194 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

LonestarrSB, on 02 June 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

LRM's are fine. They do decent dmg with little actual effort required. You went 9/10 games doing over 300 damage by standing at probably near max range with no threat to yourself a lot of the time and did plenty of damage.

What you also fail hard at realizing is you also won 8 of those 10 matches. Are you trying to make it so just because you boated easy mode weapons you should be doing 800 damage a game? You did PLENTY of damage and that is without Tag or Artemis!

LRM's are nearly balanced to where they need to be. How can you fail to see that just because you aren't topping the end game stats at the end by pointing for a couple seconds and clicking once.

-Edit-
Try using LRM's like they are used best...to soften up a target for when you get close with real weapons. Stop being a coward in the back of the map complaining you can't wipe out the team with just a few clicks.

Guess someone isn't reading the thread, and got owned by LRM's during one of their bugged states. The butt hurtedness is amazing.

[Skyfaller]

Ningyo, on 02 June 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Saying that Tag is a counter for ECM shows you have probably never played with LRMs.

Now In general I do believe TAG is worth the 1ton/ 1 slot it does help, but saying it nullifies ECM is a total joke.

TAG does nullify ECM past 200m. ECM atlai die very, very quickly to an LRM boat with TAG..because out to 800m they get tagged, their ECM shield dropped and LRM's slam into their face.

Aim64C, on 02 June 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Yeah - back when they did 1.8 points of damage.

You have to be dealing with a team devoid of neurons to get that kind of score in the current LRM loadouts.

No, this is now. The team is brawling the enemy mechs and I shoot into them. The high damage number comes from the fact that at under 600m range the LRMs do all strike (artemis LOS+ TAG effect) the target and strikes it all over the armor..front and rear as they play grabass with each other.

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So, what is your team doing while you're getting all of this damage? At 60 rounds per salvo, you're looking at 12 good shots per match to get the kind of damage you're talking about. That's a lot of golden opportunities that are hard to come by.

Golden opportunities? Inside 600m range and target is not in cover...when you're behind your entire team.. 'golden' opportunities are plentiful. Using LRMs in this manner is no different than dual AC20s or six PPC stalker driving: you wait for the shot and you only take the shot you think has a damn good chance of hitting.

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You'll see there are plenty of times in there where I sink 40 missile salvos into mechs that... well... barely felt it. There was one particular match on Frozen City where I'm sinking salvo after salvo into Atlasses... only to have them just kind of brush it off like it was a bad fart. Sure - I wasn't always in the best position... but it's hardly an isolated incident. There's a particular Jager on Caustic (and later, a cataphract) that I was visibly sinking shots into... but I'm just scraping the paint off of their armor.

This is why you need artemis and LOS. (you do know artemis effect does not kick in unless you have LOS right?). If you fire LRMs without artemis their damage is diluted across the entire mech...one arm to the other. Artemis packs the damage near the CT so the splash damage from the LR/RT hits bleeds into CT.

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You may disagree with my interpretation - but the fact remains that "getting kills," "doing damage," and "being effective" are three different things in this game.

I agree they are different things. Getting kills is chance based unless you drop the target solo. Doing damage can be ineffective if the damage does not hurt the target (aka artemis+tag lrm vs lrm with no artemis and no tag). Being effective as an LRM boat comes from firing at what your team is fighting not firing LRMs at whatever target you manage to lock.

Volthorne, on 02 June 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

And why should I be forced to take an extra 3+ tonnes of equipment to make ONE weapon system work? Let me put this in perspective: if you HAD to take an extra ballistic weapon (which weighed one ton and took up one crit - and it NEEDS to go in the same section as the weapon) to make your AC/20 or Gauss remotely effective, would that be fair?

