people taking a LOT of fat mechs with the fattest engine due to a lot of the metagame.

After all, with larger engine you get:
-Increased Torso Tilt/Twist and arm movement speed
-More internal heatsinks
-More speed

To me, the gyro speed bonus feels wrong because it cheapens the specific CHASSIS as their own bonuses are overshadowed when another mech can just take an engine and reach the same ability - or more importantly, having assault mech with the nimbleness of a medium or heavy (or heavy over a medium) you get the point.

When I say sniper I'm mostly focusing on the very prominent X4-X6 LL or X4 ERPPC builds but also some of the combinations where there are no DEFENSIVE weapons whatsoever.

Many of the builds we see just feels bloody WRONG since no mechcommander would ever FIELD such onetrick ponies on a battlefield - perhaps one or two but most mechs are built to be SOMEWHAT versatile unless extremely limited weapon loadout is available.

Short ranged weapons have a huge drawback - RANGE, as their weapons are primarely about being CLOSE.

Heavier weapons like the ERPPC and ERLL or similar dont have any drawback when used up close apart from cycle time.

So what are my thoughts and ideas then?

How about letting the weapon WEIGHT and SIZE affect torso twist/speed of the chassis?

This also affects smaller mechs with oversized weapons like the 35 tonne Raven with an AC/20 as it would normally not be DESIGNED around such a weapon. Yes, the Hollander would have a drawback due to mounting a huge-*** gun too but perhaps have better gyros from start.

-Having medium lasers in the arms make them nimbler than a large laser.
-AC/2 instead of GAUSS makes the torso less slow.
etc...

Assault mechs that ONLY load up on heavy weapons would find their agility hampered even with a maximum engine.

My reasoning here is that it would/might make people thinking about taking defensive weapons alongside 1-2 main guns, instead of 6 "main guns".

So if we have a Gauss tooting Misery it MIGHT wanna keep the X4 ML instead of getting 3 LPL in order to actually be ABLE to brawl when **** hits the fan.

I DO have a small concern in regards to lighter ballistic weapons like the AC/2 or AC/5 but as I said, this is about working out an idea - one that thinks about MORE than just a more complex heat table (something I want TOO).

So pick up the guns you want but realize that you will become less agile - after all, no Sniper tries to have a gunfight in an enclosed room with his Barret - he would draw his sidearm (in reality that is, we all know how they behave in battlefield...)

Edited by Terror Teddy, 01 June 2013 - 03:12 AM.

[FrostCollar]

Is it surprising that I'm totally for this?

[Thaar]

Very well thought! I support this.

[Pupecki]

good idea, you should add a poll

[Terror Teddy]

Pupecki, on 31 May 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

good idea, you should add a poll

Added poll

[krolmir]

The idea is novel but it will nerf brawling weapons like the AC/20, which has a max range of 270m, or AC/10s which are very
heavy for their output and range?

[Terror Teddy]

krolmir, on 01 June 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

The idea is novel but it will nerf brawling weapons like the AC/20, which has a max range of 270m, or AC/10s which are very
heavy for their output and range?

Yes, ballistics are a concern.

Perhaps depending on system?

Ballistics: Criticals+Heat
Energy: Heat+Weight
Missiles: Weight+Criticals

Some kind of mix could be used to balance them out.

But anyone with an AC/20 will suffer regardless since its the biggest gun you can find in the game and if it takes up 1/3 of your torso and about 1/5 of your total weight you will have an agility problem.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 01 June 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Pater Mors]

I don't agree. I don't think that mounting weapons on a chassis designed to hold said weapons should come with penalties. I think that the penalties should come in different forms.

A 6 PPC Stalker should require an incredible amount of skill to pilot properly because of the amount of heat generated per shot and such a build already has a ton of drawbacks. I think two things are needed to fix the problems:

1) Proper implementation of heat penalties.
2) Removal of pinpoint convergence in favour of something else. It doesn't have to be RNG but the reality is that every time you fire a weapon variables change and always having the projectiles hit exactly where you aim feels like an arcade game.

I don't like the idea that my builds become somewhat limited by an arbitrary penalty depending on what size weapons I decide to mount, especially on a chassis designed to hold and wield 100 tons of weaponry.

[ExtremeA79]

I don't think this is well thought out. Sure it is a somewhat good idea, but it is entirely non canon and would affect brawling.
A better idea that I have seen in the past (a amazing idea actually) that reduces these one trick ponies to a canonical amount and make the game canon is to not only have hardpoint and critical restrictions, but hardpoint size restrictions as well.
Lets talk about the Jenners, for a example, specifically the K and the D. The only difference between the 2 is (besides the price) is one has only 1 missile hardpoint but comes with FF, while the other has 2 missile hardpoints but comes with no FF. If a hardpoint size restriction system was implemented, the devs could make the JR7-D have 2 one critical size missile hardpoints. While still having the same missile hardpoints, the JR7-D cannot put a SRM-6 because it is 2 criticals and cannot fit in a 1 size missile hardpoint. The JR7-K, however, could have a 2 critical sized missile hardpoint, allowing it to put a SRM-6 in. This (in this case for jenners) would make the 2 variants different, and actually making the K worthful. (Why buy a K when you can buy something else that is cheaper with 2 missile hardpoints?)
As for the entire game, only mechs that were meant to boat (Jaggermechs, Awesomes) would boat, while other mechs cannot. People then would start making more varied loadouts, more balanced out and well rounded. (canon)
This would also help distinguish the BattleMechs from the Omni mechs when the Clans come. Omnimechs are mechs that were meant to be optimized for each mission, to be specialized.

