As of now, LRMs wouldn't have had this rollercoaster of nerfs and buffs if it weren't for boating. You saw no one complain about the Trebuchet or the Catapult firing 30 LRMs at once, only assault mechs firing 80 at once made them broken. Currently, they are still very weak, but are "fine" when heavily boated.
I've always said, and I know a lot of people said the same thing before, that LRMs are perhaps the hardest weapon to balance with boating being permitted. What I suggested before is to use a "missile tubes" limit instead of a hardpoint system for missiles, but other suggestions are welcome. IMO, LRMs can't be balanced because good LRMs are too strong when boated, and weak LRMs are only viable WHEN boated.
4
Dear Pgi, Buff Lrms Into A Viable Weapon, But Prevent Lrm Boating
Started by Sybreed, Jun 04 2013 01:51 PM
66 replies to this topic
#2
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- Overlord
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:28 PM
I disagree, if you boat LRMs you create HUGE weaknesses in your mech, ex: being completely defenseless within 180m. Also, why are you just targetting LRM boating? How about 6 ppc boats, streak boats, AC boats, 8-9 MLAS boats....the list goes on and they're all devastating in their sweetspot, likely far more than LRMS atm. Boating is a method of focusing your role, it gives you strength in one area and weaknesses in others. Several stock variants even come this way.
#4
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:42 PM
Sybreed, on 04 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:
As of now, LRMs wouldn't have had this rollercoaster of nerfs and buffs if it weren't for boating. You saw no one complain about the Trebuchet or the Catapult firing 30 LRMs at once, only assault mechs firing 80 at once made them broken. Currently, they are still very weak, but are "fine" when heavily boated.
I've always said, and I know a lot of people said the same thing before, that LRMs are perhaps the hardest weapon to balance with boating being permitted. What I suggested before is to use a "missile tubes" limit instead of a hardpoint system for missiles, but other suggestions are welcome. IMO, LRMs can't be balanced because good LRMs are too strong when boated, and weak LRMs are only viable WHEN boated.
I've always said, and I know a lot of people said the same thing before, that LRMs are perhaps the hardest weapon to balance with boating being permitted. What I suggested before is to use a "missile tubes" limit instead of a hardpoint system for missiles, but other suggestions are welcome. IMO, LRMs can't be balanced because good LRMs are too strong when boated, and weak LRMs are only viable WHEN boated.
Dunno about that. Just tested 4xLRM15 with artemis and tag and the they still dont hurt a light mech after 4 volleys. Seems the rewind didn't rewind anything...things moving faster than 100kph are still immune to missiles.
#5
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- The 1 Percent
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:50 PM
Skyfaller, on 04 June 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:
...things moving faster than 100kph are still immune to missiles.
As it should be, in my opinion. LRMs should be for wearing down heavies and assaults and keeping people in cover - not an auto-aim light killer. Lights should be the natural counter to LRM boats.
#6
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:02 PM
Chavette, on 04 June 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:
You'd need AMS that shoots down a % of the missiles.
/fixed
/dont tell pgi
/fixed
/dont tell pgi
hey, I suggested that long ago to fix AMS being too effective against small LRM launchers and not enough effective against bigger launchers...
Skyfaller, on 04 June 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:
Dunno about that. Just tested 4xLRM15 with artemis and tag and the they still dont hurt a light mech after 4 volleys. Seems the rewind didn't rewind anything...things moving faster than 100kph are still immune to missiles.
Well yeah that's the point, it seems PGI are afraid to buff LRMs because they can be so unbalanced, right now they still suck
#7
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- The 1 Percent
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:05 PM
they feel pretty good to me right now
#8
Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:21 PM
As i have posted before. This is an issue.
If the concept of LRMs is a difficult weapon to bring to bear but when it hits it hits like a freight train like artillery .... then people will boat the bejezuz out of them even with the inherent flaws in LRMs with minimum range etc.
People will not use just one either as the targeting of LRMs is too different than other guns so it is still suboptimal. This means they will nerf it based on boating making boating them possibly acceptable but taking a single pack useless.
The other end of the spectrum is to create a balance where smaller LRM packs are useful, single packs are useful, and boating is useful but you better beware. I think the only way to do this is change the concept of LRMs.
The only way i see this being viable is if this is done.
1. Fire and forget missiles so mixing LRMs with other weapons does not punish the pilot unduly.
2. Holding reticle lock increases accuracy of missiles so that if you do decide to not just fire and forget you achieve greater damage.