Actually it is fair and you do. You bring the example of ballistics. Ok, think on this: if you put no DHS and no extra dual heatsinks... how effective is your ballistic mech? If you did not train pinpoint skill how effective would your fire be?. Artemis adds only 1 ton and 1 slot per equipped missile weapon... artemis is the ONLY extra thing that is REQUIRED to make LRMs shine. TAG and BAP only help counter ECM and adds range+locking time.they dont affect damage...which is the whole point of this whinepost.

I used to drive a quad-LRM20 catapult A1 with almost 2000 missiles for fun. It used to run at 30kph and had zero armor. Before the LRM changes of course. Today I run my stalker 5s as lrm boat. When I compare their performance I say the Stalker is just a lil bit worse off damage wise and effectiveness wise than my old catapult. I do miss the jumpjets though.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Skyfaller, on 02 June 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

TAG does nullify ECM past 200m. ECM atlai die very, very quickly to an LRM boat with TAG..because out to 800m they get tagged, their ECM shield dropped and LRM's slam into their face.



No, this is now. The team is brawling the enemy mechs and I shoot into them. The high damage number comes from the fact that at under 600m range the LRMs do all strike (artemis LOS+ TAG effect) the target and strikes it all over the armor..front and rear as they play grabass with each other.



Golden opportunities? Inside 600m range and target is not in cover...when you're behind your entire team.. 'golden' opportunities are plentiful. Using LRMs in this manner is no different than dual AC20s or six PPC stalker driving: you wait for the shot and you only take the shot you think has a damn good chance of hitting.


This is why you need artemis and LOS. (you do know artemis effect does not kick in unless you have LOS right?). If you fire LRMs without artemis their damage is diluted across the entire mech...one arm to the other. Artemis packs the damage near the CT so the splash damage from the LR/RT hits bleeds into CT.



I agree they are different things. Getting kills is chance based unless you drop the target solo. Doing damage can be ineffective if the damage does not hurt the target (aka artemis+tag lrm vs lrm with no artemis and no tag). Being effective as an LRM boat comes from firing at what your team is fighting not firing LRMs at whatever target you manage to lock.



Actually it is fair and you do. You bring the example of ballistics. Ok, think on this: if you put no DHS and no extra dual heatsinks... how effective is your ballistic mech? If you did not train pinpoint skill how effective would your fire be?. Artemis adds only 1 ton and 1 slot per equipped missile weapon... artemis is the ONLY extra thing that is REQUIRED to make LRMs shine. TAG and BAP only help counter ECM and adds range+locking time.they dont affect damage...which is the whole point of this whinepost.

I used to drive a quad-LRM20 catapult A1 with almost 2000 missiles for fun. It used to run at 30kph and had zero armor. Before the LRM changes of course. Today I run my stalker 5s as lrm boat. When I compare their performance I say the Stalker is just a lil bit worse off damage wise and effectiveness wise than my old catapult. I do miss the jumpjets though.

Can you please start frapsing your 700+ damage with ONLY LRM's please.

[Sephlock]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 02 June 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Can you please start frapsing your 700+ damage with ONLY LRM's please.

I've found that those sorts of matches are like quantum particles. We can know that they exist but trying to determine anything more about them collapses the wave function.

[Aim64C]

LonestarrSB, on 02 June 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

-Edit-
Try using LRM's like they are used best...to soften up a target for when you get close with real weapons. Stop being a coward in the back of the map complaining you can't wipe out the team with just a few clicks.

http://mwomercs.com/...lrm-chronicles/

Catapult C4. 4 missile hardpoints. 2 Energy hardpoints in the center torso.

I encourage you to watch how LRMs play. I play them almost identical to how I used to play them back when they did 1.8 points of damage per missile. There's a reason I'd run away and roll a whole team on my own in some poorly made matches. Missiles don't need to go back to 1.8 points of damage with the flight mechanics the way they are. 1.3-1.5 would be pretty fine.

