62 replies to this topic

[Dude42]

If they would just disallow the firing of weapons while the mech was in the air. That would fix poptarting and put jumpjets back where they're supposed to be. Maneuverability enhancement upgrades. Not saying they shouldn't also fix instant convergence, nerf PPC projectile speed, and have stiffer heat penalties.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

scJazz, on 01 June 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Well since there is currently no shake at all and shake is being implemented because of poptarting it would be a gigantic stretch to imagine that it wouldn't noticeably effect poptarting. This makes sense right?

Did you see the hack job they did with LRM's? Why would you expect this to work any better?

Dude42, on 01 June 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

If they would just disallow the firing of weapons while the mech was in the air. That would fix poptarting and put jumpjets back where they're supposed to be. Maneuverability enhancement upgrades. Not saying they shouldn't also fix instant convergence, nerf PPC projectile speed, and have stiffer heat penalties.

I feel like this may be a good way to go.

[One Medic Army]

Dude42, on 01 June 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

If they would just disallow the firing of weapons while the mech was in the air. That would fix poptarting and put jumpjets back where they're supposed to be. Maneuverability enhancement upgrades. Not saying they shouldn't also fix instant convergence, nerf PPC projectile speed, and have stiffer heat penalties.

My Jenner would be made very sad by this change.
Pretty much the only way to get a decent laser strike on the front of an assault/heavy mech is to run past them from behind, tap the jets, and face them while gliding away.
Heading straight towards a heavy/assault is asking to die, and with 1sec beam duration running past them spreads the damage out hugely, not to mention most decent players will still hit you.

[Dude42]

One Medic Army, on 01 June 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

My Jenner would be made very sad by this change.
Pretty much the only way to get a decent laser strike on the front of an assault/heavy mech is to run past them from behind, tap the jets, and face them while gliding away.
Heading straight towards a heavy/assault is asking to die, and with 1sec beam duration running past them spreads the damage out hugely, not to mention most decent players will still hit you.

How do you think lights without jumpjets feel?

[Tarl Cabot]

The cheese is that there are several systems that are not in play to counter the weapon usage, be it the highlander or any other mech, be it a jumper or not. Mechs with jump jets have been one of my favorite mechs since MPBT EGA/Solaris. Besides jenners/spiders/javelins I could make a grasshopper dance like there was no tomorrow, as it made it more difficult to hit me (Solaris had 1-3 "hills" and sometimes a ridge). And that Gh was only equipped with LRM 5, Large Laser and 4 medium lasers.... Poor cats and marauders...

But really, a moving heat scale (cap increases as HS numbers increase), no negative effects as the heat increases other than shutdown (or damage w/override), no negative effects from engine crits (+5 then +10 heat increase), cross hairs in zoom and real lack of convergence activity/cone of fire.

With JJ jitters, lights will be least affected since 99% do not fire from range but are generally up close as it is.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 01 June 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Aim64C]

Chavette, on 01 June 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

... And the Lord saith: "Cry more forth getting shot in thy face, for you lack thy intelligence to look for cover."

To some degree, I agree with you.

However... in order to, you know, use your weapons, you have to actually expose yourself to fire from the enemy. You can't spend too long sitting behind cover. You have to be able to seize the initiative at some point. If you're not luring the enemy in for a trap, then spending all day behind cover simply means that you'll be picked off one by one by the enemy that has gained command of the field.

And when you expose yourself to fire - unless you're running like a bat out of hell in a Jenner - you're going to find 4+ppcs deposited into a single point on your torso. A gauss round or two might connect elsewhere (if you're lucky - they'll just remove your arm).

It's getting pretty bad - to the point where people are using completely silly armor builds to try and counter the problem. I've run into several brawlers in my Jenner that have virtually no armor on their rear torso. I mean I just rake my lasers across them and I'm into their internals.

Why?

Because, most of the time, they are up against heavies and assaults that cannot capitalize on exposed flanks - yet they can also put stupid amounts of pinpoint damage onto one's armor. It's become turrett battles. Exactly what PGI said they were trying to move Mech Warrior away from.

[B0oN]

Jake Hendricks, on 01 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

I have to say jumping is easier for shooting than running, don't know how many times I've been lining up a shot only to step on pebble knocking my aim out

Not able to recompensate quick enough ?
Back to UT then, Sir

[NRP]

I find it amusing that JJ equipped Heavies and Assaults get all the hate, yet JJ Jenners, Trebs, and BJs are just fine.

[Deathlike]

NRP, on 01 June 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

I find it amusing that JJ equipped Heavies and Assaults get all the hate, yet JJ Jenners, Trebs, and BJs are just fine.

