41 replies to this topic

[martian]

Koniving, on 01 December 2019 - 02:19 PM, said:

And the zombie is again risen...

Yes, Thundebolt has often shown zombie-like qualities in my games.

[Nesutizale]

You mean the "I shot it several times in the CT and rolled endless crits and its still walking !!!" kind of behavior?

[martian]

No, because such beavior is not easy to get in 3025 games.

It was more like:

• It lost both arms and a lot of armor it was still able to kill a similarly damaged Marauder, i.e. 'Mech ten tons heavier
  
• It survived such damage that would destroy heavier 'Mechs such as Warhammer
  
• It survived rolling for crits that would destroy Crusader or Marauder or other 'Mechs (in situations when rolling for crits is assured death sentence since the only rollable item is highly explosive ammo)
  
• Even without ammo it stayed a credible threat to enemy 'Mechs when enemy 'Mechs were reduced to (almost) harmless paperweighs because they ran out of ammo
  
• Even with damaged engine it still stayed dangerous when many 3025 'Mechs with default ten heat sinks were hopelessly crippled by heat

I appreciate all these things on my T-bolt.

[Nesutizale]

Yep that is pretty much my experiance too. Thunderbolds where equaly loved and hated by our group. Nothing better as a game master to tell your group of uprising mercs that the enemy fields a T-Bold

I remember a game where they desperatly tried to shoot the legs of the T-Bold to salvage it. Lost a lot of armor and weapons just to find out they have forgoten that mech salvage wasn't part of the contract....that look on their faces when I told them afterwards. Well thats what you get when your GM tells you that fighting the T-Bold that way wasn't the best idea.

[martian]

I am glad that the 3050 Thunderbolt upgrade was a sensible one: switch to double heat sinks, C.A.S.E. to protect the 'Mech against ammo crits and ER technology for its Large laser. Streak technology was not entirely necessary, but I can live with that.

They kept what worked and it was enough. Many 3050 upgrades were much worse.

TDR-7M is a 'Mech that you can use from 3050 well to 3150.

[Rorik Thrumsalr]

I've never had much luck with the T-Bolt. First time I took one out I took an AC-5 TAC right to the CT ammo bin, first round. That being said, on paper it's a very good mech IMHO.

That said, I've never liked the crusader. The unseen art may be the fuggliest heavy mech ever drawn. Horrible aesthetics, limited ammo and it's potentially lethal location and poor heat dissipation cement this one in my 3025-3055 "worst ever" list next to the Dart and Hoplite.

[martian]

Rorik Thrumsalr, on 02 December 2019 - 10:46 PM, said:

I've never had much luck with the T-Bolt. First time I took one out I took an AC-5 TAC right to the CT ammo bin, first round. That being said, on paper it's a very good mech IMHO.

Yeah, such moments happen sometimes and I think that every BattleTech player has had his share of such crit rolls.

Rorik Thrumsalr, on 02 December 2019 - 10:46 PM, said:

That said, I've never liked the crusader. The unseen art may be the fuggliest heavy mech ever drawn. Horrible aesthetics, limited ammo and it's potentially lethal location and poor heat dissipation cement this one in my 3025-3055 "worst ever" list next to the Dart and Hoplite.

The sad fact is that that when people want to praise the Crusader, they usually say "it is almost good as the Thunderbolt" or "it is a good lance member" or so. But since you can deploy the real Thunderbolt for the same BV, there is no big reason to take the Crusader unless you specifically want one.

Even the Royal Crusader still sucks while the Royal Thunderbolt shines.

[Nesutizale]

Oh yes the damned lucky crit roles.

As for the worst mechs. I have a mech that I like and hate and that is the Shadow Hawk. I find it a wonderfull training mech for new players as can't overheat IIRC, it has a bit of every weapon type and range so players get easly familiar with the weapons table and it can also jump a little so that new players get a rough idea on how to use jumpjets.

On the other hand that exact mix makes it a jack of all trades that dosn't realy shine in any way. The SHD-5M later one was more interesting but still a weird mix of weapons.

[martian]

Nesutizale, on 03 December 2019 - 02:25 AM, said:

On the other hand that exact mix makes it a jack of all trades that dosn't realy shine in any way. The SHD-5M later one was more interesting but still a weird mix of weapons.

The problem with the Shadow Hawk is that it uses AC-5 as its primary weapon. And because the AC-5 is a very inferior weapon, the entire 'Mech turns out as a mediocre platform. Replacing AC-5 with laser or PPC would cure the Shadow Hawk, but the only canon variant (SHD-2K) is just a bad Griffin copycat.

