26 replies to this topic

[Igchy]

Remove screen shake and cross hair shake BUT keep the random weapon fire spread while jump-jet is active

It completely unnecessary with all the shake.It make
- jj not fun to play.
- create motion sickness for some people.
- Some lite and medium get nerf by it in the process.

When JJ is active the cross should expand and the go back to normal size when jj is inactive


When cross hair expand

-Weapon fire randomly within the cross hair
-Weapon (both ballistic and laser or the combination of the 2) will not fire at same aiming point twice.
-Tag laser count as weapon.If u leave Tag on,it will not fire at the same point as Tag laser pointing.

(But with laser,it will fire at 1 aiming point within the expand cross hair not shaking around so you can adjust your aim while jj is active.

when u release JJ cross hair will go back to normal size and function as normal.


BUT this will make pop-tart easier because u can estimate where cross hair gonna go back to normal size.
so...Make it 0.5 sec or more from the time u releasing JJ to the time cross-hair shrink back to normal size.This should make the window for jump sniping smaller.

I also anticipated the response that will follow so i will answer it in advance

-Why u get motion sickness with JJ when the same happen u hit by AC or LRM or running across terrain?
U got by any weapon u will die within 15 sec . BUT with JJ people use for whole match and more frequent then that and running at 150 kph dont shake this much.

- I like the shake for realism.
Well we can keep it as optional but i doubt anyone will choose to handicap themselves.

- U lies about motion sickness so u can have ur poptart back
Lets assume that i lie and then explain to me why the shake is need when u have weapon fire randomly.

- U don't have to jump whole time use it when necessary.
For some lite jump is tactic that use often in 1 match. See the video (from koreanese)


- I use JJ and i'm fine with it or just tone it down a little.
Good for u but a lot of people dont and there is no telling what shake level that everyone will not effected by it so i propose to just remove it.

- Your tear is delicious cry more.
Yeah i know,pls keep your response constructive.

And the respond i've failed to predict.

-No Randomness. Shoot the weapons where I aim them. This isn't diceroll online.
Randomness happens ,only when your JJ is activate after u release it u can go back and use SKILLZ^TM as u want and with lasers u can actually fire and adjust ur aim.
Besides i don't try to add randomness, its already is with current JJ implementation so i didn't expect anyone to respond on that aspect.


PS . sorry for my english ,its not my first language and this is my first post ever.

Edited by Igchy, 16 June 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

You failed to predict the best response to your post...

No Randomness. Shoot the weapons where I aim them. This isn't diceroll online. I don't want the game aiming for me. I point, I shoot, projectile/whatever goes where I pointed it. Stop trying to make this game random.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 13 June 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[Waking One]

PEEFsmash, on 13 June 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

You failed to predict the best response to your post...

No Randomness. Shoot the weapons where I aim them. This isn't diceroll online. I don't want the game aiming for me. I point, I shoot, projectile/whatever goes where I pointed it. Stop trying to make this game random.

Stop trying to make the game easy, thanks.

It's too easy to hit mechs except lights when everyone's going full speed as it is.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

PEEFsmash, on 13 June 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

You failed to predict the best response to your post...

No Randomness. Shoot the weapons where I aim them. This isn't diceroll online. I don't want the game aiming for me. I point, I shoot, projectile/whatever goes where I pointed it. Stop trying to make this game random.

It seems you don't want MechWarrior or BattleTech at all. Just another "competitive FPS".

[Waking One]

IV Amen, on 13 June 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

It seems you don't want MechWarrior or BattleTech at all. Just another "competitive FPS".

Heh.

Counterstrike has no spread i hear. Oh wait.

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 13 June 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

You failed to predict the best response to your post...

No Randomness. Shoot the weapons where I aim them. This isn't diceroll online. I don't want the game aiming for me. I point, I shoot, projectile/whatever goes where I pointed it. Stop trying to make this game random.

