38 replies to this topic

[MasterErrant]

it's another non fix. I agree that the proportionate heat of the ERPPC needs to be adjusted. but the real fix is still heat effects.

[blinkin]

MasterErrant, on 02 June 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

it's another non fix. I agree that the proportionate heat of the ERPPC needs to be adjusted. but the real fix is still heat effects.

this is part of the solution. there is no single change that will fix everything. some of the changes will fix more overall than others, like for example heat effects, but we shouldn't ignore the small adjustments either.

[The Cheese]

Voted no. PPC boats are snipers. They have plenty of time to cool off because they're usually miles away from the action. Increasing the heat will only hurt mechs that only carry one or two, or those who use them for brawling.

[Victor Morson]

Let's just fix the other freaking weapons before we talk anymore nerfs.

We all know once PGI swings the nerf hammer, we're screwed for months. If they nerf PPCs more and then fix missiles (wouldn't put it past them) all that is going to happen is that we will end up with nothing but, say, LRM/SRM boats.

And the cycle will continue. Then we'll all be here complaining that the new meta sucks because PPCs are so underpowered.

Very very very little needs nerfing right now. TONS need buffing. PGI needs to seriously open their eyes and look at what's going on here; their last Dev Answers makes it clear they aren't even remotely aware of what is actually going on here.

[Livewyr]

The Cheese, on 02 June 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

...or those who use them for brawling.

Brawling with a PPC...

I think the whole point of having LRMs have a minimum range, having Gauss Rifles be fragile personal detonation devices and having PPCs generating very high heat is to discourage them from being used for brawling..

Ranged weapons (GRs, PPCs, LRMs) have disadvantages in order to leave brawling to the brawling weapons. (ACs, SRMs, MLs..)

[LordBraxton]

PPCs are too damn good at brawling

raise dat heat!

my 4PPC cataphracts just wreck ****

[BluefireMW]

One heat is not enough it should be as much that a 6 ppc mech gets his shut down on 60 for 6 ppc and 90 heat shut down for 6 er ppc (10/15)
normal weapons are senseless... one assault lance with misery, cataphract and 2 highlander used 12 PPC/ER PPC and 4 Gauss shot all to pieces
soon there will be no other weapons, or no players except the one who love this kind of gameplay.

I know, the comperative to normal BattleTech is not the best we need and it's not Table Top, but perhaps the people who made that game, thought of something, to prevent what's happening to this game at present.

the 4s recycle was a good way, but.. it needs more then this, inclusive reduction of speed and less mobility if a mech gets to hot.

Edited by BluefireMW, 02 June 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Chrithu]

zorak ramone, on 02 June 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

This is a terrible idea.

Adding heat to the PPCs will hurt everyone EXCEPT for the jumpsnipers and stalker ridge-snipers. Jump snipers just drop to the ground and shut down/cool off when they overheat. Stalkers don't have to expose much of themselves in order to fire, so they don't have far to back down before shutting down/cooling off.

This will hurt mechs that try to use PPCs as part of balanced/mixed range configs, or any other mech (Atlas/Awesome) aside from highlanders, stalkers, and CTF-3Ds that try to snipe.

In short this change would do nothing to change the current GR/PPC dominated meta, other than actually making it worse by further limiting the usefulness of non top-tier mechs.

Agreed. In my view we should wait for the result of the anti-boating and anti-jumpsniping measures that were anounced. If there's still a problem after that we can talk about increasing heat.

The problem with such "simple" or "obvious" solutions is that they're often too generic and thus have collateral damages that make more tweaking necessary. Focusing on the actual problems (which are poptarts and 3+ PPC builds in this case) is much better than just nerfing a weapon to possible oblivion on a general basis.

[The Cheese]

Livewyr, on 02 June 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Brawling with a PPC...

Specifically, the ERPPC. I have a couple of builds that use just one to give them a bit more all-round utility. It allows them to support at long range and still have some punch in a knife fight. They need to be able to keep firing in order to perform with any kind of effectiveness. If the heat was increased, those builds would suffer, even though they're not the problem that people are complaining about. My 2xPPC 2x ERPPC Stalker wouldn't be affected much though, since it does all it's damage in one hit, then has time to cool off.

The other thing to remember is that nobody, but nobody uses a single PPC/ERPPC for dedicated sniping. It's just a waste of time. Even the stock long range support variants use at least two, and those are bad enough without being gimped by extra heat.

Edited by The Cheese, 02 June 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[p00k]

BillyM, on 02 June 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

+2 heat is a PGI-esque change, (25% BIG AND ALL AT ONCE!)

no, thats only 1 aspect

a pgi change would be +2 heat (or more, they've made >50% changes all at once several times), but also a change to projectile speed, and a change to recycle rate, and they'll also add splash damage and change item hp and make the damn things brownish-green, all in one patch. then they'll hotfix one or two of the changes the subsequent thursday/friday

[Mildiane]

Voted no.