I don't play LRMs from the back of the map, even though you seem to think I have some other mystical "real" weapon to put to use against opponents. I've got two medium lasers... or, if I got crazy - TAG and a medium laser. Maybe a pack of SRMs if I wanted to shed some ammo and drop to 30 tubes.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sephlock, on 02 June 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

I've found that those sorts of matches are like quantum particles. We can know that they exist but trying to determine anything more about them collapses the wave function.

I've tried to replicate these kinds of matches. But it's nigh impossible without using a backup weapon A LOT. IE 50% or more damage.

And it also requires the polar opposite of Wispy.

Like Wispy said...you can't kill him with LRM's.

So the people it would take to do 700 damage with just LRM's would have to be...mechs in the testing ground.

That's how he did it!

[Sephlock]

Or maybe they're getting lucky with ammo explosions?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sephlock, on 02 June 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Or maybe they're getting lucky with ammo explosions?

That was my other thought. I wonder if people like Apoggee and Skyfaller understand ammo explosions get factored in?

[Aim64C]

Skyfaller, on 02 June 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

No, this is now. The team is brawling the enemy mechs and I shoot into them. The high damage number comes from the fact that at under 600m range the LRMs do all strike (artemis LOS+ TAG effect) the target and strikes it all over the armor..front and rear as they play grabass with each other.

The math is very clear. 12 such shots must exist for the numbers you describe. If those are common - then you're playing against some strange types.

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Golden opportunities? Inside 600m range and target is not in cover...when you're behind your entire team.. 'golden' opportunities are plentiful. Using LRMs in this manner is no different than dual AC20s or six PPC stalker driving: you wait for the shot and you only take the shot you think has a damn good chance of hitting.

You missed my point. You're getting all of these golden opportunities. What is your team doing with them?

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This is why you need artemis and LOS. (you do know artemis effect does not kick in unless you have LOS right?). If you fire LRMs without artemis their damage is diluted across the entire mech...one arm to the other. Artemis packs the damage near the CT so the splash damage from the LR/RT hits bleeds into CT.

There's actually a bug, currently. Artemis applies its bonus when it shouldn't.

That said - You need to personally hold LOS on a target. It's great when you have the opportunity to use it - but most of your good firing opportunities will never get the artemis bonus. LOS is broken by competent players - and as soon as LOS is broken - Artemis bonuses drop (even if it was intermittent).

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I agree they are different things. Getting kills is chance based unless you drop the target solo. Doing damage can be ineffective if the damage does not hurt the target (aka artemis+tag lrm vs lrm with no artemis and no tag). Being effective as an LRM boat comes from firing at what your team is fighting not firing LRMs at whatever target you manage to lock.

Yes... and no.

If your team is ravaging some sorry SOB - you really don't need to add your damage to the fray. Pick out a more dangerous target. Of course - this was more practical when LRMs had stopping power. They're an itch that can become a sort of burn if you manage to rain down upon them for a minute, uninterrupted.

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I used to drive a quad-LRM20 catapult A1 with almost 2000 missiles for fun. It used to run at 30kph and had zero armor. Before the LRM changes of course. Today I run my stalker 5s as lrm boat. When I compare their performance I say the Stalker is just a lil bit worse off damage wise and effectiveness wise than my old catapult. I do miss the jumpjets though.

My Jenner would love that thing.

Of course - my C1 would, too. Nothing like shuffling out of the way of missiles like a light mech and giving them a taste of their own medicine (that their poor design choice has left vulnerable to counter-attack). Always fun to run the train on a stalker who though he had an advantage.

I wonder if they then turned around and thought LRMs were overpowered... *scratches head*

[Sephlock]

Can we all at least agree that SSRMs need to be even more powerful vs lights than they are already, because lights are bad and need to be swatted.

SWATTED!



?

[MasterErrant]

Steel Claws, on 01 June 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I am going to assume a few things and say that you were at the back of the map firing salvos at long range at anything you could lock on. Of course you missed. You will almost always miss at ranges of greater than 400 meters because the targets will either break lock or get into cover. Firing at long range is a waste of ammo and ineffectiive. I don't load that many missiles (55 with 900 reloads) and I got 4 kills and 4 assists with 500ish points yesterday on Canyon (with all it's cover) yesterday by doing what I normally do - get within 400 meters before shooting. I always have backup weapons - not having them is asking to die.

