66 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 June 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Yes because that proves something! Why don't you make some videos of you showing this easy godliness like Aim does, instead of just talking out your...well you know where.

Next game, only 1 kill and 350 damage...

And the next game, 1 kill, 6 assists, 450 damage.

Edited by Hotthedd, 04 June 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Butane9000]

AMS should block a flat 40% of missiles.

LRM5 - 2 Missile shot down
LRM10 - 4 missiles shot down
LRM15 - 6 missiles shot down
LRM20 - 8 missiles shot down

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Hotthedd, on 04 June 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Next game, only 1 kill and 350 damage...

And the next game, 1 kill, 6 assists, 450 damage.

Yes but once again those numbers mean nothing without context.

I know nothing about your team. I know nothing about the enemy team. For all I know you had a bunch of people standing around waiting to get shot.

I just had a game like that, I did 450 or so damage (with the addition of 2 large lasers), and killed a guy. With a bunch of assists.

The team was STUPID. They just stood out in a valley below us while 3 of us just shot PPC's, LRM's etc into their faces.

You have to have CONTEXT.

[Hotthedd]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 June 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Yes but once again those numbers mean nothing without context.

I know nothing about your team. I know nothing about the enemy team. For all I know you had a bunch of people standing around waiting to get shot.

I just had a game like that, I did 450 or so damage (with the addition of 2 large lasers), and killed a guy. With a bunch of assists.

The team was STUPID. They just stood out in a valley below us while 3 of us just shot PPC's, LRM's etc into their faces.

You have to have CONTEXT.

I was running solo. No voice chat. I can only imagine how easy it would be running it with my 8-man team, or even with ONE teammate on voice chat.

[Aim64C]

Hotthedd, on 04 June 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Next game, only 1 kill and 350 damage...

And the next game, 1 kill, 6 assists, 450 damage.

Good job. You're on-par with my Jenner.

Except, in matches where I don't get auto-rolled or my team is holding its own in combat and I can be left to various capture duties, I average 2 kills and around 400 damage (the other matches bring down my average to right under 300).

Nice to know you can kill just as hard as my chassis that's less than half the tonnage of yours. If you're looking for a cookie, I'm not even kind enough to give you a reach-around.

[OneEyed Jack]

Homeless Bill, on 04 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

As it should be, in my opinion. LRMs should be for wearing down heavies and assaults and keeping people in cover - not an auto-aim light killer. Lights should be the natural counter to LRM boats.

Yeah.... there's an objective point of view.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Hotthedd, on 04 June 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

I was running solo. No voice chat. I can only imagine how easy it would be running it with my 8-man team, or even with ONE teammate on voice chat.

Except your neglecting the fact that 8mans are where LRM's are the absolute worst. LRM's require the people you are fighting to make stupid mistakes. The really good 8man teams don't do that.

You are preying on bad players in PUGs and uses it to prop up your views.

Like I said, if you are so sure you are in the right, make some videos and show us.

[Sable Dove]

Prevent launching of multiple missiles from the same tube, increase time between launching queued missiles to 1.5s.
Boating fixed.
Then, fix the spread so they don't all hit CT.
Then, balance the damage.
Missiles balanced. You're welcome.

[mindwarp]

LRM boating is here to stay. There are just too many stock mechs that boat LRMs in battletech for it to ever go away. Hell, the Longbow and Viking both have 70 missile tubes in their stock configs. In fact, pretty much every config people complain about in MWO is a canon config in battletech - The AWS-9Q Awesome mounts 4 ppcs and ECM, the LGB-12C Longbow mounts 2 LRM20's and 2 LRM 15's, the PLG-3Z Pillager mounts 2 Gauss rifles and jump jets and the amount of mechs boating stupid numbers of medium or large lasers is ridiculous.

[Hotthedd]

Aim64C, on 04 June 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Good job. You're on-par with my Jenner.

Except, in matches where I don't get auto-rolled or my team is holding its own in combat and I can be left to various capture duties, I average 2 kills and around 400 damage (the other matches bring down my average to right under 300).

