194 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Aim64C, on 01 June 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

And, yet, those are not all that different from my results piloting a Jenner with 6 medium lasers.

I run more consistent games with a mech nearly 1/3 the tonnage, no ammo restrictions, and pinpoint damage. Which means I'm regularly scoring far more kills and component destructions.

Good for you I guess.

Just because you are better at light mechs than assaults or better with lasers than LRMs doesn't change the fact that the results shown in the OP are actually alright.

[Aim64C]

Ghogiel, on 01 June 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Good for you I guess.

Just because you are better at light mechs than assaults or better with lasers than LRMs doesn't change the fact that the results shown in the OP are actually alright.

The problem is that a Catapult C4 is going to get, roughly, half that amount of damage.

And what about a treb? Even if it can carry a formidable number of tubes - it can't pack on the ammo nearly like a C1 can.

Which is why you don't see them, anymore, outside of people who are simply 'playing' with them to see what's changed.

Consider that all of my damage being done with a Jenner is going to the same general area of a battlemech. It might not all be dumped into the same torso section - but more often than not, it's all getting dumped into two or fewer. Missiles hit all over.

Playing as a Jenner, I've watched as other fire support designs have rained missiles down upon my target. Their damage was insignificant compared to my own. Even on the grand scheme of things - they were doing pitiful amounts of damage. Even though several volleys came down upon these mechs - their armor had barely gone from yellow to orange. Several volleys of at least 30 missiles each.

It's stupid. You can't be effective fire support. No matter what the damage numbers at the end say.

Sure - you can score a few kills to your name - but that's largely whenever you pick up a target that has already been chewed down to internals by direct fire. Killing something on your own is just prohibitively time consuming and ammunition intensive.

This is coming from three different perspectives - as a light mech spotting, as a light and heavy mech receiving the occasional salvo, and as a heavy mech dealing those salvos. There's simply no reason to take an LRM boat. The only way to be even remotely effective is to take a stalker with an absolutely insane number of tubes that most responsible pilots would avoid. Even then - you're blowing a **** ton of ammo for very little actual effect.

I used to rock in LRM builds - playing both strategic and tactical roles. I'd take my C1 and absolutely **** a stalker LRM boat who (in my opinion) was dishonorable. I loved taking my canon-inspired build and using it to run the train on the odd attempts at min-max builds that I still see as ridiculous insults to soldiering.

But there's simply no reason to, now. Not only are the stakes raised with gauss and PPC strikes hitting far more often - but your damage output potential is just stupidly low. You are going to deal, maybe, 30 points of damage (given the spread pattern) using 2 LRM20s across the entire torso section of an enemy mech. That's 10 points per section (average), per salvo.

Your recycle time with LRM20s is about 4.5 seconds by time you unlock efficiencies. Excluding flight time and assuming you land every shot - it will take an average of 20 sustained seconds of firing to bring down most medium mechs. Sinking every shot.

In practice - you'd need about 45 seconds to pull this off - 2-3 seconds to acquire and establish a lock, one to fire, about six seconds to travel, and factor in your cool-downs plus the flight time of the last salvo.

Assaults? You're looking at roughly a minute or more of him being completely out in the open and exposed to bring down.

30 seconds with my Jenner and your assault under similar circumistances of your inepness - and I'm already half way to my next victim. 15 seconds in front of a PPC/Gauss highlander and you're gone.

[Volthorne]

Aim64C, on 02 June 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

The problem is that a Catapult C4 is going to get, roughly, half that amount of damage.

And what about a treb? Even if it can carry a formidable number of tubes - it can't pack on the ammo nearly like a C1 can.

Which is why you don't see them, anymore, outside of people who are simply 'playing' with them to see what's changed.

Consider that all of my damage being done with a Jenner is going to the same general area of a battlemech. It might not all be dumped into the same torso section - but more often than not, it's all getting dumped into two or fewer. Missiles hit all over.

Playing as a Jenner, I've watched as other fire support designs have rained missiles down upon my target. Their damage was insignificant compared to my own. Even on the grand scheme of things - they were doing pitiful amounts of damage. Even though several volleys came down upon these mechs - their armor had barely gone from yellow to orange. Several volleys of at least 30 missiles each.

It's stupid. You can't be effective fire support. No matter what the damage numbers at the end say.

Sure - you can score a few kills to your name - but that's largely whenever you pick up a target that has already been chewed down to internals by direct fire. Killing something on your own is just prohibitively time consuming and ammunition intensive.

