44 replies to this topic

[Sable Dove]

TL;DR: To make scouting more valuable, and give lights a more unique role, I suggest the following:
Decrease default sensor range to 600m.

Increase TAG range to 800m. Make the beam invisible to enemies.
Restrict TAG to dedicated hardpoints only on light/medium mechs.

Remove time limit on NARC. Increase range to 1000m. Increase projectile speed to 1000m/s.

Remove "Warning: Targeted" message.



Scouting is pointless without ECM, currently. If you can see them, they can see you, since sensor range is longer than TAG or NARC ranges. Scouts are virtually pointless because the game auto-targets enemies for the player at ranges that are longer than most weapons' effective ranges. Imagine if those 45-damage poptarts actually had to identify targets using (gasp!) their own eyes. Or if LRMs could actually be powerful because without scout support (or sacrificing power f, they can't be used for half of their range.

What if light mechs were usable as scouts without ECM?

Reasoning behind the changes:
Sensor range - Sniper weapons and LRMs tend to be more powerful than they ought to be. This is because the game identifies targets for the player at long ranges, and gives them a box around the target, allowing them to hit an enemy easily, even if they can't see them clearly.

By reducing sensor range, sniper weapons now either require scout support, or sensor suites (BAP and a module). It also frees up scouts to... be scouts, since they now have methods of identifying targets without being in sensor range.

TAG range - Just so that a scout can still outrange enemies with one sensor upgrade.
TAG beam - So that scouts don't have to broadcast their position to paint a target.
TAG hardpoints - So that sniper/LRM boat builds cannot make up for their own shortcomings by using TAG, since this would mean teamwork is still largely unnecessary.

NARC time limit - It's unnecessary, and makes NARC pointless to take, since it's so heavy, and takes a missile hardpoint. I'd also consider removing the damage limit instead, and dramatically increasing the time limit.
NARC range - Same reason as TAG, but even moreso, since it's much heavier/larger than TAG, and still has the limit(s) of damage or time. Plus, it requires a missile hardpoint, so it needs to replace a missile system of some kind, meaning it hurts boats quite a bit, and lights would have to give up an SSRM launcher.
NARC speed - So that it's a bit more reliable to hit enemies with.

"Warning: Targeted" message - This is just a terrible idea to begin with. it makes it impossible to be a real scout, because as soon as you identify a target, they know someone's looking at them, and will start looking for you.

These suggestions would help lights be scouts, instead of wannabe brawlers. Lights (and mediums, to an extent) would gain more power over the flow of the battle, ensuring that their team is not flanked, or ambushed, and doing a little pecking once the fight has started, rather than just waiting for the brawl (that never comes due to snipers ruling the game) and then being as annoying as possible, or just capping in Assault.

Or course, there are still quite a few other issues that plague the game, such as lack of heat penalties, super-easy aiming, SRMs being nerfed instead of SSRMs, LRM yo-yo, etc. This is just one idea to add some actual gameplay variety, and give lights a role other than 'ankle-biter'.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Traditional scouting does need a boost and some incentives to do so.
While It'll most likely be more common when 12v12 launches, it isnt very practical right now unless you have ECM and go faster than 140kph. I like these ideas, but as a person who doesn't pilot Lights, I cant really say I know much about it.

But NARC and TAG still need a boost. NARC especially.

[GroovYChickeN]

I agree but unless they rework the rewards system it would be all for not. There need to be a better mechanic in place that rewards lights for playing like lights.

[Deathlike]

Good cover usually negates the benefits of Advanced Sensor Range... so meh. I don't think 800m sensor range is the true problem TBH.

[Novakaine]

Yeah riiiiiiiight, all ecm is used for is to sneak up in an Atlas and alpha someone in the back.
Not the players fault though I must say.
If scouting had a real role this would not be a topic.

[Shalune]

Removing the speed cap will help with this immensely. Right now there are 0 pure scout builds in game, because even maximizing engine size leaves you with plenty of room for weapons. Once spiders are running around going ~50 kph faster than 3Ls we'll have a real difference between scouts and gun-toting lights.

[East Indy]

Unless I'm missing something, capturing points — even in Conquest matches — doesn't award nearly as many points as damage dealing. Reversing that is a great start on adding incentives to the role.