Nice to know you can kill just as hard as my chassis that's less than half the tonnage of yours. If you're looking for a cookie, I'm not even kind enough to give you a reach-around.

The big difference is that you actually had to WORK for your kills and damage in the Jenner. I rarely even had to defend myself in those matches.

I love piloting my Jenner. It is actually fun and challenging.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 June 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

Except your neglecting the fact that 8mans are where LRM's are the absolute worst. LRM's require the people you are fighting to make stupid mistakes. The really good 8man teams don't do that.

You are preying on bad players in PUGs and uses it to prop up your views.

Like I said, if you are so sure you are in the right, make some videos and show us.

I did get in a few 8-mans tonight, but I run scouts in our 8-man. We did play around with formations, and when we brought 2 LRM boats working about 150m apart, they racked up kills and assists. (I made sure to equip TAG)

[El Bandito]

DeadlyNerd, on 04 June 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I recall a thread I made on boating preventing any kind of balance just cause, if a weapon is buffed, those that boat it will be buffed exponentially. You know how it ended? That's right, in half the ignorants on the forum attempting to troll and insult what I said. Also, I said it once and I'll say it again, to those opposed to preventing boating. You wanted a LRM buff without reworking the HP system, WELL YOU GOT THE BUFF.

Then the problem is clearly the mechs that allows boating, such as Stalkers, A1, JM6-DD etc...

[Aim64C]

Hotthedd, on 04 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

The big difference is that you actually had to WORK for your kills and damage in the Jenner. I rarely even had to defend myself in those matches.

I love piloting my Jenner. It is actually fun and challenging.

Really depends upon what you consider challenging.

I like running the Jenner as it's a relatively instinctive play mode. I don't really consider it that much of a challenge unless I'm in tight with another light... and then that's half luck and half motor skills.

LRMs require a much higher-order level of thinking. Of course, I also play in a Catapult, rather than a stalker, and favor mobility to tube count. You can play the game where you just stand behind the brawling line and lob missiles into whatever they happen to be shooting at... but that's boring as sin and only so effective on the whole.

I prefer the tactical play of LRMs - where you're moving and putting missiles into things that don't know how you got where you did, and certainly don't like it. Particularly LRM stalkers. I always made it a priority in my catapult builds to trash any stalker LRM player I came across. In my C1, I would dash serpentine at them across the open ground they thought gave them an advantage - dropping ALRMs into them the whole way (while theirs would drop to either side of me). Then I'd finish them with a burst or two from the quad bank of medium pulse lasers.

It wouldn't work quite as well against a highly coordinated team - as a medium or two would probably have cropped up to deal with me ... but whether or not that happened before I killed their lazy fire support mech would largely depend upon luck.

Honestly - I don't see it as "work" to kill in a Jenner - and my statistics would agree with it. I have comparable per-drop damage from my Jenner 7F to my Catapult C4, with twice the K/D ratio and slightly higher kill-to-drop average.

Catapults are often pretty tedious. The ******* pops out from behind a building, fires, and drops back in for your missiles to track right into the building... so you've got to switch targets or try and maneuver in a way that he doesn't expect until he gets a missile launch warning moments before he takes a wall of missiles. Maps like Tourmaline can play hell with missile ballistic arcs (and River City is designed to be a direct-fire map). The crater on Caustic is also all kinds of stupid to try and work with for LRMs (it's hard to tell, sometimes, if the missiles are going to decide to try and fly a flat trajectory or arc up - so sometimes you end up splatting them into the face of the mountain because the last salvo decided to arc all nice and pretty for you).

There's a much more calculated feel to all of it. Sniping is a little more rewarding than skirmishing or brawling - but only so much... and it's in my bones to not stand still on maps unless you want to eat ferro-aluminum gauss rounds and cough up ozone for a month. Despite the fact that I love sniping on many other games... I just can't stand it in MechWarrior, for the most part. It grates against instincts learned in lighter chassis.

