138 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

It's something like 16% of the mechs in the pool are lights. By forcing 3-4/8 to be lights(or actually mediums as it happens) on one team is basically the worst case scenario the match maker has to deal with.

Pick one>
long wait times for matches
weight disparity
Elo rating disparity.

[Ezekeel666]

Ghogiel, on 01 June 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

It's something like 16% of the mechs in the pool are lights. By forcing 3-4/8 to be lights(or actually mediums as it happens) on one team is basically the worst case scenario the match maker has to deal with.

Pick one>
long wait times for matches
weight disparity
Elo rating disparity.

Your argument is invalid. The matchmaker exists so it should be able to gracefully handle every setup thrown at it. Why? Because that is its job. The data presented clearly show that there are cases were the matchmaker fails horrendously indicating that the algorithm used is unstable and needs improvement.

[Ghogiel]

Ezekeel666, on 01 June 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Your argument is invalid. The matchmaker exists so it should be able to gracefully handle every setup thrown at it. Why? Because that is its job. The data presented clearly show that there are cases were the matchmaker fails horrendously indicating that the algorithm used is unstable and needs improvement.

Actually it shows there aren't enough light mechs in the pool at that time with a similar Elo.

[Shadowsword8]

Ezekeel666, on 01 June 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Your argument is invalid. The matchmaker exists so it should be able to gracefully handle every setup thrown at it. Why? Because that is its job. The data presented clearly show that there are cases were the matchmaker fails horrendously indicating that the algorithm used is unstable and needs improvement.

The data itself is invalid because the OP didn't solo pug and imposed 3 lights on one side. Nothing to see there, move along...

[Jman5]

Matchmaker gets a little screwy when you're in a 4-man team that overloads on one chassis. It will be interesting to see whether 12v12 will make this problem disappear. In the meantime, I would suggest dropping a more balanced team.

[Chemie]

Asakara:

The problem is you took a 4-man 3 lights in lance.

Bottom line is that MM cannot propoerly balance against unbalanced 4-mans. If you take a balanced lance, it is usually OK. But if you take an all light lance, it is very common to get screwed.

Remember 80% of the mechs inthe queue are assault so MM has no choice. With 3 lights, you need MM to find 3 lights for opponenents who are about same ELO. That ain't gonna happen most matches.

Edited by Chemie, 02 June 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ningyo, on 01 June 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I looked in more detail at your screenshots, and it appears you were mostly dropping as a 4 group ith an average weight around 50 ton. Since most people play heavier mechs it is probably very difficult for the matchmaker to find even matches for you. I would suggest trying this again with an average weight of 65-75 tons and see if you still have this problem.

They should be able to drop in whatever they want and matchmaker should find them an appropriate balanced match. If it does not its broken.

[Redshift2k5]

The weightclass matching was changed multiple times since April 16th where you've quoted PGI.

The most recent change had much tighter tolerance on Elo rating but looser tolerance on weightclass matching.

[OneEyed Jack]

PhoenixFire55, on 02 June 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

They should be able to drop in whatever they want and matchmaker should find them an appropriate balanced match. If it does not its broken.

The MM can't control who is available to be matched at a given time or what mechs they're driving. It can only work with the available pool of players currently waiting for a match and the mechs they launched with. If the players aren't available to create a weight-balanced match at that time, it has to work with whoever IS available. The alternative is a lot of "failed to find."

[Exoth3rmic]

To be noted that when you lose it doesn't necessarily impact your Elo that much if the matchmaker favours the opposing team and vice versa. MM is there to make the "imbalances" occur less often than with random matchmaking - not give you an absolute even chance every match. If you still believe that the system is now worse than when it was random, I suggest you dig up some screenshots from those days.

[PhoenixFire55]

OneEyed Jack, on 02 June 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

The MM can't control who is available to be matched at a given time or what mechs they're driving. It can only work with the available pool of players currently waiting for a match and the mechs they launched with. If the players aren't available to create a weight-balanced match at that time, it has to work with whoever IS available. The alternative is a lot of "failed to find."

Then don't claim your matchmaker is working according to plan. If its not doing its job for whatever reason its broken. If players pool is small and can't allow for Elo and tonnage matching get rid of Elo.

[Ghogiel]

PhoenixFire55, on 02 June 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

They should be able to drop in whatever they want and matchmaker should find them an appropriate balanced match. If it does not its broken.