3. Faster missiles and more ammo
4. Moderate damage only
This would create a sandblaster effect for LRMs. They would not hit like a freight train but if you continually fire on a target they better seek cover or they will eventually be worn down fast. It means someone using LRMs as a backup long range epaon can get a lock, fire, then seek other targets with thier main weapons rather than being locked into following your missiles all the way in.
Boats would gain the benefit of increasing accuracy by keeping retile lock making them effective, but the fast firing means they might need to expose them-self for longer unless they are firing indirectly.
This is the only option i see to make LRMs skillful to a degree, make boating worthwhile, and making single packs worthwhile ... or even smaller packs like 5s and 10s.
The mechanics of the weapon lead to boating and you cannot balance for boating and singles. Heat is the only other option but that is flawed.
If the concept of LRMs is a difficult weapon to bring to bear but when it hits it hits like a freight train like artillery .... then people will boat the bejezuz out of them even with the inherent flaws in LRMs with minimum range etc.
People will not use just one either as the targeting of LRMs is too different than other guns so it is still suboptimal. This means they will nerf it based on boating making boating them possibly acceptable but taking a single pack useless.
The other end of the spectrum is to create a balance where smaller LRM packs are useful, single packs are useful, and boating is useful but you better beware. I think the only way to do this is change the concept of LRMs.
The only way i see this being viable is if this is done.
1. Fire and forget missiles so mixing LRMs with other weapons does not punish the pilot unduly.
2. Holding reticle lock increases accuracy of missiles so that if you do decide to not just fire and forget you achieve greater damage.
3. Faster missiles and more ammo
4. Moderate damage only
This would create a sandblaster effect for LRMs. They would not hit like a freight train but if you continually fire on a target they better seek cover or they will eventually be worn down fast. It means someone using LRMs as a backup long range epaon can get a lock, fire, then seek other targets with thier main weapons rather than being locked into following your missiles all the way in.
Boats would gain the benefit of increasing accuracy by keeping retile lock making them effective, but the fast firing means they might need to expose them-self for longer unless they are firing indirectly.
This is the only option i see to make LRMs skillful to a degree, make boating worthwhile, and making single packs worthwhile ... or even smaller packs like 5s and 10s.
The mechanics of the weapon lead to boating and you cannot balance for boating and singles. Heat is the only other option but that is flawed.
#9
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- Bad Company
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:26 PM
Did a couple games after the patch.
First thoughts, I think 1.1 is pretty close to right.
I think 1.3 would be perfect, if they'd fix the issue of not being able to hit fast lights and mediums, and missing other slower moving targets due to the flight path being messed up.
I think the end problem is though, LRM's are never going to be good for the competitive game the way they are.
You can't have them balanced in PUGs and working in the higher skill level of the game.
It's a lost cause really.
First thoughts, I think 1.1 is pretty close to right.
I think 1.3 would be perfect, if they'd fix the issue of not being able to hit fast lights and mediums, and missing other slower moving targets due to the flight path being messed up.
I think the end problem is though, LRM's are never going to be good for the competitive game the way they are.
You can't have them balanced in PUGs and working in the higher skill level of the game.
It's a lost cause really.
#10
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:31 PM
Another solution is simply to have the LRMs be based on missile tube slots not on weapon slot. Then allow as many missile weapons to be loaded as long as it fills up the missile tube slots.
A stalker for example, with 2x10 tube and 2x6 tube missile slots would be able to equip:
4x LRM5s which would fill up the 20 tubes in the 2x10-tube launchers in the arms.
6x SSRM2s which would fill up the 2x6-tube launchers in the torso.
Does this mean the stalker would be loading MORE missile weapons than before? Yes.. but lighter missiles. Technically it could load enough SSRMs to fill up its 32 tubes (total).. 16 SSRMs. The total damage of 16 SSRM2's is 48.
Compared to it now being able to boat 4 lrm20s that do 88 damage its not that big of a deal. Heat wise and ammo consumption wise, those 16 SSRM2's would nearly overheat the mech in one shot...and it would require it to carry as much missile ammo as a current LRM boat. Not to mention the slot cost and tonnage. That balances it out.
The catch? This system would prevent boating of the very high damage at-low-heat bigger missile weapons. You wont be able to cram an LRM20 into the 10 tube launchers. It would red out as an option. You could however cram in 2 LRM5's or just one LRM10 into the tube itself. Or a combination of an LRM5 with an SRM4. See the possibilities?
The devs can easily do it since its the same 'fill in the slot' code the engine uses to allow it to add in-engine heatsinks.
A stalker for example, with 2x10 tube and 2x6 tube missile slots would be able to equip:
4x LRM5s which would fill up the 20 tubes in the 2x10-tube launchers in the arms.