It is probably because they can't boat the weapons that the Stalker and Atlas can routinely enjoy.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Deathlike, on 01 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

It is probably because they can't boat the weapons that the Stalker and Atlas can routinely enjoy.

What is your point? Stalker and Atlai has no jumpjets.

Treb poptarts were a pain in the *** also. Need BV or tonnage limits to make them a pain again.

[stjobe]

Chemie, on 01 June 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

such that "things are about where we want them" (per Paul)

I don't think he's ever said anything but that line after any of the balance passes or introduction of new, overpowered or nullifying items. It's his standard line.

NRP, on 01 June 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

I find it amusing that JJ equipped Heavies and Assaults get all the hate, yet JJ Jenners, Trebs, and BJs are just fine.

Hey! What about my poptart SDR-5D? It's got lots of jump jets and not quite that many ERPPCs. Well to tell the truth it has just the one. And that's its only weapon. But never you mind, it's a poptart I tell you! Pop. Tart!

[LordBraxton]

the PPCs are the problem even more than the jump jets

mt CTF-1X with 4 PPCs does just as well as my 3D

the 3D has the jump jets

but the 1X goes 86.6

anything with a 35-60 point long range alpha is devastating

with PPCs you can have huge alphas for really low tonnages

PPCs seem to do 8 damage at 800 meters from my experience, no need for high heat ERs

[mack sabbath]

Edustaja, on 01 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Highlander really is a bit much.
3D cataphracts at least have a serious drawback in its comparable fragility.

and low hanging fruit. (weapons)

Aim64C, on 01 June 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

To some degree, I agree with you.

However... in order to, you know, use your weapons, you have to actually expose yourself to fire from the enemy. You can't spend too long sitting behind cover. You have to be able to seize the initiative at some point. If you're not luring the enemy in for a trap, then spending all day behind cover simply means that you'll be picked off one by one by the enemy that has gained command of the field.

And when you expose yourself to fire - unless you're running like a bat out of hell in a Jenner - you're going to find 4+ppcs deposited into a single point on your torso. A gauss round or two might connect elsewhere (if you're lucky - they'll just remove your arm).

It's getting pretty bad - to the point where people are using completely silly armor builds to try and counter the problem. I've run into several brawlers in my Jenner that have virtually no armor on their rear torso. I mean I just rake my lasers across them and I'm into their internals.

Why?

Because, most of the time, they are up against heavies and assaults that cannot capitalize on exposed flanks - yet they can also put stupid amounts of pinpoint damage onto one's armor. It's become turrett battles. Exactly what PGI said they were trying to move Mech Warrior away from.

Very well said.

[Sephlock]

The solution to this is to make every other weapon system better. Especially Flamers, MGs, SRMs, Slas, SPLAS, MPLAS, AC/5s, AC/10s....

[Aim64C]

IV Amen, on 01 June 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

What is your point? Stalker and Atlai has no jumpjets.

Treb poptarts were a pain in the *** also. Need BV or tonnage limits to make them a pain again.

That's the thing. "Poptarting" was a harassing game. So you take a PPC or two to the torso. Just dangerous enough to cause you to have to switch up your plans. You can't ignore the jumper - but you can't really afford to chase him down over it, either, as that's the game he wants you to play.

A highlander jumps up with 3 PPCs and a gauss rifle - and it's a different story. That's some serious firepower being put on you.

There's literally no difference between using "poptarting" and standing still.... except for the fact that you can jump, fire, and drop behind cover (as if you were standing still) while your enemy has a moving target that has assault-class armor on it.

There should be an accuracy penalty that goes along with such tactics. There should be a reason why you would want to walk out in front of your enemy to get in a shot rather than jump-jet.

Sure - it's not going to keep people from doing it - but it wouldn't be so bad that the only way people see to counter it is to focus fire with 18 PPCs from their team.

The whole thing has gotten stupid.

[Corvus Antaka]

not for much longer.

I can't wait for the screams of anguish.

[Sephlock]

[FupDup]

Sephlock, on 01 June 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Why do you keep liking your own posts?

[Lukoi Banacek]

FupDup, on 01 June 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why do you keep liking your own posts?

prolly self esteem issues

(I kid)

[Koniving]

The problem with the shake concept is that even during the Earthquake simulator, I found myself able to hit my target with every single shot I fired.

What's a tiny shake going to do? Zilch. There should be a completely different 'convergence issue' associated with jump sniping. But then that just means grounded snipers and more 6 PPC stalkers. There needs to be some other measure to this that allows them to play their jump sniping game but without the pin-point accuracy it has.

Edited by Koniving, 01 June 2013 - 06:24 PM.