Though my 8xsmall pulse laser blackjack is a **** ton of fun. I've yet to unlock the efficiencies for it - but I'm still kicking *** with it. I'm kind of curious to trade those out for medium lasers to see how that would work... but, to be honest, I find the rapid damage application and the higher recycle time to be more functional. It's kind of like having an AC20 with no ammunition restriction and a slightly shorter effective range... and because of the way the damage applies, it's much easier to put all or most of that damage on the part you want. Three shots will punch through just about anything - which is convenient as that pushes you into close-to-shutdown range.

But, there again - I don't get the opportunity to run in teams. I just drop with whoever the heck ends up there.

I've thought about forming my own 'guild' or merc-band... or whatever the heck it will end up being - because I'd love to oversee the training of tactical and strategic concepts within the game, and drill them (and put them to test on the battlefield) - but I suffer from being horribly easy to distract and am very guilty of thinking of many good ideas without actually doing something to bring those ideas to reality. So... you know... that's one of them.

[Deathlike]

Isn't it just curious that Missile HSR is strictly covering SRMs... and not LRMs?

[Corvus Antaka]

with heat/boating penalties thisll hopefully be fixed.

[Sephlock]

Deathlike, on 05 June 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

Isn't it just curious that Missile HSR is strictly covering SRMs... and not LRMs?

LRM flight paths were probably all server side to begin with.

[Hotthedd]

Aim64C, on 05 June 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

Really depends upon what you consider challenging.

I like running the Jenner as it's a relatively instinctive play mode. I don't really consider it that much of a challenge unless I'm in tight with another light... and then that's half luck and half motor skills.

LRMs require a much higher-order level of thinking. Of course, I also play in a Catapult, rather than a stalker, and favor mobility to tube count. You can play the game where you just stand behind the brawling line and lob missiles into whatever they happen to be shooting at... but that's boring as sin and only so effective on the whole.

I prefer the tactical play of LRMs - where you're moving and putting missiles into things that don't know how you got where you did, and certainly don't like it. Particularly LRM stalkers. I always made it a priority in my catapult builds to trash any stalker LRM player I came across. In my C1, I would dash serpentine at them across the open ground they thought gave them an advantage - dropping ALRMs into them the whole way (while theirs would drop to either side of me). Then I'd finish them with a burst or two from the quad bank of medium pulse lasers.

It wouldn't work quite as well against a highly coordinated team - as a medium or two would probably have cropped up to deal with me ... but whether or not that happened before I killed their lazy fire support mech would largely depend upon luck.

Honestly - I don't see it as "work" to kill in a Jenner - and my statistics would agree with it. I have comparable per-drop damage from my Jenner 7F to my Catapult C4, with twice the K/D ratio and slightly higher kill-to-drop average.

Catapults are often pretty tedious. The ******* pops out from behind a building, fires, and drops back in for your missiles to track right into the building... so you've got to switch targets or try and maneuver in a way that he doesn't expect until he gets a missile launch warning moments before he takes a wall of missiles. Maps like Tourmaline can play hell with missile ballistic arcs (and River City is designed to be a direct-fire map). The crater on Caustic is also all kinds of stupid to try and work with for LRMs (it's hard to tell, sometimes, if the missiles are going to decide to try and fly a flat trajectory or arc up - so sometimes you end up splatting them into the face of the mountain because the last salvo decided to arc all nice and pretty for you).

There's a much more calculated feel to all of it. Sniping is a little more rewarding than skirmishing or brawling - but only so much... and it's in my bones to not stand still on maps unless you want to eat ferro-aluminum gauss rounds and cough up ozone for a month. Despite the fact that I love sniping on many other games... I just can't stand it in MechWarrior, for the most part. It grates against instincts learned in lighter chassis.

Though my 8xsmall pulse laser blackjack is a **** ton of fun. I've yet to unlock the efficiencies for it - but I'm still kicking *** with it. I'm kind of curious to trade those out for medium lasers to see how that would work... but, to be honest, I find the rapid damage application and the higher recycle time to be more functional. It's kind of like having an AC20 with no ammunition restriction and a slightly shorter effective range... and because of the way the damage applies, it's much easier to put all or most of that damage on the part you want. Three shots will punch through just about anything - which is convenient as that pushes you into close-to-shutdown range.

But, there again - I don't get the opportunity to run in teams. I just drop with whoever the heck ends up there.