6x SSRM2s which would fill up the 2x6-tube launchers in the torso.
Does this mean the stalker would be loading MORE missile weapons than before? Yes.. but lighter missiles. Technically it could load enough SSRMs to fill up its 32 tubes (total).. 16 SSRMs. The total damage of 16 SSRM2's is 48.
Compared to it now being able to boat 4 lrm20s that do 88 damage its not that big of a deal. Heat wise and ammo consumption wise, those 16 SSRM2's would nearly overheat the mech in one shot...and it would require it to carry as much missile ammo as a current LRM boat. Not to mention the slot cost and tonnage. That balances it out.
The catch? This system would prevent boating of the very high damage at-low-heat bigger missile weapons. You wont be able to cram an LRM20 into the 10 tube launchers. It would red out as an option. You could however cram in 2 LRM5's or just one LRM10 into the tube itself. Or a combination of an LRM5 with an SRM4. See the possibilities?
The devs can easily do it since its the same 'fill in the slot' code the engine uses to allow it to add in-engine heatsinks.
#11
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:34 PM
Sybreed, on 04 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:
As of now, LRMs wouldn't have had this rollercoaster of nerfs and buffs if it weren't for boating. You saw no one complain about the Trebuchet or the Catapult firing 30 LRMs at once, only assault mechs firing 80 at once made them broken. Currently, they are still very weak, but are "fine" when heavily boated.
I've always said, and I know a lot of people said the same thing before, that LRMs are perhaps the hardest weapon to balance with boating being permitted. What I suggested before is to use a "missile tubes" limit instead of a hardpoint system for missiles, but other suggestions are welcome. IMO, LRMs can't be balanced because good LRMs are too strong when boated, and weak LRMs are only viable WHEN boated.
I've always said, and I know a lot of people said the same thing before, that LRMs are perhaps the hardest weapon to balance with boating being permitted. What I suggested before is to use a "missile tubes" limit instead of a hardpoint system for missiles, but other suggestions are welcome. IMO, LRMs can't be balanced because good LRMs are too strong when boated, and weak LRMs are only viable WHEN boated.
I recall a thread I made on boating preventing any kind of balance just cause, if a weapon is buffed, those that boat it will be buffed exponentially.
You know how it ended? That's right, in half the ignorants on the forum attempting to troll and insult what I said.
Also, I said it once and I'll say it again, to those opposed to preventing boating. You wanted a LRM buff without reworking the HP system, WELL YOU GOT THE BUFF.
#12
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- The Privateer
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:36 PM
Garrath, on 04 June 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:
I disagree, if you boat LRMs you create HUGE weaknesses in your mech, ex: being completely defenseless within 180m. Also, why are you just targetting LRM boating? How about 6 ppc boats, streak boats, AC boats, 8-9 MLAS boats....the list goes on and they're all devastating in their sweetspot, likely far more than LRMS atm. Boating is a method of focusing your role, it gives you strength in one area and weaknesses in others. Several stock variants even come this way.
They have made Lrms better however, it is quite stupid for missiles to crash into the ground on firing with a one second target loss they should fly to top arc and loiter like at launch then relock or fuel expended crash to the ground at the last target sight place. And what he said....
#13
Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:41 PM
Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 June 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:
Did a couple games after the patch.
First thoughts, I think 1.1 is pretty close to right.
I think 1.3 would be perfect, if they'd fix the issue of not being able to hit fast lights and mediums, and missing other slower moving targets due to the flight path being messed up.
I think the end problem is though, LRM's are never going to be good for the competitive game the way they are.
You can't have them balanced in PUGs and working in the higher skill level of the game.
It's a lost cause really.
First thoughts, I think 1.1 is pretty close to right.
I think 1.3 would be perfect, if they'd fix the issue of not being able to hit fast lights and mediums, and missing other slower moving targets due to the flight path being messed up.
I think the end problem is though, LRM's are never going to be good for the competitive game the way they are.
You can't have them balanced in PUGs and working in the higher skill level of the game.
It's a lost cause really.
You might be right, the only option i do see is that LRMs with good teamwork should be extremely powerful. So in pugs it will not be too bad, but organised teams with TAG and NARC and good positioning should get a major boost.
I think it comes down to the fact they can be dodged and hidden from so easily - maybe further increases in speed and removing the warning could help somewhat - not sure but i hope my suggestion above might be workable.
#14
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:47 PM
Sybreed, on 04 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:
As of now, LRMs wouldn't have had this rollercoaster of nerfs and buffs if it weren't for boating. You saw no one complain about the Trebuchet or the Catapult firing 30 LRMs at once, only assault mechs firing 80 at once made them broken. Currently, they are still very weak, but are "fine" when heavily boated.
