13 replies to this topic

[Clit Beastwood]

If something installed in your mech is picking up a seismic return... the following would be true

1. It would be near impossible to pick up anything while the mech carrying seismic was moving.
2. It would show friends and enemies alike, you'd have to check the iff signal to figure it out.
3. Effectiveness (blip intensity) should vary with distance and displacement of the mech that's incoming, as well as the surface being walked on.

Thoughts? You can hear a train coming by putting your ear to the tracks.. but you can't hear a train coming by putting your ear to the tracks while you're riding on another train.

[HiplyRustic]

Fierostetz, on 04 June 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

If something installed in your mech is picking up a seismic return... the following would be true

1. It would be near impossible to pick up anything while the mech carrying seismic was moving.
2. It would show friends and enemies alike, you'd have to check the iff signal to figure it out.
3. Effectiveness (blip intensity) should vary with distance and displacement of the mech that's incoming, as well as the surface being walked on.

Thoughts? You can hear a train coming by putting your ear to the tracks.. but you can't hear a train coming by putting your ear to the tracks while you're riding on another train.

I don't think, given that it's all computer-filtered information, it's at all unreasonable to expect my systems to know that my footsteps should be filtered out...as their vibration signature would be radiating outward from my position. Pretty simple for the system to check the relative strength of the vibrations.

Good point about potentially needing IFF to sort out what's making the vibrations that are not yours, but I'm not sure we need it. My reasoning would be that the ECM-fans would then say "But...NO signals, my ECM would be jamming their IFF so no one would know I was a bad guy!" and I am opposed to giving them that opportunity to work ECM into this and thereby eliminate seismic from functioning effectively if an ECM boat is within 250m. Especially since it's an ECM counter.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 04 June 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Try to listen to a conversation through a wall, while drumming on it. You can't filter that out. If a surface is already vibrating, you can't filter out some vibrations and not others, at least not without several seismic sensors in multiple locations (i.e. multiple mechs with seismic. Especially through mixed surfaces, i.e. mud ,water, stone, sand, etc. - each passes sound differently. If you have, say, 3 siesmic equipped mechs, then maybe they'd be able to guesstimate ranges, etc. by combining sensor data, but also recall at this point in the BT universe, a lot of technology is lost. A special targeting system (C3) was developed to share sensor data, so our basic mechs really can't even do that. People are largely using things they don't understand (i.e. if a Jumpship is destroyed, it can't easily be replaced because nobody knows how they work).

[HiplyRustic]

Fierostetz, on 04 June 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Try to listen to a conversation through a wall, while drumming on it. You can't filter that out. If a surface is already vibrating, you can't filter out some vibrations and not others, at least not without several seismic sensors in multiple locations (i.e. multiple mechs with seismic. Especially through mixed surfaces, i.e. mud ,water, stone, sand, etc. - each passes sound differently. If you have, say, 3 siesmic equipped mechs, then maybe they'd be able to guesstimate ranges, etc. by combining sensor data, but also recall at this point in the BT universe, a lot of technology is lost. A special targeting system (C3) was developed to share sensor data, so our basic mechs really can't even do that. People are largely using things they don't understand (i.e. if a Jumpship is destroyed, it can't easily be replaced because nobody knows how they work).

You're right, I can't. I am also not a highly sophisticated programmable computer designed for the express purpose of doing this job. I can tell a computer to ignore those bangings on the wall, I can't tell my brain to. The only 'out' in that scenario would be to posit that another mech's steps are completely synchronous with your own and yours are then masking theirs. Odds on that? It would be like hearing someone's footsteps behind you; the only way you won't hear them is if they are matching you perfectly, step for step.

Lostech or not, vibrations move in a very well-described pattern and I think it's safe to assume the modules know what they are doing whether the mech's pilot knows how to do that or not.

As I said, the IFF thing is indeed trickier but I'm willing to suspend my skepticism there in order to filter out the ECMfan static about their modules being a counter to a counter for ECM.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 04 June 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

I'd like to know more about how the sensor even works. A probe on the bottom of the mech's foot? You can't get much from a surface tap to pick up vibrations, you'd need a probe several feet down to get vibrations that travel very far at all. The seismic should probably have been a consumable like the uav, i.e. the UAV goes UP and shows targets, but you drop a Seismic sensor DOWN, it buries itself/drills in/etc. to pick up vibes from a few meters down, and has a 400 m. radius around where it was deployed. A sensor mounted on the surface of the mech's foot would be useless, really. It's going to pick up its own vibes first, and likely any other vibration would be obfuscated by the fact that a 90 ton mech is grinding rock and pavement into dust with each step. If mechs were real, I'd love to see the service life of their foot pads lol. You know that'd have to be a wear item like tires/tank treads. :shrug: I think I'm trying to apply too much reality to what is, ultimately, a video game. I keep wanting MW:O to be more of a simulator and less of an arcade game, which would mean that all the "goodies" would have to be feasible. Working with seismic equipment on a regular basis, the seismic sensor really bothers me. Realistically you'd need a network of them buried several feet down to get a rough triangulation of where something's coming from, with a *huge* margin for error.

The more I think about it, the more it seems reasonable that seismic should have been a consumable/deployable module that stays stationary instead of the wallhack it's proven to be.