Just add Heal penalties and buff SRMs/Medium chassis.

[Lupus Aurelius]

No, because it is not balance.

It gives ballistic mechs an unfair advantage. Ballistics are all pinpoint, and up to 1/3 lower heat than energy weapons.

PPCs are the only pinpoint energy weapon, with still the highest heat in the game, requiring significant crit space to fit enough heatsinks to even run close to the ability to sustain fire that ballistics have.

Kneejerk reactions due to a few boaters is not the solution. Re-evaluating the heat system, making hard caps on heat and heatsinks decreasing time to dissapate heat and thus allowing for actual double heatsinks, and crit restrictions to weapon placement such as 3 energy in a right torso, but only 6 energy crits, or 2 ballistics in an arm, but only 2 ballistic crits, is the solutions.

This would affect all mechs equally, and limit boating and high heat alpha builds, in a balanced way.

[Corvus Antaka]

this wont do much to dual gauss or dual ac 20 configs.

[MustrumRidcully]

I wonder how the meta would evolve if we had mechs with 12+ energy slots.
12 Medium Lasers bring the same a alpha and the same heat as 6 PPCs, but "only" at 270m and over a 1 second duration instead of instantenous, but it's at 2/7th the weight.

We don't have such mechs. We can make mechs that have 40 point damage alphas with medium lasers but the awesome is basically too slow and big and the Hunchback is too light. a 60 to 70 ton 12 medium laser mech...

Currently your chances of getting a solid 30+ damage alpha basically require Gauss, AC/20 or PPCs, otherwise you run out of hard points... And for the ballistic ones, you also have pretty much only 2 65 ton options.

[pow pow]

OP, I like what you are proposing as I reminisce the dozens pages worth of tears back in the day ppc's were nothing more than paperweight. My tear cup was hardly ever empty.

[Ralgas]

stalkers and awesomes will hurt, cataphracts, k2's, jaggers and highlanders will just start singing trololololol as they just keep on keeping on.......


It's why most of the balance suggestions are usually more complex. At best a few jumper builds will lose the jets to pack in heatsinks and ignore the heat raise, or use 1 less ppc

Edited by Ralgas, 02 June 2013 - 11:28 PM.

[Pater Mors]

I voted no.

Why change something that is simply a symptom of an underlying problem?

Dr House doesn't treat the symptoms. He treats the problem and the symptoms go away.

[bloodnor]

all that should happen is every time you overheat your heat sinks should have a -10% efficiency rating/damage. so over heat twice your heat management is the equivalent of loosing a heat sink or two. that would force people to control there heat or face the consequence.

PPC are not the problem its the no penalties for overheating on the alpha PPC BUILDS

[Lykaon]

At the core of this "issue" isn't a weapon balance or nerf X or Y solution.

What needs to be done is take a step back and examine not WHAT is causing problems but HOW.

Honestly changing PPCs now does nothing to alter the HOW it's only a brief solution to a WHAT and tomorrow the WHAT may be some other weapon or tactic.

Take a step back and find the actual common thread of the frequent complaints.I will paraphrase a bunch of familular thread subjects in a format to drive a point home.

"I just got killed in seconds flat by a PPC boat,nerf PPCs"
"I just got killed in seconds flat by a poptart,nerf poptarting"
"I just got killed in seconds flat by LRMs,nerf LRMs"
"I just got killed in seconds flat by a premade,nerf teamwork"

What is the obvious common thread? The time to kill is too short for these players.

Some of these complaints are from new players other from terminally horrible players and still more are from players who are familular with the game and have a solid grasp on playing it.

So if the core is the time to kill.What causes this to occur?HOW does it happen?

Clearly it is the ability to apply large concentrations of damage on targets under highly reliable circumstances.

Mechanics that contribute to this situation are...

Hardpoint mechanic: Allowing mech builds that have massive direct fire alpha strikes.

Convergence: Allowing all the firepower from a massive alpha strike to apply damage to one specific location.

Body locations and armor mechanics: Allow for the pinpoint accurate massive alpha strike to only need to deplete singular locations to destroy targets (head or CT depletion kills so all other armor locations are non factors)

Hit State Rewind: Allowing for highly accurate application of massive damage alpha strikes to specific body locations.

Obviously we want to keep Hit State Rewind.So that is off the table.
Most of the players want to retain mech customization so any changes there need to be carefully thought out.
Convergence ? I lack the insider knowlege to know exactally how this system works so I lack a realistic suggestion.

So I guess I'm saying we may want to dig to the deeper issue causing surface issues before we look to nerf a surface issue.