Because aiming is super easy and there's more to skill than point+click.
The idea was for this game to reward not just personal motor/reaction skills but also tactical insight, coordination, and situational awareness.

Also PGI (like a decent amount of the player base) hates the **** out of poptarts.

[Crimson Fenris]

Waking One, on 13 June 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Heh.
Counterstrike has no spread i hear. Oh wait.

Well said.

I still can't understand why they bother themselves with overly complicated methods (screen shake), while a simple mechanism exist since Half-Life, about ten years ago....

That was called crosshair spreading, but maybe this is too hard to implement in this game... that's the only logical conclusion.

Wait...

[Igchy]

I just ask for randomness when JJ is active. Is that too much randomness to u? When u release the JJ u should back to fire at u aiming that u want.

Its cant be more random as current JJ now, right?

Edited by Igchy, 13 June 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Everyone talks about aiming being super easy...well almost every player in this game has ****-poor aim, and the people saying that aiming is easy in this thread probably aren't good at aiming either.
Secondly, adding randomness to shots is not how you make a game "harder." It makes it harder to hit things, true, but that only makes the game "harder" in the sense that trying to roll a 1 on a 20 sided dice is "hard." You don't raise the skill cap by making shots random, and you don't make the game more based in player skill. Instead, every shot you take will be a prayer to RNGesus. Anyone's crap aim will be as good as anyone's great aim, because both will have the game deciding where their shots go.
Having the aiming skill based purely on player skill means that your tactical insight, coordination, and situational awareness will more accurately be reflected in results. Having perfect aim in this game means nothing without these other factors. However, if all you want out of these other factors is the ability to toss a dice every now and then to see if you'll hit instead of using these other factors to get yourself in a position to hit exactly where you point...you should be playing Tactics.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 13 June 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[Igchy]

I thought about aiming point in the center of expand cross-hair too but i think its maybe too easy to hit a target at long range.

But if the cross - hair is expand big enough maybe its not that easy as i imagine.

[Jonneh]

PEEFsmash, on 13 June 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Everyone talks about aiming being super easy...well almost every player in this game has ****-poor aim, and the people saying that aiming is easy in this thread probably aren't good at aiming either.
Secondly, adding randomness to shots is not how you make a game "harder." It makes it harder to hit things, true, but that only makes the game "harder" in the sense that trying to roll a 1 on a 20 sided dice is "hard." You don't raise the skill cap by making shots random, and you don't make the game more based in player skill. Instead, every shot you take will be a prayer to RNGesus. Anyone's crap aim will be as good as anyone's great aim, because both will have the game deciding where their shots go.
Having the aiming skill based purely on player skill means that your tactical insight, coordination, and situational awareness will more accurately be reflected in results. Having perfect aim in this game means nothing without these other factors. However, if all you want out of these other factors is the ability to toss a dice every now and then to see if you'll hit instead of using these other factors to get yourself in a position to hit exactly where you point...you should be playing Tactics.

I find it hard to read your posts without picturing how exactly everything you seem to suggest is a buff to your exact playstyle.

That is not a bad thing, but it should be something you put into context yourself.

As it happens I tend to agree, to a point, with what you say here. RNG isn't a good balance tool, especially when applied haphazardly without solid design grounding to anchor changes.

Something had to be done about poptarting, at least according to many and the devs, but was the real problem the PPC stacking that allowed massive burst to be done at range with pinpoint accuracy (with current convergence)?

JJ shake "fixed" the auto-cover portion of this tactic. Highlanders and the Cataphract varients that could boat PPCs can no longer jump, fire and get back into cover quickly which would be a fairly optimal play style on paper, dealing damage and getting back behind cover quickly before return fire.

Shouldn't we therefore be looking at the convergence of weapons at range? Would these issues exist if 6 PPCs (when fired at 500-1000m range) had more of a spread damage?

Is the solution simply a map design issue? Are they all too open and sniper friendly? Think about your favorite counter-strike map. AWP was a weapon of choice at A-long on Dust2, because it suited the situation. Could it be as effective at A-short? In the hands of the right player - yes. But the closer distance allowed people with "more effective" close range weapons to be on top of you quickly after a single shot.