Can the devs get the game to recognize spotting and increase XP for kill assists? I bet they can.

[Ralgas]

no hamper to snipers as they tend to just camp choke points they can see. bap +adv sensor module is fine, as modules expand the choice will gravitate that way anyway. seismic is now much preferred over it already.

Scouting is still very relevant due to multiple covering approaches and larger maps, it's just forgotten due to effective fast communication and team play. Hopefully cw will fix that

[stjobe]

First off, "Scout" is a role, not a weight class; any 'mech can scout, it's not a lights-only role.

Secondly, there's little *need* for scouting on the small maps we have.

Last but not least, there's no incentive for scouting. If the game had a better reward structure, this wouldn't be a problem. The current reward system heavily favours assault and heavy 'mechs, and see where that has gotten us.

Edit: I'm just going to put this here: Dev Blog 4: Role Warfare (cont).

Read it and weep over what this game could have been.

Edited by stjobe, 03 June 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Active/Passive radar isn't in the game yet btw. And like was said, the game modes and maps offer very little incentive to scout. Light Mech warfare revolves around InfoStreakmation Warfare, and everything else is, man, I don't even know anymore.

[Asmudius Heng]

Just need passive and acrive sensors.

[Lumpypants]

light scouts benefit from ground sensors as well. We can get in there quickly to determine disposition and get out before the action warms up. Getting anyone to act on the intel is another matter....

[Goose]

East Indy, on 03 June 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Unless I'm missing something, capturing points — even in Conquest matches — doesn't award nearly as many points as damage dealing. Reversing that is a great start on adding incentives to the role.

Can the devs get the game to recognize spotting and increase XP for kill assists? I bet they can.

O_o No capping 'till all enemy units have a letter assigned to them?

[Shalune]

I think part of the problem you're seeing is the currently popular metagame being centered around heavy (read: slow) fire support. When teams are camping out on their side of the map in one of the few positions they can reach early on then, yes, scouting will not be nearly as valuable.

When things were in a better place that encouraged more maneuvering scouting was vital. If a handful of enemy assaults appear on your flank before you can reposition you're done.

[FupDup]

On a side note, I've always found it weird that you can detect a Commando or something from the same range that you can detect an Atlas. Shouldn't the smaller object have a smaller radar signature because of less surface area for the radar waves to bounce off of (this might also make missiles take longer to lock on to small targets)?

Edited by FupDup, 03 June 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Scouting was never useful, and never will be, because I can always take more sensors and electronics on my assaults than your light.

Without turning 'scout' mechs into worthless sinks for combat purposes, and removing electronics from assaults, this is how it's gonna remain.

[Asmudius Heng]

FupDup, on 03 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

On a side note, I've always found it weird that you can detect a Commando or something from the same range that you can detect an Atlas. Shouldn't the smaller object have a smaller radar signature because of less surface area for the radar waves to bounce off of (this might also make missiles take longer to lock on to small targets)?

I made a suggestion about that and more:

http://mwomercs.com/...s-side-effects/

[Zyllos]

Maybe sensor ranges should be different on a per mech basis?

Lighter mechs generally have longer sensor ranges while heavier ones have shorter ones. You can obviously have exceptions to the rule.

[Sephlock]

I agree with all of this, but only because I have already invested the horrifically high amount of GXP and c-bills required to get advanced sensor modules.

Also, this would turn all newbs into:

[cyberFluke]

Sable Dove, on 03 June 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

[snip]

Or course, there are still quite a few other issues that plague the game, such as lack of heat penalties, super-easy aiming, SRMs being nerfed instead of SSRMs, LRM yo-yo, etc. This is just one idea to add some actual gameplay variety, and give lights a role other than 'ankle-biter'.

Good post. While the whole raft of "issues" are preventing the promised scouting role, your ideas are all sound and I agree almost entirely. I think Zylolos is onto something with different sensor ranges for different mechs. Once streaks are no longer broken, the Raven will be a pretty weak mech barring the ECM version and the Commando is already trash fodder, giving them stronger sensors would make "game sense". While I'm on, the non-ECM spiders need something, frankly, they're utter pointless sh!te as they stand.