7 replies to this topic

[TLBFestus]

Not a new player, but I thought I should put this in the New Player forum in a thinly veiled attempt to minimize "noob" comments.

I've neve quite grasped the MWO implementation of Double heat sinks and I'm hoping someone will explain this.

DHS take up 3 slots each, and from what I've read have 1.4 times the cooling capacity of SHS. On the surface that doesn't make sense as you only get 1.4x cooling but use three slots. Why not place 3 SHS in those slots for more cooling?

What I suspect is meant by "1.4x" is that you get 1.4x the cooling capacity PER SLOT. In other words, if you used 3 SHS you'd have (to keep it simple) a cooling capacity of 3 in those three slots. With DHS, you'd get 1.4x per slot for a cooling capacity of 4.2 in the same number of slots.

Is this correct?


That way I can see them being more effective, unless you had a rare load-out that left multiple single or paired slots unoccupied. This would lower the total effectiveness of DHS because you couldn't fit them in these areas and SHS would.

[Redshift2k5]

A Double heatsink is 1.4 times as effective, takes 3 slots, but has the same weight (1 ton).

The majority of mechs have zero free tonnage but significant free space. If you have empty slots, in the majority of cases you are better off trading those empty slots for a space-consuming/weight-saving upgrade. DHS is not the only way to trade otherwise useless empty crit space for more weight, but it often has the biggest advantage.

A further fact of DHS is that the DHS built into the engine operate at 2.0 times the efficiency, cost no additional crit space and cost no additional weight.

DHS slotted into the engine (275 engines and higher can slot extra heatsinks beyond the first 10) come in at 1.4 efficiency, 1 ton, but do not cost the extra crit space (a 275 engine may hold 1 additional heatsink whether it is a 1-slot single or a 3-slot double)

Here is Smurfy's online mechab http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified Try to find a build that doesn't benefit from adding DHS to the mech.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 03 June 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[NinetyProof]

The only read drawback to the DHS is really the 3 slot requirement, and this is especially poignant where legs come into play ... since you don't have 3 slots free, you can't put them in the legs, meaning you don't get the extra dissipation from standing in water.

Outside of that, I don't know of a single reason, on any build, not to upgrade to DHS. There might be one build, somewhere, maybe, that uses SHS ... but that doesn't mean the build is good :-).

[scJazz]

Quoting from... http://mwomercs.com/...heat-threshold/

Quote

This is how heat works in MWO:
1. The 10 second turn is split into 10 1-second increments. Rather than decreasing heat by 1 every 10 seconds, a standard heat sink reduces it by 0.1 every second (0.2 or 0.14 for DHS depending on placement).
2. There is no penalty for heat until you reach the heat threshold, and that threshold can be overridden (but you take internal damage).
3. The hard heat threshold is (with standard heat sinks) 30 + the number of heat sinks or (with DHS) 30 + 2*engine heat sinks + 1.4*extra heat sinks.


This means an average light 'mech with a 250 engine and DHS has a heat threshold of 50.

The biggest boost is in the free Heat Threshold as you can see from the quote.

Edited by scJazz, 03 June 2013 - 12:07 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

NinetyProof, on 03 June 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

The only read drawback to the DHS is really the 3 slot requirement, and this is especially poignant where legs come into play ... since you don't have 3 slots free, you can't put them in the legs, meaning you don't get the extra dissipation from standing in water.

Outside of that, I don't know of a single reason, on any build, not to upgrade to DHS. There might be one build, somewhere, maybe, that uses SHS ... but that doesn't mean the build is good :-).

There are actually some builds that get more heat dissiption from SHS (primarily due to stuffing them into the legs), I think it's a specific type of Awesome build but I don't have the details.

[Xeno Phalcon]

In a nutshell here is the breakdown for DHS vs SHS

Main upside for DHS is it lets you mount less heat sinks in terms of weight, as most engines start off with 8-10 heat sinks in them by changing your mech to DHS you vastly boost your head managment capabilities and if that isnt enough, sense they weigh the same as normal heat sinks its not hard to fit in extras.

The downside is the large price tag to augment a chassy to allow for DHS to be mounted (1,500,000 c-bills, as much as a commando 1B nearly) and larger critical space. Being larger in terms of crit space causes them to have three issues: the first is as mentioned they cant be mounted in the legs so you cant take advantage of streams or ponds to get extra cooling (not that there are any sources of water on hilltops). They also are more likely to be destroyed in the event of armor breach, but generally if your heatsinks are getting exploded heat isnt your biggest issue anyways. The third is that you have less slots to work with overall when mounting extra DHS on your mech, generally speaking you can do DHS endo steel chassy and XL engine and pretty much wont have room for anything else. (And dont get me started about trying to fit all that and FF armor on there.)