I've finally caught it.
There is a serious problem with the way LRM collision detection and splash are applied.
Part of the reason LRMs aren't doing anything... is because they aren't. I suspect that what is happening is that missile splash damage is being applied to nearby LRMs in a swarm once they get within proximity of the target (possibly even a part of CryEngine's "black box" coding). I've got a good video of multiple LRM salvos exploding -before- making contact with a Jenner that is standing still.
It was a chance event... the guy in the Jenner crashed while gunning at my back (an all too common thing for me, too) and was standing still. LRM salvos from my allies were streaking in, and I was just at the right angle to catch it as the game ended in point victory.
The video is undergoing conversion and will be uploaded to Youtube, and a post created in the patch feedback section with a link to it.
#15
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- Bad Company
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:53 PM
Aim64C, on 04 June 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:
I've finally caught it.
There is a serious problem with the way LRM collision detection and splash are applied.
Part of the reason LRMs aren't doing anything... is because they aren't. I suspect that what is happening is that missile splash damage is being applied to nearby LRMs in a swarm once they get within proximity of the target (possibly even a part of CryEngine's "black box" coding). I've got a good video of multiple LRM salvos exploding -before- making contact with a Jenner that is standing still.
It was a chance event... the guy in the Jenner crashed while gunning at my back (an all too common thing for me, too) and was standing still. LRM salvos from my allies were streaking in, and I was just at the right angle to catch it as the game ended in point victory.
The video is undergoing conversion and will be uploaded to Youtube, and a post created in the patch feedback section with a link to it.
Would explain a lot, they are still acting super funky sometimes, where they just don't do what you'd expect.
I wish a freaking dev would at least comment on it. I've sent like 4 or 5 tweets and made a few posts.
#16
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- Legendary Founder
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:59 PM
Aim64C, on 04 June 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:
I've finally caught it.
There is a serious problem with the way LRM collision detection and splash are applied.
Part of the reason LRMs aren't doing anything... is because they aren't. I suspect that what is happening is that missile splash damage is being applied to nearby LRMs in a swarm once they get within proximity of the target (possibly even a part of CryEngine's "black box" coding). I've got a good video of multiple LRM salvos exploding -before- making contact with a Jenner that is standing still.
It was a chance event... the guy in the Jenner crashed while gunning at my back (an all too common thing for me, too) and was standing still. LRM salvos from my allies were streaking in, and I was just at the right angle to catch it as the game ended in point victory.
The video is undergoing conversion and will be uploaded to Youtube, and a post created in the patch feedback section with a link to it.
#17
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- 3,199 posts
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:11 PM
Aim64C, on 04 June 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:
I've finally caught it.
There is a serious problem with the way LRM collision detection and splash are applied.
Part of the reason LRMs aren't doing anything... is because they aren't. I suspect that what is happening is that missile splash damage is being applied to nearby LRMs in a swarm once they get within proximity of the target (possibly even a part of CryEngine's "black box" coding). I've got a good video of multiple LRM salvos exploding -before- making contact with a Jenner that is standing still.
It was a chance event... the guy in the Jenner crashed while gunning at my back (an all too common thing for me, too) and was standing still. LRM salvos from my allies were streaking in, and I was just at the right angle to catch it as the game ended in point victory.
The video is undergoing conversion and will be uploaded to Youtube, and a post created in the patch feedback section with a link to it.
great job man, I also had a thread created, but I'm gonna check yours right now
#18
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:53 PM
Sephlock, on 04 June 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:
Link us to the post!
http://mwomercs.com/...o-confirmation/
I was a useful beta tester today!
I believe, that if LRMs are applying their splash damage to each other (as I suspect) - then it accounts for some of the high end-game damage stats despite the low observed effect.
#19
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- The People's Hero
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:57 PM
I just finished a match in my Pretty Baby with 55 LRMs.
It is SO easy as to be not fun. 3 kills, 500 damage, and my armor never even got orange.
It is SO easy as to be not fun. 3 kills, 500 damage, and my armor never even got orange.
#20
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- Bad Company
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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:03 PM
Hotthedd, on 04 June 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:
I just finished a match in my Pretty Baby with 55 LRMs.
It is SO easy as to be not fun. 3 kills, 500 damage, and my armor never even got orange.
It is SO easy as to be not fun. 3 kills, 500 damage, and my armor never even got orange.
Yes because that proves something! Why don't you make some videos of you showing this easy godliness like Aim does, instead of just talking out your...well you know where.
Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 04 June 2013 - 05:03 PM.
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