125 replies to this topic

[Kell Commander]

ArmandTulsen, on 04 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

"Poptarting" is a problem like microwaving your food for 3 minutes instead of 3 minutes and 20 seconds is a problem.

It's not a real problem. It was a tactic players had difficulty dealing with, so they whined about it to oblivion.

It became a tactic because people took advantage of a broken game mechanic. PGI is going to make a game mode with designated attackers and defenders. Now assume JJ still function pre-patch. You are on the attacking team with a very well balanced team of snipers, brawlers, strikers, and scouts. Now the defending team is 8 poptarts. Can you win? I doubt it.

[Esplodin]

Karr285, on 06 June 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jump_Jets

Attacks by a Jumping 'Mech

Jumping makes a 'Mech harder to hit, but the accuracy of weapons fitted to the jumping 'Mech is also adversely affected^[4]. Is this now true? yes or no? If yes working.

Then that is a no, since for some reason a jumping mech is easier to hit with the predictable arc, loss of forward momentum while airborne, no ability for directional thrust, and momentary STOP when landing.

Karr285, on 06 June 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

oh and be thank full they haven't implemented this part of JJ's

Care must be taken when jumping, however, as jumping causes heat buildup with even the shortest jump generating more heat than running, and damage to a 'Mech's gyro or leg actuators and joints can cause a 'Mech to fumble upon landing^[4].

When destroying an actuator also screws with torso twist and arm movement then we can talk.

Karr285, on 06 June 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Owing to the inability of liquids to be compressed, submerged jump jets cannot be used lest the extreme pressure rupture the jet's casing

Water should also slow down movement speed, but it doesn't. Just saying.

Karr285, on 06 June 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

take them for what they are, Movement enhancers not weapon augmenters.

Jump jets are a joke in MWO. The mechanic sucks, how upward thrust is calculated is derp, flightpath is idiotic, and stop on landing even though I'm going the same direction is WTFtastic. Yet the 4PPC/3PPC+Gauss/AC40 builds are still wrecking house because the problem has always been high alphas to a single section of a mech, not the jumping.

[Max Liao]

As I posted elsewhere - since there are only 95,000 threads on this topic. (That's an approximate number, your results may vary.)

Max Liao, on 06 June 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

In the tabletop game, (which the devs used to state this version of MW is based on - as much as possible for a video game), it's +3 to fire while jumping. It's not +1 for a light, +2 for a Medium, etc, so no, weight class should not determine shake. Lights should shake just as much as assaults.

I use jumping 'Mechs (almost exclusively), not because they can poptart, but for the intended purpose of terrain management. As someone above me said, they could have cut your weapons off while jumping - that would have matched TT perfectly. I certainly wouldn't have whined if they'd made that decision, but I think the share is more than a fair compromise. Some people can still do pretty well, good for them! Other people just can't hane it, to you I say either use a non-jumping 'Mech, or use jumping as intended - maneuvering over/around terrain.

I had someone argue and tell me that it ruins 'Mech balancing. No it doesn't. An Atlas is supposed to be able to destroy 36 light 'Mechs (specifically Stingers) before leaving for repairs. Until that happens, the game actually isn't balanced properly. Lights, unless really lucky or disparate piloting and gunnery skills, should never compete with assaults.

[Applecrow]

Reduce shake and remove JJ fuel gauge.
Tie JJ use directly into heat meter.
Massively increase falling damage + future knockdown. Shutting down in midflight should be a death sentence for a mech.
LRM lock based off LRM's LOS not mech's. AND/OR greatly increase LRM flight speed.

Poptarts still viable but not overpowered.

As for shake while on the ground, I'd have no problem with some minimal shake at full throttle (perhaps more so if the mech has a larger than stock engine), but moving at 75% or less there should be virtually no shake, as the mechs are naturally built with a gyro to maintain stability and on the ground have something to react against (the ground). In the air the only reaction they have is the JJ thrust which is busy moving a 20-90 ton brick through the air.I'd not be against allowing more JJ's to reduce the shake, say by 5% per JJ. So a Highlander would still have significant shake, while a 12 JJ Spider would be fairly stable in flight.

[Antarus]

ArmandTulsen, on 05 June 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

You're more than welcome to buy a Highlander and participate in the "poptarting."The tactic doesn't make you invincible and it certainly isn't the easy-win, nuke button everybody is making it out to be.PGI pulled the parental equivalent of giving your kid exactly what he's yelling for, so he stops crying.I kinda wish they pulled that with ECM back in the day, instead of waiting MONTHS to make changes.

Sorry, we don't want to all be forced to play the game one way to be competitive, Your complaint is noted. Move along please.

[Prezimonto]

And that's not even slightly helpful Korupt... all that would do is induce greater nerd rage of much money spent and still having a bad on screen experience.

At least if you had posted the oculus rift goggles I might have agreed...

[KuruptU4Fun]

Prezimonto, on 06 June 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

And that's not even slightly helpful Korupt... all that would do is induce greater nerd rage of much money spent and still having a bad on screen experience.