This is coming from three different perspectives - as a light mech spotting, as a light and heavy mech receiving the occasional salvo, and as a heavy mech dealing those salvos. There's simply no reason to take an LRM boat. The only way to be even remotely effective is to take a stalker with an absolutely insane number of tubes that most responsible pilots would avoid. Even then - you're blowing a **** ton of ammo for very little actual effect.

I used to rock in LRM builds - playing both strategic and tactical roles. I'd take my C1 and absolutely **** a stalker LRM boat who (in my opinion) was dishonorable. I loved taking my canon-inspired build and using it to run the train on the odd attempts at min-max builds that I still see as ridiculous insults to soldiering.

But there's simply no reason to, now. Not only are the stakes raised with gauss and PPC strikes hitting far more often - but your damage output potential is just stupidly low. You are going to deal, maybe, 30 points of damage (given the spread pattern) using 2 LRM20s across the entire torso section of an enemy mech. That's 10 points per section (average), per salvo.

Your recycle time with LRM20s is about 4.5 seconds by time you unlock efficiencies. Excluding flight time and assuming you land every shot - it will take an average of 20 sustained seconds of firing to bring down most medium mechs. Sinking every shot.

In practice - you'd need about 45 seconds to pull this off - 2-3 seconds to acquire and establish a lock, one to fire, about six seconds to travel, and factor in your cool-downs plus the flight time of the last salvo.

Assaults? You're looking at roughly a minute or more of him being completely out in the open and exposed to bring down.

30 seconds with my Jenner and your assault under similar circumistances of your inepness - and I'm already half way to my next victim. 15 seconds in front of a PPC/Gauss highlander and you're gone.

For those who might happen to be reading impaired I present the following one-liner to suit your... well... ... ...yeah.

TL;DR: LRMs are garbage unless you boat them in ungodly quantities to the exclusion of anything else, and then they're only worthless.

Edited by Volthorne, 02 June 2013 - 12:20 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Aim64C, on 02 June 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

The problem is that a Catapult C4 is going to get, roughly, half that amount of damage.

And what about a treb? Even if it can carry a formidable number of tubes - it can't pack on the ammo nearly like a C1 can.

Which is why you don't see them, anymore, outside of people who are simply 'playing' with them to see what's changed.

Consider that all of my damage being done with a Jenner is going to the same general area of a battlemech. It might not all be dumped into the same torso section - but more often than not, it's all getting dumped into two or fewer. Missiles hit all over.

Playing as a Jenner, I've watched as other fire support designs have rained missiles down upon my target. Their damage was insignificant compared to my own. Even on the grand scheme of things - they were doing pitiful amounts of damage. Even though several volleys came down upon these mechs - their armor had barely gone from yellow to orange. Several volleys of at least 30 missiles each.

It's stupid. You can't be effective fire support. No matter what the damage numbers at the end say.

Sure - you can score a few kills to your name - but that's largely whenever you pick up a target that has already been chewed down to internals by direct fire. Killing something on your own is just prohibitively time consuming and ammunition intensive.

This is coming from three different perspectives - as a light mech spotting, as a light and heavy mech receiving the occasional salvo, and as a heavy mech dealing those salvos. There's simply no reason to take an LRM boat. The only way to be even remotely effective is to take a stalker with an absolutely insane number of tubes that most responsible pilots would avoid. Even then - you're blowing a **** ton of ammo for very little actual effect.

I used to rock in LRM builds - playing both strategic and tactical roles. I'd take my C1 and absolutely **** a stalker LRM boat who (in my opinion) was dishonorable. I loved taking my canon-inspired build and using it to run the train on the odd attempts at min-max builds that I still see as ridiculous insults to soldiering.

But there's simply no reason to, now. Not only are the stakes raised with gauss and PPC strikes hitting far more often - but your damage output potential is just stupidly low. You are going to deal, maybe, 30 points of damage (given the spread pattern) using 2 LRM20s across the entire torso section of an enemy mech. That's 10 points per section (average), per salvo.

Your recycle time with LRM20s is about 4.5 seconds by time you unlock efficiencies. Excluding flight time and assuming you land every shot - it will take an average of 20 sustained seconds of firing to bring down most medium mechs. Sinking every shot.

In practice - you'd need about 45 seconds to pull this off - 2-3 seconds to acquire and establish a lock, one to fire, about six seconds to travel, and factor in your cool-downs plus the flight time of the last salvo.