Which brings me to a final point. Should "long range" weapons be as effective at short range? Do we up the minimum range on PPCs and give them a (massive?) damage penalty inside it?

I'm just thinking and typing out loud at this point really, but I hope it adds some scope to the discussion. We can't really look at JJ shake, PPCs or any single feature in a balance vacuum. I think PGI have been guilty of that with the recent changes.

Can we perhaps have a "full" and detailed balance iteration pass where we try to understand these issues, put them into context, and decide what is good for the game and what isn't?

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 13 June 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Everyone talks about aiming being super easy...well almost every player in this game has ****-poor aim, and the people saying that aiming is easy in this thread probably aren't good at aiming either.
Secondly, adding randomness to shots is not how you make a game "harder." It makes it harder to hit things, true, but that only makes the game "harder" in the sense that trying to roll a 1 on a 20 sided dice is "hard." You don't raise the skill cap by making shots random, and you don't make the game more based in player skill. Instead, every shot you take will be a prayer to RNGesus. Anyone's crap aim will be as good as anyone's great aim, because both will have the game deciding where their shots go.
Having the aiming skill based purely on player skill means that your tactical insight, coordination, and situational awareness will more accurately be reflected in results. Having perfect aim in this game means nothing without these other factors. However, if all you want out of these other factors is the ability to toss a dice every now and then to see if you'll hit instead of using these other factors to get yourself in a position to hit exactly where you point...you should be playing Tactics.

So you're here because you don't feel like praying to the dice in Counterstrike?
Your arguments would hold more weight if it wasn't for the fact that every single FPS game has crosshair spreading and a limit to weapon accuracy.
If the crosshair spread is the size of someone's CT, then you only miss said CT if your aim isn't dead center in the CT.
If the crosshair spread is the size of the target mech, then aim dead center and you still hit the mech.

Crosshair spread, when properly implemented with spread amounts based on intended range/accuracy of the weapons, does increase the skill ceiling. It means that your aim must be even more precise to guarantee a hit, it means that to hit a small/difficult/far away target you don't just need decent player skill, you also need the proper weapon.

[LauLiao]

All JJ shake should be replaced with Harlem Shake.

[Steel Claws]

Still don't know what all the fuss was about. With the use of some decent tactics you could get in close and brawl the snipers before all this. Problem with this game is that everyone wants to play easy mode and they think that everyone else should play like they do. Oh the big bad jump sniper cored you out. Boo hoo. I have never seen a game were people complain as much as they do in this one rather than sucking it up and figuring out how to beat what ever tactic. This has become Nerf warrior online. Everytime someone finds something that works it gets nerfed and the real funny part is that half the time they were screaming that something was too weak before (you can read into this PPCs and LRMs if you like) they decided it was OP or too good/easy/cheesy. Don't even get me started with all the crying over ECM - it was never an issue for most of the decent players and people are STILL complaining about it as if it was actually a big advantage - which it isn't. Half this crew is NEVER going to be happy with the results regardless what PGI does. Today it's jump snipers and PPCs but tommorrow it will be cap rushers, streaks or some other imagined problem.

All I know for sure is that this game is headed for the toilet. I know far too many people who have become fed up with all the crying clowns and nerfing and gave up on this game. Most of the people I know that began playing this game in closed beta won't touch it any more. It was a better and more fun game in closed beta than it is now with all these "fixes".

Edited by Steel Claws, 13 June 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Jonneh, on 13 June 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I find it hard to read your posts without picturing how exactly everything you seem to suggest is a buff to your exact playstyle.

I use exclusively lights, and never a ballistic or PPC. Only lasers...

I do have good aim, does that mean that supporting nonrandom aim = a buff to my playstyle? Others want the game to aim for them, or want everyones shots to be random so good aim will = bad aim. So does wanting the outcome of games to be based soley on skill and not on RNG mean that I am "buffing my playstyle" because I am skilled? That's certainly quite a stretch.

