General Taskeen, on 05 June 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:
Can anyone guess which technical specification is which? 
Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 June 2013 - 02:35 AM.
2
Mgs Are Still Bad!
Started by WolvesX, Jun 04 2013 12:09 PM
111 replies to this topic
#83
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 04:20 AM
Does anyone even care the MGs were meant to be useless vs. mechs and that they were equipped for the basic purpose of taking on infantry. heck they weren't even meant as anti-vehicle. and unarmored infantry was their main purpose at that. Not that I care one way or the other. Just thinking your taking this MG thing a little too far. Next we will have ac2s shooting down high altitude air planes.
#84
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 05:40 AM
Well now its time to make you all eat crow about MG's and I'll use what you have posted to prove this. First let's post of some facts and I'll highlight some importain words in them for you.
"The Piranha's main threat is its twelve Series XII Rotary Machine Guns. These are a serious threat on such a speedy 'Mech to any foe, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack, and such a large array allows a Piranha to chew through an opponent's rear armor almost instantly. They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3 ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles."
A "Star" of Piranhas is "5" mechs, so if 5 Piranhas were to fire on the rear armor of a mech at the same time that would be a total of 60 MG's + 15 ERML's and 5 ERSML's yep rear armor "instantly gone". However, their primary role was to kill infantry which is why they were deployed into the enemys rear area.
"The Spider was originally designed by Newhart Industries as a 'Mech to be used by SLDF commando forces. Following the fall of the Star League, the Free Worlds League acquired the plans for the 'Mech and Nimakachi began producing it. The League was not interested in the design, so they began exporting it to an interested Draconis Combine. Eventually, they also began to produce it on their Lapida II plant. The 'Mech gets its name from the unique pattern on its chest that radiates from the Medium Laser mounts in its center torso. The Spider is one of the most maneuverable BattleMechs ever conceived. It has a ground speed that is comparable to a Locust and can out jump either the vaunted Wasp or Stinger light 'Mechs. Spiders are generally used as fast strike forces to hit an enemy's rear with lightning speed."
SDR-5D - The -5D Spider is also geared towards anti-infantry work.
SDR-5K - The -5K Spider removes one of the Medium Lasers and replaces it with two arm mounted Machine Guns for anti-infantry use." "
As you can see above the Spider was designed primarly for scouting and anti-infantry use in the enemy's rear area. We can also see here how machine guns are being mounted on the Mech for "anti-infantry use".
CPLT-K2 - Breaking the mold of the Catapult, this House Kurita model removes the LRM-15 launchers and replaces them with two PPCs, allowing the Catapult to act as a direct fire support 'Mech and take a more active role in front line combat. The 'Mech mounts five additional single heat sinks to help dissipate the added heat from the PPCs and two Machine Guns to deter infantry attacks. Space is made by removing the jump jets and two of the medium lasers."
K2 mounted MG's to "deter infantry attacks" not Mech attacks.
"VTR-9A1 - A modification of the 9A model, the 9A1 adds only two Machine Guns to the 'Mech for anti-infantry use. The 'Mech has ten tons of armor, making it better protected then the 9A Model and the two Machine Guns allow the 'Mech to have excellent anti-infantry combat capabilities."
Again we see MG's being mounted for "anti-infantry" capabilities.
"Description
The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs. Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire, though they are more commonly found on Combat Vehicles and ProtoMechs. These weapons are much heavier than those typically carried by infantry, but can be used by them when placed on a static mount, where they are called Support Machine Guns. Battle Armor can also carry machine guns, typically upgraded versions of infantry-support weapons, which can rival their larger vehicular-scale cousins.
Beyond the "standard" models Clan Smoke Jaguar was the first to create Light Machine Guns and Heavy Machine Guns, which the other Clans and the Inner Sphere eventually fielded as well. The Federated Suns were also the first to mount multiple machine guns on the same linked platform creating the Machine Gun Array."
Here we can see that the Battletech description of MG's tells us that it is an anti-infantry weapon but, it still being effective at damaging BattleMech.
Which by that way it does currently in MWO. And in fact after testing done in the training grounds I can comfirm that it does indeed do the correct Batteltech TT damage of 2 per 10 sec turn. But since MWO doubled the armor factors for their game they also double the MG's damage to 4 damage per 10 sec turn. This can be seen by any of you by just dropping into the training grounds with one MG and 1 ton of ammo and shoot the leg of the Commando until its distoryed which takes 40 sec's to do which equals 16 points of damage.
You see you all forgot the one over riding problem, you forgot that a MG's does damage over time (DOT) and that time period is ten seconds of "constant fire with all rounds hitting the target" to do that 2 points for damage (or as tested for MWO 4 points of damage). The AC-2 fires just one round in a ten sec turn that does 2 points of damage so trying to compair it to the MG is like apples and oranges.
Here ends the lession, so....how would you like your crow now? Grilled or fried?
"The Piranha's main threat is its twelve Series XII Rotary Machine Guns. These are a serious threat on such a speedy 'Mech to any foe, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack, and such a large array allows a Piranha to chew through an opponent's rear armor almost instantly. They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3 ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles."
A "Star" of Piranhas is "5" mechs, so if 5 Piranhas were to fire on the rear armor of a mech at the same time that would be a total of 60 MG's + 15 ERML's and 5 ERSML's yep rear armor "instantly gone". However, their primary role was to kill infantry which is why they were deployed into the enemys rear area.