Assaults? You're looking at roughly a minute or more of him being completely out in the open and exposed to bring down.

30 seconds with my Jenner and your assault under similar circumistances of your inepness - and I'm already half way to my next victim. 15 seconds in front of a PPC/Gauss highlander and you're gone.

I'm just quoting this long *** post without even reading it.

Pretty sure the correct response is one of these though> L2P, ITS A TEAM GAME, devs gotta eat too, 3second jenner etc.

[Sephlock]

Ghogiel, on 01 June 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Good for you I guess.

Just because you are better at light mechs than assaults or better with lasers than LRMs doesn't change the fact that the results shown in the OP are actually alright.

Yes, as it turns out, if you devote your entire Assault mech to firing LRMs and fire them continuously over the course of an entire match, you can do "alright".

OR you could strip off those LRMs and replace them with anything other than the big five* and do 1.5x to 2x + better, even if you die early in the match- and that's not counting good matches, or even EXTREMELY good matches, which will cause you to reach damage levels unattainable with LRMs against any but the derpiest of foes.


*MGs, Flamers, LBX, Slas, SPLAS

[Sephlock]

Actually I'd wager that Slas and SPLAS could work out better than LRMs on the right build, and MAYBE LBX if you played cautiously and didn't give a **** about winning, just maxxing your damage numbers.

[Ghogiel]

Sephlock, on 02 June 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Yes, as it turns out, if you devote your entire Assault mech to firing LRMs and fire them continuously over the course of an entire match, you can do "alright".

OR you could strip off those LRMs and replace them with anything other than the big five* and do 1.5x to 2x + better, even if you die early in the match- and that's not counting good matches, or even EXTREMELY good matches, which will cause you to reach damage levels unattainable with LRMs against any but the derpiest of foes.


*MGs, Flamers, LBX, Slas, SPLAS

Doesn't matter and there is no OR.

The point is the results shown in the OP are what they are. My opinion on weapon balance is irrelevant> The mech was top 3 in damage and grabbed a decent amount of kills, which is not indicative of LRMs being **** or that PPCs are mack daddy or anything. All it says imo is he performed pretty decently in an LRM boat.

[Aim64C]

Ghogiel, on 02 June 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

I'm just quoting this long *** post without even reading it.

I call a Trial of Grievance.

If it were allowed, I'd even call for a Trial of Annihilation out to two vectors. But I have a feeling that a council would not agree with how severe I perceive your insult to be to all things sharing so much as 90% of our DNA.

Quote

Pretty sure the correct response is one of these though> L2P, ITS A TEAM GAME, devs gotta eat too, 3second jenner etc.

Seriously? That's all you've got.

Pushover.

[Aim64C]

Ghogiel, on 02 June 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Doesn't matter and there is no OR.

The point is the results shown in the OP are what they are. My opinion on weapon balance is irrelevant> The mech was top 3 in damage and grabbed a decent amount of kills, which is not indicative of LRMs being **** or that PPCs are mack daddy or anything. All it says imo is he performed pretty decently in an LRM boat.

That's a mech with nearly 3x the number of tubes and 2x the amount of maximum ammo as mechs like the Trebuchet - which have all but disappeared unless they dump their missiles and adopt PPCs.

Because they can barely manage one 'legitimate' kill against an enemy. The mech cannot stand on its own - even when it has all day to simply shoot at enemies and land perfect hits with TAG and Artemis stacked - it's going to blow all of its ammo and -maybe- kill two mechs completely on its own in a perfect little world where the enemies don't shoot back or seek cover. Then it's left with its backup weaponry.

Even a ******* spider with 4 MGs can do better in such a perfect little world.

[Sephlock]

^ No no, see... pushing yourself to the absolute maximum and doing mediocre is perfectly okay.... little mechs like the Trebuchet don't even factor into it- there "is no OR", after all.

All that needs to be considered is whether an absolutely maxxed out LRM boat can ever do mediocre damage. That one snapshot in time and space is all that need be considered. All those bothersome "facts" and "context" just muddy the waters, you see!

[Ghogiel]

Aim64C, on 02 June 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

That's a mech with nearly 3x the number of tubes and 2x the amount of maximum ammo as mechs like the Trebuchet - which have all but disappeared unless they dump their missiles and adopt PPCs.

Because they can barely manage one 'legitimate' kill against an enemy. The mech cannot stand on its own - even when it has all day to simply shoot at enemies and land perfect hits with TAG and Artemis stacked - it's going to blow all of its ammo and -maybe- kill two mechs completely on its own in a perfect little world where the enemies don't shoot back or seek cover. Then it's left with its backup weaponry.