If everyone was willing to potentially wait for a very long time for a match, we could have matches that are actually balanced nearly all the time right now.

Unless the player base increases a lot.. matches will have to take longer to fill or the threshold for weight/Elo needs to be flexible.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Just means there aren't enough people playing.

We all knew that though.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ghogiel, on 02 June 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

If everyone was willing to potentially wait for a very long time for a match, we could have matches that are actually balanced nearly all the time right now.

Unless the player base increases a lot.. matches will have to take longer to fill or the threshold for weight/Elo needs to be flexible.

True. But thing is right now tonnage part is the only part thats flexible, thus a lot of tonnage mismatches. Funny part is that the % of matches (I speak about my matches) that aren't anywhere near (aka 8:0-8:1 and visa versa) is way way higher then the % of matches where I have tonnage mismatching, which in turn means that Elo matching means little towards game being close game or not. Should make Elo part flexible and tonnage part non-flexible (inside 20-30 tons tops).

[Ghogiel]

PhoenixFire55, on 02 June 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

True. But thing is right now tonnage part is the only part thats flexible, thus a lot of tonnage mismatches. Funny part is that the % of matches (I speak about my matches) that aren't anywhere near (aka 8:0-8:1 and visa versa) is way way higher then the % of matches where I have tonnage mismatching, which in turn means that Elo matching means little towards game being close game or not. Should make Elo part flexible and tonnage part non-flexible (inside 20-30 tons tops).

From what the devs have said, the Elo threshold is flexible as well BTW. Personally, skill gaps are far more annoying than an 80tons disparity on occasion, I'd trade an atlas derper for a good jenner anyday.

I don't track my personal stats so haven't any anecdotes to add, but in any case that would be fairly useless when iirc not too long ago PGI did mention what percentage of matches that end in sweeps...

[Fate 6]

Hammertrial, on 01 June 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Furthermore, I'd suspect that your time of play had to do way more with your experiences than the matchmaker being bad.

You know what would really help? Time the time from hitting launch until a match. If it's over a minute all bets are off.

If you play a mech under 50 tons it's almost always more than a minute to find a match, easily 2 minutes.

[Fate 6]

Chemie, on 02 June 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Asakara:

The problem is you took a 4-man 3 lights in lance.

Bottom line is that MM cannot propoerly balance against unbalanced 4-mans. If you take a balanced lance, it is usually OK. But if you take an all light lance, it is very common to get screwed.

Remember 80% of the mechs inthe queue are assault so MM has no choice. With 3 lights, you need MM to find 3 lights for opponenents who are about same ELO. That ain't gonna happen most matches.

The average weight of their lance was 50 tons (a couple tons under if you want to be exact). That IS balanced. That is basically the definition of balanced. We're looking at average weight here, matchmaking doesn't care about individual weights.

Game is broken if you can't take a 50 ton average lance into MM and come out with a balanced game.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Since no one wants to be forced to play a particular mech class, a better solution would be to weight elo scores by tonnage of the mech.

Matchmaker can't find a Medium to match with a Centurion? Toss in in a Catapult pilot who's Elo is roughly 30%* lower than that of the Centurion.

Of course, it is still an imperfect solution, A raven playing Alpine Conquest is more effective than a raven in Canyon Assault. But it is better than the current situation where 150+ ton differences is common.

*30% being the percentage difference in tonnage between a Cent and a Cat.

Edited by Eldragon, 02 June 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[BillyM]

Fate 6, on 02 June 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

The average weight of their lance was 50 tons (a couple tons under if you want to be exact). That IS balanced. That is basically the definition of balanced. We're looking at average weight here, matchmaking doesn't care about individual weights.

Game is broken if you can't take a 50 ton average lance into MM and come out with a balanced game.

So you suggest the average mech weight in current matches is 50-tons? Are you related to a certain H.Keller?

OP, to be scientific, launch with 1light, 1heavy, 2assault (as is the current "average") and I have $5 says you instantly get extremely well-matched tonnage. Then launch with 4 assaults just to show the opposite of your first, that now YOU are the over-weight team.

...crap science is crappy.

-billyM

Edited by BillyM, 02 June 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[ZonbiBadger]

RiceyFighter, on 01 June 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

I am a bit more worried about that the "Almost Guaranteed" win mech is the highlander poptars.

I see highlander poptarts eat it all the time. :/