66 replies to this topic

[UiA]

I cored a undamaged cent today with 2 volleys from an lrm15x4 artemis awesome with tag, to tell the truth it was kind of ridiculous how fast it went down I felt bad for the guy.

There seems to be a disconnect between pilots who think their lrm mechs are basically immobile missle turrets which should never have to show their face to the enemy and still be able to achieve insane dmg numbers and kills with indirect fire only from 800+ meters away and those who use them more like long-range streaks launching from 300-600 meters away, constantly repositioning, staying with the main group while maintaining los with their target. The former strategy really only works consistently with team and dedicated spotter roles yet relying on pugs to do this will lead those players thinking lrms weak, the latter group realizes lrms are fine as they are right now (maybe even a little bit OP) and can still melt face pretty easily.

[Sybreed]

Deathlike, on 06 June 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Just reading the thread title and reasoning is bad.

Even if a weapon is balanced, it will still get boated, regardless of the intent. See med laser boat Hunchies, Streakcats, AC20 Jagers/K2s, Splatcats, PPC Stalkers...

Limiting the missile tubes does help, but ultimately it is an imperfect system and should not be the end all of balance.

When Clan tech is around, missile boating will be twice as easy. Killing missile boats is not hard, so it's a matter of understanding how to counter it.

Ok I'll bite, how do you counter a clan missile boat when it doesn't even have a minimum range?

[Sable Dove]

UiA, on 06 June 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I cored a undamaged cent today with 2 volleys from an lrm15x4 artemis awesome with tag, to tell the truth it was kind of ridiculous how fast it went down I felt bad for the guy.

This is one of the biggest problems that makes missile balance nearly impossible. The Awesome has 30 missile tubes, but can launch 60 missiles at once. A physical impossibility (though it is not the only mech that abuses this). Until this is fixed, LRMs can never be balanced, because certain mechs can launch impossibly large volleys. Even the Big ol' missile-boat Stalker can only possibly fire a volley of 52 at once (which is pretty ridiculous already, but Stalkers are quite low on the mobility side, unlike Awesomes; and because AMS destroys missiles at a fixed rate, each additional missile is more valuable than the last, so 60 is actually a lot stronger than 52).

The other thing is that they need to add diminishing returns to volley size, possibly through minimum distance between missiles in a single volley, or by increasing AMS effectiveness in proportion to volley size (more missiles means easier to hit).

[Deathlike]

Sybreed, on 06 June 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

Ok I'll bite, how do you counter a clan missile boat when it doesn't even have a minimum range?

Shoot and get cover. It has the same effect of a light mech trying to do their thing (shoot and fade), but it's a lot less practical if you're slow. Missiles still don't travel that fast enough in the first place.

[Aim64C]

UiA, on 06 June 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I cored a undamaged cent today with 2 volleys from an lrm15x4 artemis awesome with tag, to tell the truth it was kind of ridiculous how fast it went down I felt bad for the guy.

There seems to be a disconnect between pilots who think their lrm mechs are basically immobile missle turrets which should never have to show their face to the enemy and still be able to achieve insane dmg numbers and kills with indirect fire only from 800+ meters away and those who use them more like long-range streaks launching from 300-600 meters away, constantly repositioning, staying with the main group while maintaining los with their target. The former strategy really only works consistently with team and dedicated spotter roles yet relying on pugs to do this will lead those players thinking lrms weak, the latter group realizes lrms are fine as they are right now (maybe even a little bit OP) and can still melt face pretty easily.

There seems to be a disconnect in general:

http://www.youtube.c...FBEUD4SQ#t=239s

I'm getting decent damage, there - along what is expected of a 40 LRM salvo. It's hitting acceptably during my engagement with the cataphract.

http://www.youtube.c...oemOPUUQ#t=192s

Then we have instances like that... where I'm firing them "Like Streak MRMs" ... and... well... apparently, 40 missiles equate to a sandblaster.

240 missiles of my own to finally bring the thing down (which I'd actually qualify as a parasitic kill - as the amount of damage I was doing to the chassis was all but null - despite damned near direct hits). Most of the damage that was actually done seemed to have been done by direct fire. Though I ended up being granted a ****-ton of damage - it just didn't seem to be destroying anything.

http://www.youtube.c...7ao8eKTI#t=170s

There you have another similar circumstance where that Hunchback appears to have Anti-LRM armor, or something. Its internals blow to hell just fine. It's just getting there that seems to take stupidly huge numbers of missiles for no apparent reason other than missiles aren't registering what they should.