"The Spider was originally designed by Newhart Industries as a 'Mech to be used by SLDF commando forces. Following the fall of the Star League, the Free Worlds League acquired the plans for the 'Mech and Nimakachi began producing it. The League was not interested in the design, so they began exporting it to an interested Draconis Combine. Eventually, they also began to produce it on their Lapida II plant. The 'Mech gets its name from the unique pattern on its chest that radiates from the Medium Laser mounts in its center torso. The Spider is one of the most maneuverable BattleMechs ever conceived. It has a ground speed that is comparable to a Locust and can out jump either the vaunted Wasp or Stinger light 'Mechs. Spiders are generally used as fast strike forces to hit an enemy's rear with lightning speed."
SDR-5D - The -5D Spider is also geared towards anti-infantry work.
SDR-5K - The -5K Spider removes one of the Medium Lasers and replaces it with two arm mounted Machine Guns for anti-infantry use." "
As you can see above the Spider was designed primarly for scouting and anti-infantry use in the enemy's rear area. We can also see here how machine guns are being mounted on the Mech for "anti-infantry use".
CPLT-K2 - Breaking the mold of the Catapult, this House Kurita model removes the LRM-15 launchers and replaces them with two PPCs, allowing the Catapult to act as a direct fire support 'Mech and take a more active role in front line combat. The 'Mech mounts five additional single heat sinks to help dissipate the added heat from the PPCs and two Machine Guns to deter infantry attacks. Space is made by removing the jump jets and two of the medium lasers."
K2 mounted MG's to "deter infantry attacks" not Mech attacks.
"VTR-9A1 - A modification of the 9A model, the 9A1 adds only two Machine Guns to the 'Mech for anti-infantry use. The 'Mech has ten tons of armor, making it better protected then the 9A Model and the two Machine Guns allow the 'Mech to have excellent anti-infantry combat capabilities."
Again we see MG's being mounted for "anti-infantry" capabilities.
"Description
The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs. Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire, though they are more commonly found on Combat Vehicles and ProtoMechs. These weapons are much heavier than those typically carried by infantry, but can be used by them when placed on a static mount, where they are called Support Machine Guns. Battle Armor can also carry machine guns, typically upgraded versions of infantry-support weapons, which can rival their larger vehicular-scale cousins.
Beyond the "standard" models Clan Smoke Jaguar was the first to create Light Machine Guns and Heavy Machine Guns, which the other Clans and the Inner Sphere eventually fielded as well. The Federated Suns were also the first to mount multiple machine guns on the same linked platform creating the Machine Gun Array."
Here we can see that the Battletech description of MG's tells us that it is an anti-infantry weapon but, it still being effective at damaging BattleMech.
Which by that way it does currently in MWO. And in fact after testing done in the training grounds I can comfirm that it does indeed do the correct Batteltech TT damage of 2 per 10 sec turn. But since MWO doubled the armor factors for their game they also double the MG's damage to 4 damage per 10 sec turn. This can be seen by any of you by just dropping into the training grounds with one MG and 1 ton of ammo and shoot the leg of the Commando until its distoryed which takes 40 sec's to do which equals 16 points of damage.
You see you all forgot the one over riding problem, you forgot that a MG's does damage over time (DOT) and that time period is ten seconds of "constant fire with all rounds hitting the target" to do that 2 points for damage (or as tested for MWO 4 points of damage). The AC-2 fires just one round in a ten sec turn that does 2 points of damage so trying to compair it to the MG is like apples and oranges.
Here ends the lession, so....how would you like your crow now? Grilled or fried?
#85
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:11 AM
If anyone needs to understand why or how a 1.5 ton machinegun could possibly do damage to an enemy mech please refer to the following:
http://en.wikipedia....i/GAU-8_Avenger
Canon doesn't matter here. it's a weapon in the game and it needs to be viable. That link is a fair, real world analog to the MW machinegun based on tonnage and usage. In fact, it's roughly 1 ton lighter without ammo than the MW machinegun.
The AC-2 does not fire just one round in a ten second turn in MWO. Your argument makes very little sense.
http://en.wikipedia....i/GAU-8_Avenger
Canon doesn't matter here. it's a weapon in the game and it needs to be viable. That link is a fair, real world analog to the MW machinegun based on tonnage and usage. In fact, it's roughly 1 ton lighter without ammo than the MW machinegun.
CutterWolf, on 06 June 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:
Well now its time to make you all eat crow about MG's and I'll use what you have posted to prove this. First let's post of some facts and I'll highlight some importain words in them for you.
"The Piranha's main threat is its twelve Series XII Rotary Machine Guns. These are a serious threat on such a speedy 'Mech to any foe, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack, and such a large array allows a Piranha to chew through an opponent's rear armor almost instantly. They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3 ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles."
A "Star" of Piranhas is "5" mechs, so if 5 Piranhas were to fire on the rear armor of a mech at the same time that would be a total of 60 MG's + 15 ERML's and 5 ERSML's yep rear armor "instantly gone". However, their primary role was to kill infantry which is why they were deployed into the enemys rear area.
"The Spider was originally designed by Newhart Industries as a 'Mech to be used by SLDF commando forces. Following the fall of the Star League, the Free Worlds League acquired the plans for the 'Mech and Nimakachi began producing it. The League was not interested in the design, so they began exporting it to an interested Draconis Combine. Eventually, they also began to produce it on their Lapida II plant. The 'Mech gets its name from the unique pattern on its chest that radiates from the Medium Laser mounts in its center torso. The Spider is one of the most maneuverable BattleMechs ever conceived. It has a ground speed that is comparable to a Locust and can out jump either the vaunted Wasp or Stinger light 'Mechs. Spiders are generally used as fast strike forces to hit an enemy's rear with lightning speed."
SDR-5D - The -5D Spider is also geared towards anti-infantry work.
SDR-5K - The -5K Spider removes one of the Medium Lasers and replaces it with two arm mounted Machine Guns for anti-infantry use." "
As you can see above the Spider was designed primarly for scouting and anti-infantry use in the enemy's rear area. We can also see here how machine guns are being mounted on the Mech for "anti-infantry use".