At least if you had posted the oculus rift goggles I might have agreed...

KuruptU4Fun, on 06 June 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Here's your immersion:
http://boomchair.com/stealth-boomchair

or
http://www.pcmag.com...,1964592,00.asp

Are you talking about this post?

The cheap way to do that would be to buy a crap load of Taco Bell and try to time your farts.

As for Oculus Rift goggles who's to say any rumble packs that thing would have wouldn't cause migraines?

[blinkin]

KuruptU4Fun, on 06 June 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Are you talking about this post?

The cheap way to do that would be to buy a crap load of Taco Bell and try to time your farts.

As for Oculus Rift goggles who's to say any rumble packs that thing would have wouldn't cause migraines?

rumble packs on your head? that sounds like it is just asking for headaches.

[syngyne]

Atak Snajpera, on 06 June 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

I agree with OP. There must be some gentle crosshair and cockpit swaying for better immersion. I've made simple demonstration

Yes please. Let me feel like I'm walking, not sliding across the terrain.

[blinkin]

Atak Snajpera, on 06 June 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

I agree with OP. There must be some gentle crosshair and cockpit swaying for better immersion. I've made simple demonstration

i like this. just like jump jet shake, it is one of those little touches that would bring me further into the universe.

[Lootee]

syngyne, on 06 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Yes please. Let me feel like I'm walking, not sliding across the terrain.

This ^^ add it nao, kthxbai.

[Wispsy]

I agree it is so stupid that I can run around in a 35ton mech at 150kph over uneven terrain and have the smoothest ride of my life. If Jumpjets need shake then so does walking.

[K0M3D14N]

Wispsy, on 06 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I agree it is so stupid that I can run around in a 35ton mech at 150kph over uneven terrain and have the smoothest ride of my life. If Jumpjets need shake then so does walking.

Okay, I'm going to explain this again:

The M1A2 Abrams tank, a piece of technology almost 30 years old at this point, is capable of running across rough terrain at 70 mph and not have is accuracy affected in the least because the turret is stabilized on a gyroscopic frame. Bear in mind, 70 mph translates to over 112 kph. The 'Mechs we pilot more than have that capability and there is nothing at all wrong with it- the only error would be on the pilot's part in terms of leading the target and keeping weapons on target in the process of movement.

What we're talking about here is taking something that weighs upwards of 65 tons (which is 130,000 pounds) that is not designed to fly roughly 25-30m straight up into the air. It's a miracle that they don't topple over as it is, and you're asking for stability on top of it? Even for BattleTech's excessive bending of the laws of physics, that's asking for a lot.

From a gameplay perspective, it also makes sense. Poptarting pre-JJ patch was so ridiculously simple that anyone could do it. Spacebar, target, M1, repeat until victory. Now it becomes something more of a matter of timing in combination with precision which, while still doable, requires a lot more skill and practice than it did before. It is a good change.

[Wispsy]

K0M3D14N, on 06 June 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Okay, I'm going to explain this again:

The M1A2 Abrams tank, a piece of technology almost 30 years old at this point, is capable of running across rough terrain at 70 mph and not have is accuracy affected in the least because the turret is stabilized on a gyroscopic frame. Bear in mind, 70 mph translates to over 112 kph. The 'Mechs we pilot more than have that capability and there is nothing at all wrong with it- the only error would be on the pilot's part in terms of leading the target and keeping weapons on target in the process of movement.

What we're talking about here is taking something that weighs upwards of 65 tons (which is 130,000 pounds) that is not designed to fly roughly 25-30m straight up into the air. It's a miracle that they don't topple over as it is, and you're asking for stability on top of it? Even for BattleTech's excessive bending of the laws of physics, that's asking for a lot.

From a gameplay perspective, it also makes sense. Poptarting pre-JJ patch was so ridiculously simple that anyone could do it. Spacebar, target, M1, repeat until victory. Now it becomes something more of a matter of timing in combination with precision which, while still doable, requires a lot more skill and practice than it did before. It is a good change.

OK well first off, it is a battlemech right, so its walking is controlled by the pilot through the neurohelmet. I have not yet met a person who can run full sprint whilst having his arm never once shake. I mean we are talking realism as in mechwarrior not realism as in I can launch a tiny missile this very day 1000 years in the past from 400miles away that will hit exactly where I want and annihilate everybody and everything around.

Also you talk as if the only use of jumpjets is poptarting. Awesome you are biased. My Jenner using its jumpjets barely lifts off the ground most times, it is literally just an extended step, there is no need for this to cause massive shaking literally trying to give lights headaches as if they were not making it hard enough already through random unthought out gameplay changes.

[River Walker]

KuruptU4Fun, on 06 June 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

I'm sure you should be using spell check to make your point understandable, but I'll try to work around it.

I'm all fine with play style, though play style should be something that takes skill to master. Not something you can pick up like mashing a button like you're playing Mortal Kombat for the first time.