I've thought about forming my own 'guild' or merc-band... or whatever the heck it will end up being - because I'd love to oversee the training of tactical and strategic concepts within the game, and drill them (and put them to test on the battlefield) - but I suffer from being horribly easy to distract and am very guilty of thinking of many good ideas without actually doing something to bring those ideas to reality. So... you know... that's one of them.

I consider having to maneuver while being targetable by the enemy, within range and sight of their weapons in order to do damage "challenging". When you are in a mech that stopping usually = death, it is more challenging than playing a LRM boat where you can literally stand still behind cover and one-click your way to the top of the leaderboard.

It is my opinion that sitting back and lobbing LRMs using indirect fire, yet still being able to instakill enemies that my teammates have exposed themselves to in order to get that target as "NOT challenging".

I was using the AWS-PB to do that damage. I respect the Catapult as a missile boat, due to the fact that LRMs focus on the CT, and the Catapult has not only a giant CT, but a giant cockpit in the middle of that CT. I cannot count how many Catapult kills I got with LRMs.

An unskilled light pilot is scrap metal. An unskilled LRM boat can finish a game with multiple kills and assists. Either mech in a SKILLED pilot's hands is deadly.

[Aim64C]

Hotthedd, on 05 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

I consider having to maneuver while being targetable by the enemy, within range and sight of their weapons in order to do damage "challenging". When you are in a mech that stopping usually = death, it is more challenging than playing a LRM boat where you can literally stand still behind cover and one-click your way to the top of the leaderboard.

It is my opinion that sitting back and lobbing LRMs using indirect fire, yet still being able to instakill enemies that my teammates have exposed themselves to in order to get that target as "NOT challenging".

An unskilled light pilot is scrap metal. An unskilled LRM boat can finish a game with multiple kills and assists. Either mech in a SKILLED pilot's hands is deadly.

Here's my question for you:

Do you find those unskilled LRM boats challenging when on the other team?

I don't.

LRMs give a bit of an advantage to newer or 'lesser skilled' players when playing against other players who don't have basic skill sets.

They're a tad obnoxious, at worst. However - they can support their team, and their team has to support them to make that possible ... I've dropped with a few too many teams who don't know where the R button is, or have some freaky keyboard without it... or... something.

Can't do anything when that happens. Can't do anything when they don't press an engagement and just sit there, cowering behind walls for the enemy to coordinate and over-runs.

This game is supposed to be a squad based shooter tactics/strategy game. It should not adopt "Bring the player, not the class" philosophies in weapon and role balance. PUGs should be largely left to fend for themselves with the balance changes around structured team play (of course, they need to implement much better methods for us to run in structured teams) - that, or PUG match-making should include weapon loadouts and other factors (though it's unknown if the player base is able to support that kind of filtering).

If we start trying to get Call-of-Duty scope-locked on damage stats and individual leaderboards, we'll never have a decent game (though, honestly, I think other statistics should enter in as part of the "Yay Team!" screen - such as captures). Unless we're talking about a special Solaris mode (which is kind of what this is).

The thing we need to do is role balancing and adding modules and other such things to help flush those roles out. Lights need to play crucial roles in information warfare (namely, in increasing the amount of information to the team, rather than occasionally denying the enemy information). ECM should be almost its own form of combat and be a conscious endeavor as part of support. Brawlers should have knock/shake reduction available and have alternate ammunition functions for their ballistics.

[Hotthedd]

Aim64C, on 05 June 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Here's my question for you:

Do you find those unskilled LRM boats challenging when on the other team?

I don't.

LRMs give a bit of an advantage to newer or 'lesser skilled' players when playing against other players who don't have basic skill sets.

They're a tad obnoxious, at worst. However - they can support their team, and their team has to support them to make that possible ... I've dropped with a few too many teams who don't know where the R button is, or have some freaky keyboard without it... or... something.

Can't do anything when that happens. Can't do anything when they don't press an engagement and just sit there, cowering behind walls for the enemy to coordinate and over-runs.