Secondly the stalker only has missile slots with 6 and 10 holes so to get an LRM 20 out you have to fire in a long chain. This also decreases the likelyhood of a hit because the extra time between launch start and launch finished. You can loose lock half way through the salvo. The Catapult C4 does better with just it's 2 LRM 20s for this reason. It fires all forty in one big salvo.

If the point of this post is to say that missiles are ineffective, I think I'd have to call BS based on my own experiences.

I think that's th point..they are LRMs not MRMs they should be reliable at longer ranges. and 20-40 damage/ton of ammo is way too low. they are closer now than they hve been. but still not quite there.
If missile damage is .9 then a ton of ammo is woth 162 potential damage (Not counting slpash) I would expect a well played lrmmer to get about 30-40% of that average. so 50 ish...that reflects my expereince with TT
also counting that some larm salvos are fired for suppression rather than effect..

[Volthorne]

Skyfaller, on 02 June 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Actually it is fair and you do. You bring the example of ballistics. Ok, think on this: if you put no DHS and no extra dual heatsinks... how effective is your ballistic mech? If you did not train pinpoint skill how effective would your fire be?. Artemis adds only 1 ton and 1 slot per equipped missile weapon... artemis is the ONLY extra thing that is REQUIRED to make LRMs shine. TAG and BAP only help counter ECM and adds range+locking time.they dont affect damage...which is the whole point of this whinepost.

That's ******** and you know it. DHS are a universal upgrade, so saying they affect one weapon system more than another is complete garbage. Pilot efficiencies affect everything as well. I'm talking about having optional equipment that isn't actually optional. I'm not forced to bring Artemis in TT to make my LRMs effective, why should I be forced to bring Artemis in MW:O? More importantly, if LRMs are suffering from having non-optional attachments, then EVERY weapon system should be taking that penalty. I'd love to see you argue that having an AC/20 require 15 tonnes and 11 slots to be as good as it is now isn't broken and bad. How about a Gauss that takes 16 tonnes and 10 slots? PPCs that take 8 tonnes and 4 slots? Medium Lasers taking 2 tonnes and 2 slots?

If you can't see this then you're blind and should go die in a hole.

Edited by Volthorne, 02 June 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[Demuder]

It's funny how amidst all the anti-boat and anti-pinpoint and anti-high alpha threads, someone makes up a whole experiment to prove that a weapon that is not currently boat-able (according to the OP and several other LRM proponents, because I see plenty of LRM boats that carry so many LRMs they shoot each salvo in 3-4 sub salvos, so they must be at least somewhat useful) should become one. I for one, have never witnessed a mech standing and ignoring the rain of missiles without doing anything to avoid them. Just like their are trying to avoid any other weapon in the game.

If you are so convinced that LRMs are nerfed to the ground, then please go stand motionless, without AMS, in front of a 40 LRM salvo mech and see how fast you die - LOS or no LOS, Artemis or no Artemis, TAG or no TAG.

In fact, and there's no sarcasm in this, take a 2x15 LRM stalker and 7 tons ammo with TAG and Artemis and go kill an Atlas in the training grounds. Time it. Then take a mech with one Gauss, 40 gauss ammo and an ERPPC (1 ton more weapon tonnage than the LRM built, 10% less heat efficient with a STD 300) and start shooting at the Atlas while moving (no cheating, you have to move verticaly to the direction of fire constantly, not just circling the target). The movement is needed to bring the two weapons on equal terms, since for an LRM boat with a lock, the target is practically motionless no matter what it does. Cover that breaks LOS is irrelevant since it works for both weapons although skewed in favor of the LRMs since you might have a friendly lock, but I will give you that. Of course you can predict your movements and compensate your aim while a live target would move incoherently, but hey, I am generous, I will give you that as well. If you want it to be fair, have a friend control your mech's movement while you only move the torso so you can compensate for the eratic movements of a foe you are shooting at while he is brawling with your buddy. Time it. Oh, and since we want to be thorough, try at 200m, 500m, 700m and 1000m. Once you are done, replace the atlas with a smaller chassis, say a medium. Just for kicks.