For the most part unless your running a very cool mech, there are no practical reasons to avoid DHS unless you just cant foot the conversion bill.

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 03 June 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[A Man In A Can]

The only builds that don't need DHS at all are pure gauss or MG builds. If you have any other weapons, then you usually need DHS.

Like this specific build.

And it's 1.4x the cooling of a normal sink per external DHS. Not 1.4 cooling per slot. As mentioned, in-engine DHS operate at full 2.0 capacity.

Edited by CYBRN4CR, 03 June 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Koniving]

TLBFestus, on 03 June 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Original post.

There's a few specific things to note here.

• Double heatsinks increase your "Threshold" for heat as well -- something they do not do in tabletop. (Footnote^1)
  
• All double heatsinks placed in the engine are, in fact, DOUBLE heatsinks. Those not in the engine are 1.4x.
  
• Standard heatsinks raise threshold 1.0x per sink for x amount of points. Engine double heatsinks raise your threshold by 2.0x per sink. Non-engine doubles raise threshold 1.4x. Note the amount of points has not been told (or I don't know what it is). However it's 1x, 2x, and 1.4x said points depending on type of heatsink.
  
• Standard heatsinks turn into pure double heatsinks in water. So say you have standard sinks in your legs and you go in water. Bam, those heatsinks in your legs turn into double heatsinks. The more you submerge yourself, the more you can double each individual sink.
  
• 1.4 and double heatsinks turn into twice their cooling in water, but most mechs can't submerge this much except lights.
  
• You must bring yourself deep enough to submerge the crit slots your heatsink is in to double its cooling in water. Foot-mounted sinks are the easiest to double. The higher up in your crit list they are, the further you have to go. For example heatsinks in your left torso will cool based on if you can submerge its crit slot position into water. Those with XL engines must go deeper than standard engines, or so I gathered from the Dev explanation. Once the "heatsink" space of the engine submerges, all engine heatsinks 'double'. Double heatsinks? They become Quad heatsinks. This is in cooling dissipation only and NOT in threshold.
  
• Using controlled fire (don't fire everything at once, fire weapons in groups of two) you will not need double heatsinks. The default build of the Awesome 8V is a great example. Each weapon has a different range, and though you can combine weapons to do extra damage, under no circumstances would you ever fire every weapon at once. As such you will ~never~ have a heat issue. The same is true for the Atlas K so long as you only fire one to two weapons at a time. I run a lot of builds in trial/factory default for around 3,000 to once 14,000 (the Pretty Baby; zomg that is awesome in stock config; worst thing I ever did was upgrade the pilot tree because it's then too responsive) before I make any changes to them or upgrade the trees.
  
• Some loadouts actually get far more cooling from single heatsinks, due to being able to put twice the number of total heatsinks in. These are super rare.
  
• The heat system currently is messed up. Evidence. I should self destruct on the 13th shot if not sooner according to Megamek, and that's assuming I fire 5 at a time per 10 seconds with MM's installed tabletop rules. I pump out 30 PPCs back to back within far less time.

Footnotes:

^1 This is the reasoning behind the 1.4x boost and why things like 6 ER PPC stalkers can exist when in fact, in tabletop testing (via Megamek) the 6 PPC stalker with an XL 340 engine and more heatsinks than can be carried in MWO's Stalker will in several tested attempts from 0% heat, have a HIGH risk of A) excessive heat causing penalties in accuracy. B ) Roll for an ammo explosion which would happen EVERY TIME (never failed) but since no ammo, no explosion. C) Pilot losing consciousness due to heat. D) Mech losing balance and collapsing due to pilot losing consciousness, receiving as much as 50 points of damage from the fall. Out of several attempts, only once was the pilot able to maintain consciousness. The mech itself exploded, however.

Ending opinion: I think that like tabletop, we should have a standardized heat threshold. Whether universal or per mech. That way heatsinks can be what they are supposed to be; pure heat dissipation and not a cap-raiser. Whether I have 10 heatsinks or 44 standards, my heat cap should not rise. Only how fast that heat disappears. Also a standardized heatcap could allow for other benefits, for example a higher cap for standard heatsinks -- which would allow high alpha builds but at the cost of prolonged cooling -- where there's a lower cap for doubles which at all of them being true Double Heatsinks would still be vastly superior, but would instantly shut down a 6 ER PPC stalker on the first shot.

Edit: None of the text has been changed but according to Lordred, the test was with a 6 PPC stalker, NOT an ER PPC stalker. So a single firing with 6 standard ppcs produced repeated instances of losing consciousness, mechs falling over, and severe damage to the mech. This is with all heatsinks being True Double Heatsinks and a BIGGER than possible engine. Imagine what 6 ER PPCs would do to it?

Edit 2: Incomplete sentence or two. Clarified the Atlas K example.

Edited by Koniving, 03 June 2013 - 05:11 PM.