CPLT-K2 - Breaking the mold of the Catapult, this House Kurita model removes the LRM-15 launchers and replaces them with two PPCs, allowing the Catapult to act as a direct fire support 'Mech and take a more active role in front line combat. The 'Mech mounts five additional single heat sinks to help dissipate the added heat from the PPCs and two Machine Guns to deter infantry attacks. Space is made by removing the jump jets and two of the medium lasers."
K2 mounted MG's to "deter infantry attacks" not Mech attacks.
"VTR-9A1 - A modification of the 9A model, the 9A1 adds only two Machine Guns to the 'Mech for anti-infantry use. The 'Mech has ten tons of armor, making it better protected then the 9A Model and the two Machine Guns allow the 'Mech to have excellent anti-infantry combat capabilities."
Again we see MG's being mounted for "anti-infantry" capabilities.
"Description
The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs. Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire, though they are more commonly found on Combat Vehicles and ProtoMechs. These weapons are much heavier than those typically carried by infantry, but can be used by them when placed on a static mount, where they are called Support Machine Guns. Battle Armor can also carry machine guns, typically upgraded versions of infantry-support weapons, which can rival their larger vehicular-scale cousins.
Beyond the "standard" models Clan Smoke Jaguar was the first to create Light Machine Guns and Heavy Machine Guns, which the other Clans and the Inner Sphere eventually fielded as well. The Federated Suns were also the first to mount multiple machine guns on the same linked platform creating the Machine Gun Array."
Here we can see that the Battletech description of MG's tells us that it is an anti-infantry weapon but, it still being effective at damaging BattleMech.
Which by that way it does currently in MWO. And in fact after testing done in the training grounds I can comfirm that it does indeed do the correct Batteltech TT damage of 2 per 10 sec turn. But since MWO doubled the armor factors for their game they also double the MG's damage to 4 damage per 10 sec turn. This can be seen by any of you by just dropping into the training grounds with one MG and 1 ton of ammo and shoot the leg of the Commando until its distoryed which takes 40 sec's to do which equals 16 points of damage.
You see you all forgot the one over riding problem, you forgot that a MG's does damage over time (DOT) and that time period is ten seconds of "constant fire with all rounds hitting the target" to do that 2 points for damage (or as tested for MWO 4 points of damage). The AC-2 fires just one round in a ten sec turn that does 2 points of damage so trying to compair it to the MG is like apples and oranges.
Here ends the lession, so....how would you like your crow now? Grilled or fried?
"The Piranha's main threat is its twelve Series XII Rotary Machine Guns. These are a serious threat on such a speedy 'Mech to any foe, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack, and such a large array allows a Piranha to chew through an opponent's rear armor almost instantly. They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3 ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles."
A "Star" of Piranhas is "5" mechs, so if 5 Piranhas were to fire on the rear armor of a mech at the same time that would be a total of 60 MG's + 15 ERML's and 5 ERSML's yep rear armor "instantly gone". However, their primary role was to kill infantry which is why they were deployed into the enemys rear area.
"The Spider was originally designed by Newhart Industries as a 'Mech to be used by SLDF commando forces. Following the fall of the Star League, the Free Worlds League acquired the plans for the 'Mech and Nimakachi began producing it. The League was not interested in the design, so they began exporting it to an interested Draconis Combine. Eventually, they also began to produce it on their Lapida II plant. The 'Mech gets its name from the unique pattern on its chest that radiates from the Medium Laser mounts in its center torso. The Spider is one of the most maneuverable BattleMechs ever conceived. It has a ground speed that is comparable to a Locust and can out jump either the vaunted Wasp or Stinger light 'Mechs. Spiders are generally used as fast strike forces to hit an enemy's rear with lightning speed."
SDR-5D - The -5D Spider is also geared towards anti-infantry work.
SDR-5K - The -5K Spider removes one of the Medium Lasers and replaces it with two arm mounted Machine Guns for anti-infantry use." "
As you can see above the Spider was designed primarly for scouting and anti-infantry use in the enemy's rear area. We can also see here how machine guns are being mounted on the Mech for "anti-infantry use".
CPLT-K2 - Breaking the mold of the Catapult, this House Kurita model removes the LRM-15 launchers and replaces them with two PPCs, allowing the Catapult to act as a direct fire support 'Mech and take a more active role in front line combat. The 'Mech mounts five additional single heat sinks to help dissipate the added heat from the PPCs and two Machine Guns to deter infantry attacks. Space is made by removing the jump jets and two of the medium lasers."
K2 mounted MG's to "deter infantry attacks" not Mech attacks.
"VTR-9A1 - A modification of the 9A model, the 9A1 adds only two Machine Guns to the 'Mech for anti-infantry use. The 'Mech has ten tons of armor, making it better protected then the 9A Model and the two Machine Guns allow the 'Mech to have excellent anti-infantry combat capabilities."
Again we see MG's being mounted for "anti-infantry" capabilities.
"Description
The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs. Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire, though they are more commonly found on Combat Vehicles and ProtoMechs. These weapons are much heavier than those typically carried by infantry, but can be used by them when placed on a static mount, where they are called Support Machine Guns. Battle Armor can also carry machine guns, typically upgraded versions of infantry-support weapons, which can rival their larger vehicular-scale cousins.
Beyond the "standard" models Clan Smoke Jaguar was the first to create Light Machine Guns and Heavy Machine Guns, which the other Clans and the Inner Sphere eventually fielded as well. The Federated Suns were also the first to mount multiple machine guns on the same linked platform creating the Machine Gun Array."
Here we can see that the Battletech description of MG's tells us that it is an anti-infantry weapon but, it still being effective at damaging BattleMech.