I am very interested to hear about the results though we all know what will be faster and easier.

And to my limited, noobish experience, whenever I go 4-man with buddies, a 30 - 40 LRM mech is equally devastating to the mech I am brawling with, with a Gauss - ERPPC one.

Edited by dimstog, 02 June 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Bobdolemite]

One thing I think people miss in this mess is that I didnt chose to equip no other weapons because it would be fun, I did it because if any other weapons were equipped I would be tempted to use them and the numbers would be meaningless. I usually ran my wanna be boats with 4-6 ml, funny part is I tended to do more damage with the lasers than with the missiles! Averaging 700 with 2 x ALRM 15's + 4 med lasers is okay and not indicative of strength or weakness in LRMS but in the build as a whole. (This was a test about average damage of a super boat)

I welcome anyone else to go run some matches themselves and get some screenies, its easy to say you average something without any evidence (not calling any of you liars, because ive used the same statement before, only cautioning people to gather real data to illustrate their points)

Id respond to the calls that all I do is sit around at the back of the map but im having this deja vu feeling like ive explained it before (maybe im going crazy)

[Aim64C]

dimstog, on 02 June 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

If you are so convinced that LRMs are nerfed to the ground, then please go stand motionless, without AMS, in front of a 40 LRM salvo mech and see how fast you die - LOS or no LOS, Artemis or no Artemis, TAG or no TAG.

http://mwomercs.com/...lrm-chronicles/

Numerous volunteers and examples in a few of my games.

Watch as 40 LRMs turn their armor from yellow to yellow-orange. Their yellow-orange armor to orange-yellow... their orange-yellow armor to a sort of orange color... and that sort of orange color to a darker orange... we eventually hit red and yellow internals. Then watch as yet another salvo reduces their yellow internals to off-yellow internals.

Sure - I get high damage at the end of the match, because I have to pretty much destroy every point of armor on a mechs torso.

This isn't the days of 1.8 missile damage. Those were the days, though.

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In fact, and there's no sarcasm in this, take a 2x15 LRM stalker and 7 tons ammo with TAG and Artemis and go kill an Atlas in the training grounds. Time it.

I don't play in the training grounds. I play in the 'real world.' And record it - so that it's not just me telling tales from school.

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Then take a mech with one Gauss, 40 gauss ammo and an ERPPC (1 ton more weapon tonnage than the LRM built, 10% less heat efficient with a STD 300) and start shooting at the Atlas while moving (no cheating, you have to move verticaly to the direction of fire constantly, not just circling the target). The movement is needed to bring the two weapons on equal terms, since for an LRM boat with a lock, the target is practically motionless no matter what it does. Cover that breaks LOS is irrelevant since it works for both weapons although skewed in favor of the LRMs since you might have a friendly lock, but I will give you that. Of course you can predict your movements and compensate your aim while a live target would move incoherently, but hey, I am generous, I will give you that as well. If you want it to be fair, have a friend control your mech's movement while you only move the torso so you can compensate for the eratic movements of a foe you are shooting at while he is brawling with your buddy. Time it. Oh, and since we want to be thorough, try at 200m, 500m, 700m and 1000m. Once you are done, replace the atlas with a smaller chassis, say a medium. Just for kicks.

One of my recordings is of a match on Tourmaline. Watch as I send a few 40-round salvos into a crippled Jaggermech with LOS and Artemis, only for it to continue surviving (Yet I'm supposed to be this fearsome beast of a machine)... then compare that to the few seconds I'm within the sights of an AC40 Jager just moments later.