Nesutizale, on 03 December 2019 - 02:25 AM, said:

On the other hand that exact mix makes it a jack of all trades that dosn't realy shine in any way. The SHD-5M later one was more interesting but still a weird mix of weapons.

SHD-5M Shadow Hawk is exactly the same case as CRD-5M Crusader. Even after upgrade SHD-5M is still a mediocre design. I take GRF-3M Griffin when I can or WVR-7M Wolverine when I can afford it.

Edited by martian, 04 December 2019 - 12:35 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

martian, on 03 December 2019 - 06:17 AM, said:

The problem with the Shadow Hawk is that it uses AC-5 as its primary weapon. And because the AC-5 is a very inferior weapon, the entire 'Mech turns out as a mediocre platform. Replacing AC-5 with laser or PPC would cure the Shadow Hawk, but the only canon variant (SHD-2K) is just a bad Griffin copycat.

yeah ACs in general are poor primary weapons (unless you run a twenty) even the ten is for the most part not the optimum. with 10 free heatsinks I get 3 additional SHS and 2 Large Laser for the price of a AC10.

Discussion over in the official forums get quite heated when people discussed about improving the ACs - but a good AC alone would not make the SHS better -. its still has the bad SRM2... (one of those weapons that should be replaced by a MLAS and a single SHS on every Mech.

[martian]

Karl Streiger, on 04 December 2019 - 12:09 AM, said:

yeah ACs in general are poor primary weapons (unless you run a twenty) even the ten is for the most part not the optimum. with 10 free heatsinks I get 3 additional SHS and 2 Large Laser for the price of a AC10.

Discussion over in the official forums get quite heated when people discussed about improving the ACs - but a good AC alone would not make the SHS better -. its still has the bad SRM2... (one of those weapons that should be replaced by a MLAS and a single SHS on every Mech.

If we are talking about AC-5s, should I decide between WVR-6R Wolverine and SHD-2H Shadow Hawk (two similar 3025 'Mechs), I will gladly take the Wolverine. Both 'Mechs have the same gun, but the Wolverine can brawl much better.

[Karl Streiger]

martian, on 04 December 2019 - 12:44 AM, said:

If we are talking about AC-5s, should I decide between WVR-6R Wolverine and SHD-2H Shadow Hawk (two similar 3025 'Mechs), I will gladly take the Wolverine. Both 'Mechs have the same gun, but the Wolverine can brawl much better.

Sure, me too. The SRM6 is a better weapon and the additional jump jets help as well.

[martian]

It is funny.

When you read Decision at Thunder Rift, you think that the Shadow Hawk is actually a pretty strong 'Mech. I mean, Grayson Carlyle firing his Shadow Hawk's powerful autocannon, blasting with his laser left and right, punching other 'Mechs, etc. Surely you remember all that. You would think that the Shadow Hawk is a great 'Mech.

And then, such disappointment when you deploy the Shadow Hawk in a BattleTech game and you see how mediocre that 'Mech really is.

[Nesutizale]

Yes I remeber that feeling.
Still good training mech in my book. Cadets don't kill each other to fast

[C E Dwyer]

Cruusaderrrrr

[martian]

C E Dwyer, on 04 December 2019 - 03:27 PM, said:

Cruusaderrrrr

Yes, I would say that the majority of Crusaders are walking errors.

Perhaps the only Crusader that I would take is CRD-7W. It is a Reseen model built originally for the Word of Blake Militia a now for the Free Worlds League Military. That 'Mech has as much long-range firepower as any common Crusader while having much meaner short-range punch. You can take all kinds of ammo that you could possibly need in a game, be it standard LRM and SRM ammo, Infernos, Smoke ammo - you name it.

Just do not expect it to survive until the end of the game ...

[Karl Streiger]

Nesutizale, on 04 December 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

Yes I remeber that feeling.
Still good training mech in my book. Cadets don't kill each other to fast

Until that one guy kicked the head from the other.... like the Banshee the SHD excels in close range combat

[martian]

Nesutizale, on 04 December 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

Yes I remeber that feeling.
Still good training mech in my book. Cadets don't kill each other to fast

It is ironic that the Chameleon has been described as the most common training 'Mech, but no MechWarrior game has ever had it.

Not even MWO.

[Nesutizale]

True, forgot about that mech completly.

[martian]

Nesutizale, on 06 December 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

True, forgot about that mech completly.

The Chameleon is a 'Mech that is very common in theory, but you only rarely can see one on the tabletop.

I would say that you can probably see it the most often in 3025 games with other Introtech machines, if players are bored with all those Griffins, Wolverines, Shadow Hawks and Trebuchets.