Even a ******* spider with 4 MGs can do better in such a perfect little world.

You'll have to debate LRMs usefulness with someone else.

The only debate that can be had here is if you think top 3 in damage, usually with kills is either a poor performance, a good one, or somewhere in between.

Edited by Ghogiel, 02 June 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

I have to say, that just is not a good build.

i run 2x LRM-15's with Artemis, or 2x LRM-20 with Artemis on my LRM mechs, usually with 7 tons of ammo. thats 1 ton less than you. the ONLY benefit to your build is theoretically your volleys hit harder, as you launch more missiles at once. i can blow through 6-7 tons of LRM ammo with half (or less) the tubes in a match, and of course i come up with similar damage numbers (frequently better, but LRM's are my thing, and i have good spotters usually)

this goes to show that more =/= better when it comes to LRM boating. i much prefer my 40 tubes with backups for close range and plenty of armor etc to 80 tubes of slow and easy to kill. the MOST i ever break out is 4x Artemis LRM-15 on a Stalker, and even that has 4 mediums at least.

[Ghogiel]

Sephlock, on 02 June 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

^ No no, see... pushing yourself to the absolute maximum and doing mediocre is perfectly okay.... little mechs like the Trebuchet don't even factor into it- there "is no OR", after all.

All that needs to be considered is whether an absolutely maxxed out LRM boat can ever do mediocre damage. That one snapshot in time and space is all that need be considered. All those bothersome "facts" and "context" just muddy the waters, you see!

Look at the facts we are debating.

OP won 8/10 matches
OP got 13 kills in 10 matches
OP was top damage dealer in 4/10 matches

^imo nothing is wrong with that in assault mech.

Edited by Ghogiel, 02 June 2013 - 01:23 AM.

[Sephlock]

Right! If you can't win with logic or reason, just narrow the parameters of the debate until the tiny sliver of reality that you are focusing on makes you appear to be correct.

It doesn't matter if anything other than boating LRMs is 2 times better, 10 times better, or 100 times better.

The fact that you have to essentially become a fusion reactor with nothing but LRMs strapped to it is completely irrelevant. Not even worth mentioning.

The fact that lighter mechs- even ones specifically designed to use missiles as their primary (or sole) means of engaging at range (or at all) are borked is irrelevant.

A loaded-to-the-gills Assault mech boating nothing but LRMs can do okay, therefore its all hunky dory.

Don't even TRY to think about anything else.

Edited by Sephlock, 02 June 2013 - 01:33 AM.

[Aim64C]

Ghogiel, on 02 June 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

You'll have to debate LRMs usefulness with someone else.

The only debate that can be had here is if you think top 3 in damage, usually with kills is either a poor performance, a good one, or somewhere in between.

For an assault packing a saturation damage weapon - that's poor performance.

I recall when most Assaults were ranging in the 500 point damage range using direct fire weaponry. PPCs have changed that - since point damage has led to much more precise destruction. You don't need to do 500 damage to kill an enemy mech. I average about 130 damage or so to kill an opponent in my Jenner - which is needlessly high - especially considering people are running with very thin rear torso armor, these days. Why worry about being flanked by PPC-boating heavies and assaults that can barely move? Best bet is to put that armor on the front, where you're going to be taking most of your hits.

Most of the kills LRM players receive are simply collateral kills. They've already been virtually cored by some combination of medium lasers, PPCs, and ACs - and their missiles happen to be there to deliver the kill.

Think about it. A weapon that deals saturation damage (its damage distributes to each part) scoring two kills with 400 damage and 6 assists (or more). He's not dropping mechs left and right. He's contributing the equivalent of two or three medium laser shots to a few torso sections on each opponent.

Which is exactly why my Jenner can match his build in damage. Except my damage is far more concentrated to the damage he's dealing, and most of my time is spent running between opponents rather than shooting at them (not that I could shoot as much as I'd like, anyway - kind of have a little thing called heat to worry about... which... if he's boating LRM20s - he has to worry about, too).

That's what the numbers don't tell you. How effective you are actually being on the team.

Playing LRMs is more like chipping in damage as an "Oh yeah... well... *flips the bird*" It's rarely a proper softening or support weapon in its current implementation. Only when the opponents are completely and totally devoid of neurons does it fill that role.