Which by that way it does currently in MWO. And in fact after testing done in the training grounds I can comfirm that it does indeed do the correct Batteltech TT damage of 2 per 10 sec turn. But since MWO doubled the armor factors for their game they also double the MG's damage to 4 damage per 10 sec turn. This can be seen by any of you by just dropping into the training grounds with one MG and 1 ton of ammo and shoot the leg of the Commando until its distoryed which takes 40 sec's to do which equals 16 points of damage.
You see you all forgot the one over riding problem, you forgot that a MG's does damage over time (DOT) and that time period is ten seconds of "constant fire with all rounds hitting the target" to do that 2 points for damage (or as tested for MWO 4 points of damage). The AC-2 fires just one round in a ten sec turn that does 2 points of damage so trying to compair it to the MG is like apples and oranges.
Here ends the lession, so....how would you like your crow now? Grilled or fried?
The AC-2 does not fire just one round in a ten second turn in MWO. Your argument makes very little sense.
Edited by MoarDakka, 06 June 2013 - 06:12 AM.
#86
Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:12 AM
I have said it on more than one occasion. The GAU-8 is an Auto Cannon not a Machine Gun. It is a kick as video though.
Even says so in your Wiki description.
Quote
The General Electric GAU-8/A Avenger is a 30 mm hydraulically-driven seven-barrel Gatling-type cannon that is typically mounted to the United States Air Force's Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II. Designed specifically for the anti-tank role, the Avenger delivers very powerful rounds at a high rate of fire. The General Electric GAU-8/A Avenger is also mounted to the Goalkeeper CIWS.
Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 June 2013 - 06:15 AM.
#87
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:16 AM
I guess that means it is my turn now to post the list of weapons that are canonically listed as Machine Guns:
For example, the Scorpion, a 25 ton Combat Vehicle, is armed with
Deleon Autocannon/5 and 20mm Gatling Machine Gun
The Machine Gun is manufactured on the following planets:[/b] [b]Brand Planet Company[/b] [b]Gatling Gun 20mm Ares Quikscell Company[/b] [b]Gatling Gun 20mm Layover Quikscell Company[/b] [b]Gatling Gun 20mm Kalidasa Quikscell Company[/b] [b]Gatling Gun 20mm Gallery Quikscell Company[/b] [b]Armstrong MiniGun Ramora United Outworlders Corporation[/b] [b]Blackwell B75 Outreach Blackwell Heavy Industries[/b] [b]Bulldog Minigun Ingersoll Bulldog Enterprises[/b] [b]Bulldog Minigun Proserpina Bulldog Enterprises[/b] [b]Double-Gun New Avalon Achernar BattleMechs[/b] [b]Coventry Light Autogun Coventry Coventry Metal Works[/b] [b]GM MiniGun Salem General Motors[/b] [b]Johnston MiniGun New Syrtis Johnston Industries[/b] [b]Kicker Skye Cyclops Incorporated[/b] [b]LFN Linblad Grand Base Earthwerks Incorporated[/b] [b]LFN Linblad Tematagi Nimakachi Fusion Products Limited[/b] [b]LFN Linblad Wallis Ronin Incorporated[/b] [b]LFN Linblad Illiushin Vandenberg Mechanized Industries[/b] [b]MainFire MiniGun Belladonna Cal-Boeing of Dorwinion[/b] [b]Maxi Mini Menke Ceres Metals Industries[/b] [b]Mydron Mini-Gun Bithinia Bithinian Ballistics[/b] [b]ScatterGun Light New Earth New Earth Trading Company[/b] [b]SperryBrowning Hun Ho LexaTech Industries[/b] [b]SperryBrowning Canopus IV Majesty Metals and Manufacturing[/b] [b]SperryBrowning Indicass Ceres Metals Industries[/b] [b]SperryBrowning MacLeod's Land Pinard Protectorates Limited[/b] [b]SureFire MiniGun Coventry Coventry Metal Works[/b] [b]SureFire MiniGun Pandora Red Devil Industries[/b] [b]Voelkers 200 Stewart Corean Enterprises[/b] [b]Voelkers 200 Pinard Vandenberg Mechanized Industries[b]
For example, the Scorpion, a 25 ton Combat Vehicle, is armed with
Deleon Autocannon/5 and 20mm Gatling Machine Gun
Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 June 2013 - 06:22 AM.
#88
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:17 AM
All right, are we citing fluff text now to make our arguments?
Well I can do that too. Here's a single vehicle-mounted MG taking out a Wasp. It doesn't get much more canon than Decision at Thunder Rift:
"The machine gun mounted on the pintle between the driver's seat and the observer's position was standard military issue, a belt-fed chopper with a cyclic rate of 1500 rounds per minute. Its grip was familiar in Grayson's hand as he checked the ammo feed. It was one of the weapons given to the Sarghad Militia by Carlyle's Commandos when the Lance arrived to bolster Trellwan's defenses.
The hovercraft was still drifting sideways when he opened fire at the 'Mech sprawled in rubble and still-falling debris, and he had to track back to stay on target. At 20 meters, Grayson could scarcely miss. Keeping the machine gun centered on the fallen giant's head, he held down the trigger until the pulsing roar filled his ears and pounded at his hands with demon fury. Hot brass cartridges sprayed from the ejection port to fall clinking on the deck at Grayson's feet.
Heavy caliber rounds splintered and sparked across the 'Mech's shoulders and head. Grayson knew the armor on the Wasp's head was thin. There was scant room in that small, squat box for the pilot, let alone room enough heavy armor. The 'Mech tried to rise, but when the rubble shifted under its feet, it collapsed again, sliding down into the street. Piercing rounds of fire hammered and chattered as Grayson played short bursts across the machine's head. Successive rounds sought out a *****, and sent it flying in pieces that caught the sunlight as they splattered. The twin antennae on one side of the 'Mech's head were already gone, chopped away by Grayson's relentless stream of high-velocity metal.