This game is supposed to be a squad based shooter tactics/strategy game. It should not adopt "Bring the player, not the class" philosophies in weapon and role balance. PUGs should be largely left to fend for themselves with the balance changes around structured team play (of course, they need to implement much better methods for us to run in structured teams) - that, or PUG match-making should include weapon loadouts and other factors (though it's unknown if the player base is able to support that kind of filtering).

If we start trying to get Call-of-Duty scope-locked on damage stats and individual leaderboards, we'll never have a decent game (though, honestly, I think other statistics should enter in as part of the "Yay Team!" screen - such as captures). Unless we're talking about a special Solaris mode (which is kind of what this is).

The thing we need to do is role balancing and adding modules and other such things to help flush those roles out. Lights need to play crucial roles in information warfare (namely, in increasing the amount of information to the team, rather than occasionally denying the enemy information). ECM should be almost its own form of combat and be a conscious endeavor as part of support. Brawlers should have knock/shake reduction available and have alternate ammunition functions for their ballistics.

It all depends on the Map, which mech I am in, and whether or not the LRM boat is part of a coordinated team.

I just think that LRMs need to spread their damage more, and not be able to concentrate their damage on the CT. There are certain maps where staying near cover is impossible if you want to do your job.
There are certain mechs with huge CT hitboxes.

In short, playing an LRM boat should require more skill to be successful than it currently is. God bless the GOOD LRM boats.

[Shadowsword8]

Chavette, on 04 June 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

You'd need AMS that shoots down a % of the missiles.

/fixed
/dont tell pgi

Proposed it months ago.
Got just about everyone agreeing with it.
And PGI didn't notice, or didn't care.

[Skyfaller]

Hotthedd, on 05 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

I consider having to maneuver while being targetable by the enemy, within range and sight of their weapons in order to do damage "challenging". When you are in a mech that stopping usually = death, it is more challenging than playing a LRM boat where you can literally stand still behind cover and one-click your way to the top of the leaderboard.

It is my opinion that sitting back and lobbing LRMs using indirect fire, yet still being able to instakill enemies that my teammates have exposed themselves to in order to get that target as "NOT challenging".

I was using the AWS-PB to do that damage. I respect the Catapult as a missile boat, due to the fact that LRMs focus on the CT, and the Catapult has not only a giant CT, but a giant cockpit in the middle of that CT. I cannot count how many Catapult kills I got with LRMs.

An unskilled light pilot is scrap metal. An unskilled LRM boat can finish a game with multiple kills and assists. Either mech in a SKILLED pilot's hands is deadly.

This is just ignorant. Indirect fire LRM does less effective damage than two PPC hits. Did you know that? Oh wait, it also does that equivalent damage spread all over the mech. For indirect fire to hit you the following conditions have to be fulfilled:

1- You are in sight and locked by someone in the LRM mech team. That means you're most likely getting shot at.
2- Depending on range, LRMs will take up to 8 seconds to reach your location. You are warned about the missiles from the very start.
3- LOS has to be maintained by whoever is locking you up until the missiles hit.
4- Missiles have to fly to target without hitting anything along the way. The mech locking you may have a clear view/shot but the LRM mech might have a cliff/rock/ledge that blocks the missile path to you.

Then you have Artemis...

The LRMs that truly hurt are those that have artemis and perhaps a TAG shining on you. Those focus the damage on the chest area, primarily the CT and their effective damage is like taking a ppc hit to the RT and LT and 2 ppc hits to the CT (if its an lrm20 volley).

To have artemis effect function the LRM mech has to have a line of sight on you. That means you can shoot back with a direct fire weapon. But wait! There is MORE! The LRM boat also has to stay exposed ALL THE WAY until the missiles hit you. Quite different from peeking a corner, firing PPCs/LL's for just 1 second and ducking back into cover isnt it?

The fact of the matter is you're upset because someone you couldn't shoot ..shot you. This is sad because for LRMs to hit you, even indirectly, someone has to lock and keep LOS on you meaning..you can shoot that person. Just because the LRM mech pulls the trigger doesn't mean he killed you. The one killing you is the one keeping the lock on your whiny rear end... and you can't complain about an Artemis hit because those require the LRM mech to be exposed, in LOS to you for 8+ seconds.