You get skill by learning and adapting to the situation as it is changed by other players, then you build style by changing the situation yourself and forcing others to change to you.

That is the definition of "play style" River, you master the situation or it masters you. Your K/D ratio and end score is affected either way.

My point is the pop tart player are now crying the blue just as much as the guy that put up with SSRM AC2 and Gauss rifle
My point is this is nothing more than WWWWHHHHHAAAAAAAA by a Pop tart Player.
Got it.

[K0M3D14N]

Wispsy, on 06 June 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

OK well first off, it is a battlemech right, so its walking is controlled by the pilot through the neurohelmet. I have not yet met a person who can run full sprint whilst having his arm never once shake. I mean we are talking realism as in mechwarrior not realism as in I can launch a tiny missile this very day 1000 years in the past from 400miles away that will hit exactly where I want and annihilate everybody and everything around.

Also you talk as if the only use of jumpjets is poptarting. Awesome you are biased. My Jenner using its jumpjets barely lifts off the ground most times, it is literally just an extended step, there is no need for this to cause massive shaking literally trying to give lights headaches as if they were not making it hard enough already through random unthought out gameplay changes.

So..because the pilot controls the 'Mech through the neurohelmet (and also a joystick and throttle setup), he has to physically run around in the cockpit? That doesn't really make sense. The leg actuators are controlled via the neurohelmet and by rudder pedals that you can physically see at the pilot's feet. The speed is controlled by the throttle on the pilot's left hand and pitch/yaw with the joystick on the right. The entire mechanism has to be gyrostabilized because there's literally no other way one of these things could stay standing upright otherwise, especially over rough terrain.

I pilot a Spider myself so...yeah, no. That isn't going to fly. The screen shake isn't that bad and it doesn't throw the Spider off that badly at the ranges you're expected to be fighting in one.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

ArmandTulsen, on 04 June 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

...shake from moving your mech. The crosshair shouldn't be stable in either case. To be consistent, there has to be some amount of shake from moving your mech at top speed.
It's ridiculous how a light mech moving at 130 kph has pin-point accuracy, but a little thruster propulsion means it hits a 9 on the Richter scale.
Make this change make sense, PGI. Please. Thanks.

There was a bit of talk about this during closed beta. The idea that your target should sway with the mech, and sway more when you are at "run" speeds was a great idea on yet another limitation on how to limit boating along with max weapons allowed per chasis and weapon type that, like so many other ideas, PGI has said thank you but we know how to kill MWO faster than you do.

[LordBraxton]

Esplodin, on 06 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Then that is a no, since for some reason a jumping mech is easier to hit with the predictable arc, loss of forward momentum while airborne, no ability for directional thrust, and momentary STOP when landing.



When destroying an actuator also screws with torso twist and arm movement then we can talk.



Water should also slow down movement speed, but it doesn't. Just saying.



Jump jets are a joke in MWO. The mechanic sucks, how upward thrust is calculated is derp, flightpath is idiotic, and stop on landing even though I'm going the same direction is WTFtastic. Yet the 4PPC/3PPC+Gauss/AC40 builds are still wrecking house because the problem has always been high alphas to a single section of a mech, not the jumping.

whoa did I just read like

reason and rationality?

you don't belong on this forum sir

you make sense

[Fabe]

Esplodin, on 06 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Then that is a no, since for some reason a jumping mech is easier to hit with the predictable arc, loss of forward momentum while airborne, no ability for directional thrust, and momentary STOP when landing.



When destroying an actuator also screws with torso twist and arm movement then we can talk.



Water should also slow down movement speed, but it doesn't. Just saying.



Jump jets are a joke in MWO. The mechanic sucks, how upward thrust is calculated is derp, flightpath is idiotic, and stop on landing even though I'm going the same direction is WTFtastic. Yet the 4PPC/3PPC+Gauss/AC40 builds are still wrecking house because the problem has always been high alphas to a single section of a mech, not the jumping.

Some good points,some terrain modifiers to speed would be nice to have and jumping mechs do need to be harder to hit. I don't think mechs should be able to change the direction they are moving in mid flight but being able to jump in any direction regardless of their facing and land facing any direction might bring jumping in line with TT more.

[syngyne]

I agree it is so stupid that I can run around in a 35ton mech at 150kph over uneven terrain and have the smoothest ride of my life. If Jumpjets need shake then so does walking.I don't think the side to side motion is as necessary(and too much of it will probably make people motion sick), but I think the vertical movement is pretty important to conveying the walking motion. Walking through a map like River City and seeing the buildings on either side of your 'Mech slide by smoothly with no perspective shift kind of kills the illusion that you're sitting in a walking machine. It's like you're floating inside the cockpit and following the 'Mech around the field, as opposed to actually strapped to it.This is a big part of what bugged me about MW4. MW2/3 had camera motion, but it was absent in MW4, and as a result MW4 felt really floaty to me like MWO does. It's not something that'd keep me from playing, but for me it does really hurt the immersion.</p>

Edited by syngyne, 07 June 2013 - 06:30 AM.