The 'Mech slid, rolled, brought its arms underneath it. The laser lay nearby, jarred from the monster's grasp when it fell. Grayson saw the Wasp's head swinging up, searching for the weapon, as he continued burst upon burst of fire at the machine's armor.
Then the Wasp was up and moving with unexpected speed, rushing the hovercraft with gauntleted hands outstretched. Suddenly, the monster was so close Grayson could no longer angle his gun high enough to keep it trained on the head. An armored fist swung up, plunged...
Grayson lunged across the seat and yanked the hovercraft's control slick to the side, sending the machine in a slithering glide, skimming sideways across the crater by the Palace Grounds fence and into the ruin of the Palace Garden. The 'Mech recovered from its missed swing and followed, but clumsily. The pounding from the machine gun must have rattled the pilot, might even have injured him. Letting the craft's momentum carry it crabwise up the blue slope, Grayson crouched behind the machine gun again and opened fire. Bullets smashed against the scanner plate, and the charging 'Mech staggered as though wounded, stopped, and narrowly missed falling again.
There were soldiers around Grayson, he realized, brown-uniformed Militia and a sprinkling of richly-clad Guardsmen, dirty-faced and ragged but with a growing determination in their faces. They were armed only with personal weapons, but were adding the volume of their firepower to the metal hosing from Grayson's machine gun. Kai Griffith had been right The troops had responded to someone taking action. His single-handed duel with the BattleMech had rallied them, and they were forming up on his defensive line.
"The head!" He found himself screaming," his voice burned raw with the effort. "Aim for the head!"
There was a flash and a deep-throated explosion as a grenade detonated in black smoke and dirt by the 'Mech's foot. The Wasp fell, dropping to hands and knees with a clatter of armor and mass. It left raw dirt grooves in the blue sward where it moved. Grayson leaned over and adjusted the drift of his vehicle, sending it in a slow glide toward the downed 'Mech. Then he straightened up, took careful aim, and ripped out another long, rolling burst of machine gun fire.
Armor splintered, fragmenting, flashing in the air about the head of the stricken battle machine. Bullets were penetrating the head now, smashing into the cockpit and riddling it through and through. The BattleMech sagged and collapsed, face down in a junkyard heap, its metal elbows and feet akimbo, pointed at unnatural angles into the sky. Bright red blood trickled from jagged rents in the shattered cockpit."
- Decision at Thunder Rift, chapter 12
Well I can do that too. Here's a single vehicle-mounted MG taking out a Wasp. It doesn't get much more canon than Decision at Thunder Rift:
"The machine gun mounted on the pintle between the driver's seat and the observer's position was standard military issue, a belt-fed chopper with a cyclic rate of 1500 rounds per minute. Its grip was familiar in Grayson's hand as he checked the ammo feed. It was one of the weapons given to the Sarghad Militia by Carlyle's Commandos when the Lance arrived to bolster Trellwan's defenses.
The hovercraft was still drifting sideways when he opened fire at the 'Mech sprawled in rubble and still-falling debris, and he had to track back to stay on target. At 20 meters, Grayson could scarcely miss. Keeping the machine gun centered on the fallen giant's head, he held down the trigger until the pulsing roar filled his ears and pounded at his hands with demon fury. Hot brass cartridges sprayed from the ejection port to fall clinking on the deck at Grayson's feet.
Heavy caliber rounds splintered and sparked across the 'Mech's shoulders and head. Grayson knew the armor on the Wasp's head was thin. There was scant room in that small, squat box for the pilot, let alone room enough heavy armor. The 'Mech tried to rise, but when the rubble shifted under its feet, it collapsed again, sliding down into the street. Piercing rounds of fire hammered and chattered as Grayson played short bursts across the machine's head. Successive rounds sought out a *****, and sent it flying in pieces that caught the sunlight as they splattered. The twin antennae on one side of the 'Mech's head were already gone, chopped away by Grayson's relentless stream of high-velocity metal.
The 'Mech slid, rolled, brought its arms underneath it. The laser lay nearby, jarred from the monster's grasp when it fell. Grayson saw the Wasp's head swinging up, searching for the weapon, as he continued burst upon burst of fire at the machine's armor.
Then the Wasp was up and moving with unexpected speed, rushing the hovercraft with gauntleted hands outstretched. Suddenly, the monster was so close Grayson could no longer angle his gun high enough to keep it trained on the head. An armored fist swung up, plunged...
Grayson lunged across the seat and yanked the hovercraft's control slick to the side, sending the machine in a slithering glide, skimming sideways across the crater by the Palace Grounds fence and into the ruin of the Palace Garden. The 'Mech recovered from its missed swing and followed, but clumsily. The pounding from the machine gun must have rattled the pilot, might even have injured him. Letting the craft's momentum carry it crabwise up the blue slope, Grayson crouched behind the machine gun again and opened fire. Bullets smashed against the scanner plate, and the charging 'Mech staggered as though wounded, stopped, and narrowly missed falling again.
There were soldiers around Grayson, he realized, brown-uniformed Militia and a sprinkling of richly-clad Guardsmen, dirty-faced and ragged but with a growing determination in their faces. They were armed only with personal weapons, but were adding the volume of their firepower to the metal hosing from Grayson's machine gun. Kai Griffith had been right The troops had responded to someone taking action. His single-handed duel with the BattleMech had rallied them, and they were forming up on his defensive line.
"The head!" He found himself screaming," his voice burned raw with the effort. "Aim for the head!"