Night and day. You can brush me off as a bad hangover. That AC40 Jager thoroughly impregnated me with all its unborn children using a telephone pole in less time than it takes most people to find the team chat button.

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I am very interested to hear about the results though we all know what will be faster and easier.

If you watch - you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. There are numerous times where salvos hit for ... underwhelming effect. It's why I usually run my Jenner. I rack up just as many kills - and can actually kill mechs on my own (of any size and role). I can actually -do something- to support the team. In those videos - I'm just along for the ride. If my team is doing really well - then I'm doing pretty well. If they're getting rolled - then I top our team damage charts... but I can't even provide long distance fire support that is going to make much of a difference to someone in the hot-seat.

[Chrithu]

Well the current state of LRMs seems about right. You can still do good with them, but now it takes some effort and good team work. At least that's what the OP's numbers and my first and second hand ingame experience are telling me. After Missile HSR is ingame we might finally see missiles in a fairly balanced state.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

dimstog, on 02 June 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

The movement is needed to bring the two weapons on equal terms, since for an LRM boat with a lock, the target is practically motionless no matter what it does.

Not true. Movement, even a little bit of it, is a huge mitigating factor when receiving LRM fire. Stationary targets will melt right quick even with current UP LRMs, since the damage winds up almost exclusively on the CT. Add 50kph or more of movement and suddenly the damage starts getting spread out a bit. It still preferentially dings the CT, but it's no longer almost exclusive, and that makes a huge difference. Higher speeds make for less missile concentration (and fewer overall missile hits, too).

Your point about cover isn't a great one, either. A direct-fire weapon will not be fired when the target is exposed and then fail to hit because the target moved behind cover while the projectile was in flight. Only LRMs (and to a lesser extent Streaks) have to deal with clean shots that become bad ones. Sure, the Target Decay module helps, especially at short ranges (for the shorter transit time), but hit-scan lasers and very-high-velocity PPCs, Gauss, and light ACs don't encounter the issue at all (unless you're wall hacking and don't know that terrain is in the way).

[Ningyo]

Right no LRMs make a bad player not quite as bad, a decent player slightly worse, a good player decent, and an excellent player decent.

Ideally they should make a Bad player decent, A decent player decent, a good player good, and an excellent player good. (this is just my view of them due to the homing/indirect fire) It is very likely other people have other views of what they should be. Personally I think there is probably a bug going on with their damage, and if not they should be raised by 10% or so. Then see again. I do think they are slightly weak, but they are nothing like Flamers or LB 10-X. They do fill a very unique roll though and thus it is important to get them right.

[Wildstreak]

I would have to also ask what the targets were when collecting data.

Example, if I run a Mech such as my HBK-4P and shoot at Lights and Mediums, my damage score is less than if I just shoot at Assaults. I have had games with better than my average damage score and during the whole game I shot at nothing but Assaults, all because Assaults soak up more damage so shooting at them more raises your damage results.

[Aim64C]

Merchant, on 02 June 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

I would have to also ask what the targets were when collecting data.

Example, if I run a Mech such as my HBK-4P and shoot at Lights and Mediums, my damage score is less than if I just shoot at Assaults. I have had games with better than my average damage score and during the whole game I shot at nothing but Assaults, all because Assaults soak up more damage so shooting at them more raises your damage results.

http://mwomercs.com/...lrm-chronicles/

While not his study - that's 6 games of my own that I recorded. It's not just damage at the end of the game - you can see everything I did in that match.

You can see how the LRM flight path has improved considerably.

This, however, doesn't make up for the fact that you're not really accumulating much meaningful damage on the target. Sure - you can have 500 damage at the end of the round - but when that's distributed across 15 or more torso segments and 10 arms/legs - the result is underwhemling in practice. Sure - the number at the end of the screen is big... but it's not really an indication of how your firepower contributed to defeating the enemy... to which LRM designs currently do not do so well.