Just my 2 cents.

[Terror Teddy]

Darren Tyler, on 01 June 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

I don't think this is well thought out. Sure it is a somewhat good idea, but it is entirely non canon and would affect brawling.

Just my 2 cents.

well, there is nothing in Canon about a higher engine rating affecting your ability to hit your enemy (faster twist and tilt depending on engine rating either.

[Aurrous]

I forgot was the hard point system supposed to prevent 6 ppc builds, or stop you from using so many MG that they might be useful?

Sorry wrong post..

Ohh yeah..

Gyros govern the mech's ability to move, and keep moving.. The higher the engine rating the higher the movement abilities..
Gyro is based on engine rating, engine rating is based on mech's weight, Mechs weight can never exceed X,
So gyro will always cover a Max weight of X for that amount of movement.. Soo no matter how many of what you put on it, it can never exceed X and the Gryo will always cover the speed to max weight of X..

Also take note that "sniper Mechs" were part of the original game..
PTN-9R, VDN-1R, JM6-S, and ZEU-6S, AWS-8Q, and BNC-3E were listed as snipers..

As were Brawlers such as the
ENF-4R, DRG-1N,

But none of those mech represent the problems caused by the ability to abuse the heat cycles.

Most of which is there is no Gunnery Skill to modify, and there is No piloting skill to modify, and there are
no Terran modifiers, movement modifiers, and there are no heat scale modifiers which affects the movement and accuracy.. Sooo

The solution to "boating" is in the MANY MANY built in Checks and balances that were in the table top that are not in this game.. Such as Movement makes heat, weapons make heat, to much heat causes things to go boom, the pilot to wish he didn't pull the trigger one more time (unconsciousness), ammo blowing up, the mech to shut down leading to AIMED SHOTS on Them (with improved odds of them dying.) and the engine going boom.. You also had heating affecting the weapons accuracy, and terrain modifiers, movement modifiers, and a few other modifiers that said.. 5 ppc snipers is a REALLY REALY bad idea..


There for weapons weight have no factor in the equation..

Edited by Aurrous, 02 June 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

Terror Teddy, on 02 June 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

well, there is nothing in Canon about a higher engine rating affecting your ability to hit your enemy (faster twist and tilt depending on engine rating either.

"[color=#000000]In a BattleMech, the fusion engine rests in the center torso. It cannot be relocated elsewhere in the BattleMech, though certain types of engine may intrude into the side torso bays as well. The weight of the engine is proportionate to the mass of the vehicle and its desired maximum speed. Hence a light Mech can use the same engine as an assault Mech, but move much faster."[/color]
[color=#000000]From Sarma. This shows that engines affecting speed and other things in mechs are canon. I am not entirely sure about the torso twisting, but it has its roots in canon and lore.[/color]
[color=#000000]This idea is entirely non canon.[/color]

[Terror Teddy]

Darren Tyler, on 02 June 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

[color=#000000]From Sarma. This shows that engines affecting speed and other things in mechs are canon. I am not entirely sure about the torso twisting, but it has its roots in canon and lore.[/color]
[color=#000000]This idea is entirely non canon.[/color]

Yes, higher engine speed gives you a FASTER mech - but what we essentially get in MWO is also the ability to "HIT" our enemy easier as torso twist and arm movement become faster as they are ALSO improved in MWO - something that never existed in the TT game.

This might be non-canon but it would be a good step along the way to curb excessive boating of heavy weapons and give a good reason for balanced builds and using defensive weapons.

[Aurrous]

Terror Teddy, on 02 June 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Yes, higher engine speed gives you a FASTER mech - but what we essentially get in MWO is also the ability to "HIT" our enemy easier as torso twist and arm movement become faster as they are ALSO improved in MWO - something that never existed in the TT game.

This might be non-canon but it would be a good step along the way to curb excessive boating of heavy weapons and give a good reason for balanced builds and using defensive weapons.

The mechs movements are governed by its gryo, the faster the mech is the bigger the gryo it needs to correct its speed, and change its momentum, Turning, bending, Twisting, Ect. Jumping over and Dropping A hatchet down on another mech.. or punching/kicking someone in the face..

The Gyro housing serves two functions, one is balance and one is force generating.. the bigger the gyro, the bigger the ammount of force it can create, the housing and be manipulated to create both angular and linear force.. On the topic of linear force, the gryo can be used to force the mech to spin faster, as it uses the inertia of the gryo to increase its turning speed. Look up gryos, Battlemech Technology, Gyro housing, ect.

This is all part of the TT rules.. When you made a mech you had to figure out the mass of the gyro based off of the size of the Engine.. the size of the Engine was based off the weight of the mech per its movement abilities.. The faster, and heavier it was the bigger Gryo needed to keep it moving correctly..

The Gyros were later upgraded to Compact and Heavy, XL gryos.. A compact gyro weighed more, but took up less center torso weight, and a Heavy duty Gyro, which weighed more, but could take more damage before failing. and XL version that took up more space but weighed less..