I hate to say it, but these responses seem to point to a belief that bad players, by adding randomness, can somehow improve their chances vs good players by flattening the skill curve. That mentality will be the death of good competition, as Steel Claws pointed out above.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 13 June 2013 - 04:05 PM.

[Wolf Ender]

I feel this is an elegant solution

[armyof1]

Steel Claws, on 13 June 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Still don't know what all the fuss was about. With the use of some decent tactics you could get in close and brawl the snipers before all this. Problem with this game is that everyone wants to play easy mode and they think that everyone else should play like they do. Oh the big bad jump sniper cored you out. Boo hoo. I have never seen a game were people complain as much as they do in this one rather than sucking it up and figuring out how to beat what ever tactic. This has become Nerf warrior online. Everytime someone finds something that works it gets nerfed and the real funny part is that half the time they were screaming that something was too weak before (you can read into this PPCs and LRMs if you like) they decided it was OP or too good/easy/cheesy. Don't even get me started with all the crying over ECM - it was never an issue for most of the decent players and people are STILL complaining about it as if it was actually a big advantage - which it isn't. Half this crew is NEVER going to be happy with the results regardless what PGI does. Today it's jump snipers and PPCs but tommorrow it will be cap rushers, streaks or some other imagined problem.

All I know for sure is that this game is headed for the toilet. I know far too many people who have become fed up with all the crying clowns and nerfing and gave up on this game. Most of the people I know that began playing this game in closed beta won't touch it any more. It was a better and more fun game in closed beta than it is now with all these "fixes".

Sounds like you always play in premades, because then your post would make some sense. As for people not playing in premades, basically everything you said is wrong. And last but not least, poptarts quitting because they can't poptart anymore can only be good for the game.

[Jonneh]

PEEFsmash, on 13 June 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

I use exclusively lights, and never a ballistic or PPC. Only lasers...

I do have good aim, does that mean that supporting nonrandom aim = a buff to my playstyle? Others want the game to aim for them, or want everyones shots to be random so good aim will = bad aim. So does wanting the outcome of games to be based soley on skill and not on RNG mean that I am "buffing my playstyle" because I am skilled? That's certainly quite a stretch.

I hate to say it, but these responses seem to point to a belief that bad players, by adding randomness, can somehow improve their chances vs good players by flattening the skill curve. That mentality will be the death of good competition, as Steel Claws pointed out above.

I only mean in the sense that you're advocating the un-nerf of JJ shake because you play a JJ jenner, and you oppose the nerf to laser boating because you play a laser boating jenner.. and so on.

I make no comment about your skill, in fact I go on to agree that RNG on shots isn't a good balance tool, so please take my comment in context with the rest of the post instead of just one line.

[Hellcat420]

keep jj shake

[Dawnthieve]

One Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

If the crosshair spread is the size of someone's CT, then you only miss said CT if your aim isn't dead center in the CT.
If the crosshair spread is the size of the target mech, then aim dead center and you still hit the mech.

Crosshair spread, when properly implemented with spread amounts based on intended range/accuracy of the weapons, does increase the skill ceiling. It means that your aim must be even more precise to guarantee a hit, it means that to hit a small/difficult/far away target you don't just need decent player skill, you also need the proper weapon.

THIS. SO MUCH.

I come play this game about every 3 weeks for some hours, while keeping up with the patch notes meantime. Last thing I played for an hour was an ECM-free Spider. God I had loads of fun, because hitting things while growing wings was actually a challenge. I agree the screenshake does not need to be, as I imagine it being heavily irritating for more motion sensitive players, but the unstable aim is a must have. Before that JJ lights where far too invincible for the guaranteed damage they dealt. If you're JJing around the battlefield, you're not supposed to hit fullscale meantime unless you're a bloody good pilot.

Edited by Dawnthieve, 13 June 2013 - 04:29 PM.