At least, to be consistent with the results we're seeing from the Cataphract and some of those other mechs in my Tourmaline engagement (there are other places where mechs seem to take proper damage, as well).

I don't know if splash makes missiles explode once collision detects them within 5 centimeters of their target... which plays havoc with targets in motion (that don't take damage when they should)... or what is going on... but the results are just not at all consistent across engagement envelopes.

Which makes balancing LRMs a relatively fruitless endeavor at this point.

Sable Dove, on 06 June 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

[/size]
This is one of the biggest problems that makes missile balance nearly impossible. The Awesome has 30 missile tubes, but can launch 60 missiles at once. A physical impossibility (though it is not the only mech that abuses this). Until this is fixed, LRMs can never be balanced, because certain mechs can launch impossibly large volleys. Even the Big ol' missile-boat Stalker can only possibly fire a volley of 52 at once (which is pretty ridiculous already, but Stalkers are quite low on the mobility side, unlike Awesomes; and because AMS destroys missiles at a fixed rate, each additional missile is more valuable than the last, so 60 is actually a lot stronger than 52).

Actually - the real problem with balancing LRMs is the fact that PGI insists that they fly in a coherent swarm of missiles that then home in on their target as a pack rather than actually implementing a terminal scattering system.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2421229

The other problem is a lack of a proper hardpoint system. The current system does nothing to preserve the 'personality' of various mechs. It may be a bit arbitrary in terms of balancing - but keeping Stalkers from mounting 6 ppcs or 80 missile volleys is not that bad of an idea. It preserves the distinction between mechs like the Longbow and mechs like the Atlas. The missile-oriented Atlas shouldn't necessarily be a Stalker by another name.

Quote

The other thing is that they need to add diminishing returns to volley size, possibly through minimum distance between missiles in a single volley, or by increasing AMS effectiveness in proportion to volley size (more missiles means easier to hit).

Actually, this is why missiles should use a system of consecutive fire as opposed to simultaneous fire (real-world concepts aside). The larger launchers can put more missiles down range at any given time, and certain chassis might be able to put a few missiles down range per fire interval - but AMS only depreciates so much.

What you suggest, however, would completely ruin mechs like the Catapult C4. Or, worse, the C1 - which would suffer increased losses using its primary weapon system while having no means of shooting down incoming direct fire.

Catapult pilots have already given up a lot of their missile weapons to run with Large Lasers and/or PPCs to their energy slots. Defanging them even more seems a bit silly.

[BootHands]

Sybreed, on 04 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

snip

Repeat after me:

"There is nothing wrong with boating.

Just because I do not find a play style interesting does not mean that other people do not find that playstyle interesting.

I will not QQ for PGI to kill build diversity, just because I don't like someone else's build"

People should be forced to recite that ten times before they can even log in to the forums.

[Pando]

UiA, on 06 June 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I cored a undamaged cent today with 2 volleys from an lrm15x4 artemis awesome with tag, to tell the truth it was kind of ridiculous how fast it went down I felt bad for the guy.

There seems to be a disconnect between pilots who think their lrm mechs are basically immobile missle turrets which should never have to show their face to the enemy and still be able to achieve insane dmg numbers and kills with indirect fire only from 800+ meters away and those who use them more like long-range streaks launching from 300-600 meters away, constantly repositioning, staying with the main group while maintaining los with their target. The former strategy really only works consistently with team and dedicated spotter roles yet relying on pugs to do this will lead those players thinking lrms weak, the latter group realizes lrms are fine as they are right now (maybe even a little bit OP) and can still melt face pretty easily.

I had my AWS-8R since closed beta fitted with 4xLRM15's. As soon as artemis released, OH BOY did I ruin peoples days. I pulled it out again and I did feel bad for the poor pubbies walking out into the open getting rained on....for like 2 seconds i felt bad.

Also, i felt bad when an entire team of snipers let me flank them, and RIP THEM TO SHREDS because they were missing shots left and right. I mean FFS i'm playing in the most gimped assualt mech chassis...in the game...and you're missing shots....UNINSTALL. No don't uninstall, come complain on forums because you can't win at the videogame.