[Clit Beastwood]

I can't think about Seismic without also thinking of Tanto (from lone ranger, back in the day) with his ear to the ground lol

[HiplyRustic]

Fierostetz, on 04 June 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

I'd like to know more about how the sensor even works. A probe on the bottom of the mech's foot? You can't get much from a surface tap to pick up vibrations, you'd need a probe several feet down to get vibrations that travel very far at all. The seismic should probably have been a consumable like the uav, i.e. the UAV goes UP and shows targets, but you drop a Seismic sensor DOWN, it buries itself/drills in/etc. to pick up vibes from a few meters down, and has a 400 m. radius around where it was deployed. A sensor mounted on the surface of the mech's foot would be useless, really. It's going to pick up its own vibes first, and likely any other vibration would be obfuscated by the fact that a 90 ton mech is grinding rock and pavement into dust with each step. If mechs were real, I'd love to see the service life of their foot pads lol. You know that'd have to be a wear item like tires/tank treads. :shrug: I think I'm trying to apply too much reality to what is, ultimately, a video game. I keep wanting MW:O to be more of a simulator and less of an arcade game, which would mean that all the "goodies" would have to be feasible. Working with seismic equipment on a regular basis, the seismic sensor really bothers me. Realistically you'd need a network of them buried several feet down to get a rough triangulation of where something's coming from, with a *huge* margin for error.

The more I think about it, the more it seems reasonable that seismic should have been a consumable/deployable module that stays stationary instead of the wallhack it's proven to be.

There are times I would like it be more simlike as well. Then I stop to think about all the things that make that unworkable...like 1000m limits on missile systems, <600m optimal ranges on 100mm cannons, gigawatt lasers that completely lose the ability to cause insane damage at 250m, and bipedal 90 ton stompy robots having been decided on as an optimal mobile warfighting platform.

[Clit Beastwood]

haha yeah "long range missiles" - shouldn't we be hitting like 20 miles out? 200 miles out?

I want laser guided missiles, i.e. they follow the laser regardless of lock. Or even a wire-guided missile! That'd be FUN to pilot the missile all the way to target!

[Donas]

Fierostetz, on 04 June 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

If something installed in your mech is picking up a seismic return... the following would be true

1. It would be near impossible to pick up anything while the mech carrying seismic was moving.
2. It would show friends and enemies alike, you'd have to check the iff signal to figure it out.
3. Effectiveness (blip intensity) should vary with distance and displacement of the mech that's incoming, as well as the surface being walked on.

Thoughts? You can hear a train coming by putting your ear to the tracks.. but you can't hear a train coming by putting your ear to the tracks while you're riding on another train.

1. I'm inclined to agree, unless the sensor wasn't a 'constant on' sensor. ie. it cycles off during your mech's own footfalls and back on in between. moving would make enemy mechs more dificult to locate since any footfall that coincided with your own wouldnt be picked up since the sensor is cycled off.

2. I'm guessing that the computer is all ready parsing that information and only displaying relevent data on your HUD. good point though.

3. agreed, though its all ready pretty sketchy. not pinpoint at all. there's ben a couple times where I thought someone coming around one corner, and they were actually rounding a different corner of the same building.

[Clit Beastwood]

I've equipped seismic to one mech (a highlander) and have successfully snap-shotted a few people based on blip alone - basically, fire right as the blip gets to a corner (canyons!) and nail them with a few ppc's. Neat that I was able to do it, but also, in my opinion, quite overpowered.

sidebar: I just noticed the Cata in your signature picture. If you paint a highlander fluorescent yellow and purple it kinda looks like devastator from Transformers my current "most awful" paint scheme is tiger stripes with fluorescent yellow, purple, and orange.

[Gremlich Johns]

I so agree with the OP suggestion. However,....

Look at the way they implemented ECM. When electromagnetic energy is generated, everything in the surrounding area is affected. In MW:O, only enemy mechs are affected by the EM - the friendlies experience absolutely NO affects/effect. If the radar tech in 3050 is relatively similar - that is, operating tin the same frequency band, then nobody gets to target anything with targeting radar.

Again, another feature implemented without understanding the physics.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 04 June 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

It seems like flipping ECM on should knock out friendly sensors within range as well, so, yes your teammates can be in your ECM bubble, but you'll also have no sensors.

[Thor Dyrden]

I don't agree... not even Assaults like to remain stationary... disabling seismic sensors completely when moving would render them useless.
Also don't agree, that friendly units should also be shown - my targeting computer knows, where friendly units are and can simply filter them out.

What I agree - that it is harder to notice vibrations/noise the more noise you make yourself - but not impossible, since you know which sounds are done by you - similar like noise cancelling in headphones work.

It will be totally impossible to pic up seismic waves when you don't have contact to the ground.

These thoughts lead to what I would propose to nerf the overpowered seismic sensors:

• stationary -> 100% seismic range
  
• moving slowly (<25% of max) -> 75% range
  
• <50 of max speed -> 50% range
  
• <75% of max speed -> 25% range
  
• 100% speed or jumping -> 0% seismic sensors

They are still usable - but depending on your speed limited in range

Edited by Thor Dyrden, 08 June 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

That's the point - using uber powerful seismic should come with a catch. As of right now, in it's present implementation, it's impossible. It's an arcade game toy right now.

And really, just adjust the size of the blips. You're running fast, you see big fat blips so you don't know quite where they are. Slow down or stop, and you can nearly pinpoint. It still makes more sense for seismic to be a deployable consumable item, so you can drop it off somewhere and leave it and it keeps relaying sensor data.