There was a flash and a deep-throated explosion as a grenade detonated in black smoke and dirt by the 'Mech's foot. The Wasp fell, dropping to hands and knees with a clatter of armor and mass. It left raw dirt grooves in the blue sward where it moved. Grayson leaned over and adjusted the drift of his vehicle, sending it in a slow glide toward the downed 'Mech. Then he straightened up, took careful aim, and ripped out another long, rolling burst of machine gun fire.
Armor splintered, fragmenting, flashing in the air about the head of the stricken battle machine. Bullets were penetrating the head now, smashing into the cockpit and riddling it through and through. The BattleMech sagged and collapsed, face down in a junkyard heap, its metal elbows and feet akimbo, pointed at unnatural angles into the sky. Bright red blood trickled from jagged rents in the shattered cockpit."
- Decision at Thunder Rift, chapter 12
Edited by stjobe, 06 June 2013 - 06:18 AM.
#89
Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:22 AM
MustrumRidcully, on 06 June 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:
I guess that means it is my turn now to post the list of weapons that are canonically listed as Machine Guns:
For example, the Scorpion, a 25 ton Combat Vehicle, is armed with
Deleon Autocannon/5 and 20mm Gatling Machine Gun
[/b][/b] [b][b]The Machine Gun is manufactured on the following planets:[/b][/b] [b][b]Brand Planet Company[/b][/b] [b][b]Gatling Gun 20mm Ares Quikscell Company[/b][/b] [b][b]Gatling Gun 20mm Layover Quikscell Company[/b][/b] [b][b]Gatling Gun 20mm Kalidasa Quikscell Company[/b][/b] [b][b]Gatling Gun 20mm Gallery Quikscell Company[/b][/b] [b][b]Armstrong MiniGun Ramora United Outworlders Corporation[/b][/b] [b][b]Blackwell B75 Outreach Blackwell Heavy Industries[/b][/b] [b][b]Bulldog Minigun Ingersoll Bulldog Enterprises[/b][/b] [b][b]Bulldog Minigun Proserpina Bulldog Enterprises[/b][/b] [b][b]Double-Gun New Avalon Achernar BattleMechs[/b][/b] [b][b]Coventry Light Autogun Coventry Coventry Metal Works[/b][/b] [b][b]GM MiniGun Salem General Motors[/b][/b] [b][b]Johnston MiniGun New Syrtis Johnston Industries[/b][/b] [b][b]Kicker Skye Cyclops Incorporated[/b][/b] [b][b]LFN Linblad Grand Base Earthwerks Incorporated[/b][/b] [b][b]LFN Linblad Tematagi Nimakachi Fusion Products Limited[/b][/b] [b][b]LFN Linblad Wallis Ronin Incorporated[/b][/b] [b][b]LFN Linblad Illiushin Vandenberg Mechanized Industries[/b][/b] [b][b]MainFire MiniGun Belladonna Cal-Boeing of Dorwinion[/b][/b] [b][b]Maxi Mini Menke Ceres Metals Industries[/b][/b] [b][b]Mydron Mini-Gun Bithinia Bithinian Ballistics[/b][/b] [b][b]ScatterGun Light New Earth New Earth Trading Company[/b][/b] [b][b]SperryBrowning Hun Ho LexaTech Industries[/b][/b] [b][b]SperryBrowning Canopus IV Majesty Metals and Manufacturing[/b][/b] [b][b]SperryBrowning Indicass Ceres Metals Industries[/b][/b] [b][b]SperryBrowning MacLeod's Land Pinard Protectorates Limited[/b][/b] [b][b]SureFire MiniGun Coventry Coventry Metal Works[/b][/b] [b][b]SureFire MiniGun Pandora Red Devil Industries[/b][/b] [b][b]Voelkers 200 Stewart Corean Enterprises[/b][/b] [b][b]Voelkers 200 Pinard Vandenberg Mechanized Industries[/b][/b] [b][b]
For example, the Scorpion, a 25 ton Combat Vehicle, is armed with
Deleon Autocannon/5 and 20mm Gatling Machine Gun
Right... 20 mm or less=Machine Gun. GAU-8=30mm thus Auto Cannon.
#90
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:33 AM
The GAU is technically a gatling gun. And the point was to present a weapon with roughly the same tonnage, used in the reals life, that is used for anti armor applications. For 1.5 tons the machinegun needs to be better than what it is.
And don't get hung up on naming conventions. The primary weapon on an Abrams is also called a cannon but it doesn't fire ten thousand rounds a minute. If it's easier on everyone then PGI can rename the damn thing, give it appropiate damage output and everyone can go about their merry business of boating 6 ERPPC stalkers and masturbating to their KDR.
And don't get hung up on naming conventions. The primary weapon on an Abrams is also called a cannon but it doesn't fire ten thousand rounds a minute. If it's easier on everyone then PGI can rename the damn thing, give it appropiate damage output and everyone can go about their merry business of boating 6 ERPPC stalkers and masturbating to their KDR.
Edited by MoarDakka, 06 June 2013 - 06:35 AM.
#91
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:34 AM
No matter how you cut it STJOBE MG's in MWO are doing the damage they are suppose to be doing period. Go test it yourself and see. They will "never" do the amount of damage you want it to do since that would then make them the single greatest DOT weapon in the game.
#92
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:34 AM
Screw realism.
Screw TT.
Screw infantry/mech/pillow fighting.
Light chassis in the game depend on a light weight ballistic as their main weapon, ex. SDR-5K
BALANCE IN MWO
It's the only thing that matters. Make it a in yo face, ammo dependent, 100% ToT to do dmg, cone of fire weapon to be feared. I care not how it was in the olden days of gaming - TT or otherwise. A viable lightweight ballistic that can kill mechs is required in MWO or several mech chassis would be better taken out of the game. Heck, any weapon that can be IGNORED WHEN FIRED AT YOU is bad for everyone.