And in that case - you're often just as well off to slam 4 PPCs into their center torso, wait a few seconds, and do it all over again for a kill that would take 45-90 seconds, depending upon the target, with all but the most intense tube-boating LRM designs.

You're just kind of 'there.' Not really doing anything... even when you're sinking every volley you have fired into the targets. Even when your team mates are providing excellent locks, TAG bonuses, etc - you're just watching as the AC-20 Jaeger tears up your brave spotters and then comes for you - and you find your backup pair of medium lasers to be more effective at dealing with the threat than your primary battery of 40 missiles.

You can play for "okay" damage if you are being very, very precise and have a really good match. But you are really kind of along for the ride with your team. You can't do much to change battles like you used to - like you can in a good sniper, or a good light mech (or a good medium, before all the snipers made you just a little too slow and a little too fragile).

[Sephlock]

Aim64C, on 02 June 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

You're just kind of 'there.' Not really doing anything... even when you're sinking every volley you have fired into the targets. Even when your team mates are providing excellent locks, TAG bonuses, etc - you're just watching as the AC-20 Jaeger tears up your brave spotters and then comes for you - and you find your backup pair of medium lasers to be more effective at dealing with the threat than your primary battery of 40 missiles.

You can play for "okay" damage if you are being very, very precise and have a really good match. But you are really kind of along for the ride with your team. You can't do much to change battles like you used to - like you can in a good sniper, or a good light mech (or a good medium, before all the snipers made you just a little too slow and a little too fragile).

[Demuder]

I would like to note that the OP's research, although commendable, is not accurate by any statistical means.

LRMs are a guided weapon, with the caveat that it doesn't always connect. That actually depends both on the skill of the player firing the missiles and the skill of the player avoiding them - and to some degree to the amount of AMS present, ECM present, etc. Exactly how the analysis in the OP's post - or anyone's for that matter, reflect those properties ?

What's more, who said that boating that many LRMs on an assault with about half the tubes is even supposed to be close to effective ? Even the premises of the "experiment" are wrong.

Edited by dimstog, 02 June 2013 - 01:52 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Sephlock, on 02 June 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

Right! If you can't win with logic or reason, just narrow the parameters of the debate until the tiny sliver of reality that you are focusing on makes you appear to be correct.


It doesn't matter if anything other than boating LRMs is 2 times better, 10 times better, or 100 times better.

what are you babbling about. Reread the OP when it states this>

"So I got tired of a lot of the baseless claims about weapon balance, which weapons are OP and which weapons are under-rated etc."
"Let the numbers speak for themselves"

Quote

The fact that you have to essentially become a fusion reactor with nothing but LRMs strapped to it is completely irrelevant. Not even worth mentioning.

You mean boating? Correct. Boating is not worth mentioning. It hardly requires such hyperbole when that is how the majority equip their mechs, it should almost go without saying at this point.

Quote

The fact that lighter mechs- even ones specifically designed to use missiles as their primary (or sole) means of engaging at range (or at all) are borked is irrelevant.

A loaded-to-the-gills Assault mech boating nothing but LRMs can do okay, therefore its all hunky dory.

Don't even TRY to think about anything else.

You think about anything you want. Sure if you want to go off on a tangent and talk about flamers, medium mechs or whatever go for it, It'll never change the facts as outlined in my previous post or my opinion> OP did OK in an LRM boat.

[Sephlock]

Perhaps a visual aid for this absurdity is in order:

He even goes out of his way to say what missiles are in English right at the beginning of the video (ignore the subtitles there).

[Sephlock]

dimstog, on 02 June 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

What's more, who said that boating that many LRMs on an assault with about half the tubes is even supposed to be close to effective ? Even the premises of the "experiment" are wrong.

So where does that leave the poor, poor Trebuchet?

Ghogiel, on 02 June 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

You mean boating? Correct. Boating is not worth mentioning. It hardly requires such hyperbole when that is how the majority equip their mechs, it should almost go without saying at this point.

Right, it makes perfect sense to assume that if the best results with boating < common results with anything else, that people who only take a few LRM launchers will do just fine.

Quote

You think about anything you want. Sure if you want to go off on a tangent and talk about flamers, medium mechs or whatever go for it, It'll never change the facts as outlined in my previous post or my opinion&gt; OP did OK in an LRM boat.

Right. Continuously firing in a mech designed solely to use LRMs only does "OK". It is however a complete mystery as to what the results would be if a lighter mech were to take LRMs- particularly a light mech.

We can only assume that it would work out just fine though. Yup. No problems here.