4DPS, 150 DMG/ton, 90m mech shredder. No less or it is JUNK.
Screw TT.
Screw infantry/mech/pillow fighting.
Light chassis in the game depend on a light weight ballistic as their main weapon, ex. SDR-5K
BALANCE IN MWO
It's the only thing that matters. Make it a in yo face, ammo dependent, 100% ToT to do dmg, cone of fire weapon to be feared. I care not how it was in the olden days of gaming - TT or otherwise. A viable lightweight ballistic that can kill mechs is required in MWO or several mech chassis would be better taken out of the game. Heck, any weapon that can be IGNORED WHEN FIRED AT YOU is bad for everyone.
4DPS, 150 DMG/ton, 90m mech shredder. No less or it is JUNK.
#93
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:37 AM
Joseph Mallan, on 06 June 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:
Right... 20 mm or less=Machine Gun. GAU-8=30mm thus Auto Cannon.
Well, the 20mm is at least also a cannon in real life, though it's referred to as rotary cannon on Wikipedia:
Quote
The M61 Vulcan is a hydraulically or pneumatically driven, six-barreled, air-cooled, electrically fired Gatling-style rotary cannon which fires 20 mm rounds at an extremely high rate. The M61 and its derivatives have been the principal cannon armament of United States military fixed-wing aircraft for fifty years.[1]
The M61 was originally produced by General Electric, and after several mergers and acquisitions is currently produced by General Dynamics.[1]
The M61 was originally produced by General Electric, and after several mergers and acquisitions is currently produced by General Dynamics.[1]
Or from another perspective:
Quote
An autocannon or automatic cannon is a rapid-fire projectile weapon that fires armor piercing or explosive shells, as opposed to the bullet fired by a machine gun. Autocannons often have a larger caliber than a machine gun (i.e., 20 mm or greater). Usually, autocannons are smaller than a field gun or other artillery, and are mechanically loaded for a faster rate of fire. They can use a variety of ammunition: common shells include high-explosive dual-purpose types (HEDP), any variety of armour-piercing (AP) types, such as composite rigid (APCR) or discarding sabot types (APDS).
So, we might need to figure out - is the 20mm Vulcan Canno nfiring shells or bullets?
Well, what's a shell:
Quote
A shell is a payload-carrying projectile which, as opposed to shot, contains an explosive or other filling,
Well, there are various ammunition available for it:
Quote
Until the late 1980s the M61 primarily used the M50 series of ammunition in various types, typically firing a 3.5 oz (100 gram) projectile at a muzzle velocity of about 3,380 feet per second (1,030 m/s). A variety of Armor-Piercing Incendiary (API), High Explosive Incendiary (HEI), and training rounds are available. Around 1988 a new round was introduced, the PGU-28/B,[5] which is now standard for US Navy and USAF aircraft. The PGU-28/B is a "low-drag" round designed to reduce in-flight drag and deceleration, and has a slightly increased muzzle velocity of 3,450 feet per second (1,050 m/s).
It is a semi-armor piercing high explosive incendiary (SAPHEI) round, providing substantial improvements in range, accuracy, and power over the preceding M56A3 HEI round. The PGU-28/B has not been without problems, however. A 2000 USAF safety report noted 24 premature detonation mishaps (causing serious damage in many cases) in 12 years with the SAPHEI round, compared to only two such mishaps in the entire recorded history of the M56 round. The report estimated that the current PGU-28/B had a potential failure rate 80 times higher than USAF standards permit.[6]
It is a semi-armor piercing high explosive incendiary (SAPHEI) round, providing substantial improvements in range, accuracy, and power over the preceding M56A3 HEI round. The PGU-28/B has not been without problems, however. A 2000 USAF safety report noted 24 premature detonation mishaps (causing serious damage in many cases) in 12 years with the SAPHEI round, compared to only two such mishaps in the entire recorded history of the M56 round. The report estimated that the current PGU-28/B had a potential failure rate 80 times higher than USAF standards permit.[6]
So it seems that at least some variations of Machine Guns in Battletech would actually be classified as Auto-Cannons by our modern standards!
#94
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:44 AM
CutterWolf, on 06 June 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:
No matter how you cut it STJOBE MG's in MWO are doing the damage they are suppose to be doing period. Go test it yourself and see. They will "never" do the amount of damage you want it to do since that would then make them the single greatest DOT weapon in the game.
Except DoT weapons are terrible because it means you cannot torso twist to spread damage and you have to maintain facing on target continually to get full damage potential. "Greatest DoT" weapon is akin to "fastest snail".
I think, ultimately, one of the big problems with this argument is the fact that PGI converted the AC/2, a somewhat heavy-ish-for-its-weight, low-heat, low-damage weapon into a high-heat, high dps weapon. This is a problem because in TT it used to do the same exact damage as the MG. If you kept the no-heat, lightweight MG up to par with AC/2 it would be absurdly OP.
As it is, what we have is a dearth of worthwhile light ballistics, meaning lights with ballistic hardpoints (Spider, Cicada, Flea, Raven) are screwed. Besides, more variety is always good.
Edit:
Joseph Mallan, on 06 June 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:
Not that I am disagreeing with you, but Back in the 80s how far in advance did a company have to take to write,test,rewrite, retest a system? The original Box set was sorta like what we are doing now. Beta. Pretty much a bare bones version of the game. 1984 the first box set came out. A year later it was 2nd edition-ed to be BattleTech A year later it had CityTech added bringing us... Infantry and tanks! So the basic game was introduced while the DEV team was working on expansions which included... Infantry and vehicles. Aerotech also came out in 86 giving us a full battlefield feel.
They COULD have known the were going to introduce Infantry and included MGs cause Mechs would need anti Infantry weapons.
Just say it could be.
They COULD have known the were going to introduce Infantry and included MGs cause Mechs would need anti Infantry weapons.
Just say it could be.
To be honest, considering the colossal number of retcons in BattleTech, the number of revised TROs and rulebooks, and even the legal headaches they caused for themselves with the unseen, I have a hard time believing FASA was ever thinking that much down the road, especially in the early days. There is no proof to support that conclusion and there are plenty of examples to disprove it. I prefer to argue based on what is verifiable and provable, rather than speculation. If you can cite something solid though, I'll concede defeat!
I will say though, it's somewhat amusing reading the basic, basic rules from first edition BattleDroids. It's hardly even the same game!
Edited by InRev, 06 June 2013 - 06:53 AM.
#95
Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:05 AM
MoarDakka, on 06 June 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:
The GAU is technically a gatling gun. And the point was to present a weapon with roughly the same tonnage, used in the reals life, that is used for anti armor applications. For 1.5 tons the machinegun needs to be better than what it is.
And don't get hung up on naming conventions. The primary weapon on an Abrams is also called a cannon but it doesn't fire ten thousand rounds a minute. If it's easier on everyone then PGI can rename the damn thing, give it appropiate damage output and everyone can go about their merry business of boating 6 ERPPC stalkers and masturbating to their KDR.
And don't get hung up on naming conventions. The primary weapon on an Abrams is also called a cannon but it doesn't fire ten thousand rounds a minute. If it's easier on everyone then PGI can rename the damn thing, give it appropiate damage output and everyone can go about their merry business of boating 6 ERPPC stalkers and masturbating to their KDR.
It isn't a hat its a cover.
It's not a bathroom it's "The Head"
It's not a gun Its a Rifle
We have these distinctions drilled in to our head. They mean very little sometimes but the distinction is important.
#96
Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:08 AM
InRev, on 06 June 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:
Except DoT weapons are terrible because it means you cannot torso twist to spread damage and you have to maintain facing on target continually to get full damage potential. "Greatest DoT" weapon is akin to "fastest snail".
I think, ultimately, one of the big problems with this argument is the fact that PGI converted the AC/2, a somewhat heavy-ish-for-its-weight, low-heat, low-damage weapon into a high-heat, high dps weapon. This is a problem because in TT it used to do the same exact damage as the MG. If you kept the no-heat, lightweight MG up to par with AC/2 it would be absurdly OP.
As it is, what we have is a dearth of worthwhile light ballistics, meaning lights with ballistic hardpoints (Spider, Cicada, Flea, Raven) are screwed. Besides, more variety is always good.
Edit:
To be honest, considering the colossal number of retcons in BattleTech, the number of revised TROs and rulebooks, and even the legal headaches they caused for themselves with the unseen, I have a hard time believing FASA was ever thinking that much down the road, especially in the early days. There is no proof to support that conclusion and there are plenty of examples to disprove it. I prefer to argue based on what is verifiable and provable, rather than speculation. If you can cite something solid though, I'll concede defeat!
I will say though, it's somewhat amusing reading the basic, basic rules from first edition BattleDroids. It's hardly even the same game!
New guys take charge, new vision of what happened/happens/happening(the successor rewrites the history). I have laughed more than a few times over TRO/Upgrades/Updates/Up the wazoo
#98
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:18 AM
Joseph Mallan, on 06 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:
New guys take charge, new vision of what happened/happens/happening(the successor rewrites the history). I have laughed more than a few times over TRO/Upgrades/Updates/Up the wazoo
100% agreed. One thing confuses me, and this might open up a whole shitstorm.
I managed to find a .pdf scan of the original BattleDroids rulebook. Unseen everywhere, the word mech nowhere to be found. Now, I'm confused because in the advanced rules section of this book . . . there's an infantry section.
I was under the impression that infantry weren't added til later, but sure enough, here they are. Granted, the 2d6 bonus to MGs isn't present in this book, but I am still confused.
#99
Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:31 AM
InRev, on 06 June 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:
100% agreed. One thing confuses me, and this might open up a whole shitstorm.
I managed to find a .pdf scan of the original BattleDroids rulebook. Unseen everywhere, the word mech nowhere to be found. Now, I'm confused because in the advanced rules section of this book . . . there's an infantry section.
I was under the impression that infantry weren't added til later, but sure enough, here they are. Granted, the 2d6 bonus to MGs isn't present in this book, but I am still confused.
BattleDroids was 6-9 months before I got into BattleTech I'm afraid. So I cannot say one way or another. But Cool find dude
#100
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:52 AM
Joseph Mallan, on 06 June 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:
Right... 20 mm or less=Machine Gun. GAU-8=30mm thus Auto Cannon.
Joseph, you going back and forth telling everyone what is or isn't a 20mm Autocannon is getting old. Please, show us a video if you hip shooting a 20mm gun to take out infantry. I'm sure you do that everyday, unless that is not what you are trying to tell everyone. Please tell us all how 20mm Gattling Guns, Rotary Cannons, or Autocannons can't destroy armor in reality.
Where are the fegging infantry is this game? Someone please show me so I can shoot at them instead of the Mechs trying to destroy me.
These discussions are a complete joke. I think what people really want is for the BT creators to rewrite the rules so an MG does not do 2 Damage to any vehicle, tank, aerospace, or Mech in Battle Tech. That's what you people are really after. Confess your sins before you are sent to Camp Gulag Battle Tech Heresy.
So 92% of the weapons in MWO should be a straight up "does TT damage" weapon, and the others ones not? Just sad, sad logic.
Edited by General Taskeen, 06 June 2013 - 08:53 AM.
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