1217 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

Kunae, on 05 June 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Which is actually against PGI's stated purpose. Where's the "fair" and "equal" in that?

Wha? You aren't making sense. There is NO "fair" or "equal" in a skill-based game. Skill IS the differentiating factor.

[Doomstryke]

UbersAlterEgo, on 05 June 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

I would also like to add to the "please get rid of hudshake on light mechs". Running around jumping over hills to fire on assault mechs is a very important tactic for lights and the inaccuracy caused by the shake makes it overly difficult to use this strategy. I would imagine this is why scouts have jumpjets in the first place. Jumpjets are the difference in advantage when it comes to a Spider 5d fighting a Raven 3L. If you can't hit the thing while running away and jumping over a hill the Raven can't pass then you might as well not bother, or just shut down and die. I am not complaining, but I feel I just lost an advantage I had against an aim assisted streaker

Have you tried this yet? run around and as you jump look twist and stuff the way you should be using jump jets and you will notice almost zero shaking. Hell run do a 360 and land there's almost no shake apart from when you hit space until you start moving your camera. It only shakes badly when you aren't moving your camera/ crosshair

[DeaconW]

Mason Grimm, on 05 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

I played a few games this morning and saw several known poptart-only players suffering greatly. They were averaging 150 damage per match with less than half their usual kills before they were taken out completely. In fact one team, who has been known to play whack-a-mech a lot, was completely rolled over by brawlers because they simply couldn't compensate.

Granted, I did see one or two folks pop-tart with fairly deadly accuracy.

I am guessing that the divide between a well built mech, piloted by a skilled pilot, and a "barely able to lift off the ground" mech piloted by a mediocre player, just got a lot bigger

THIS^^^ is a beautiful thing and a good day for MWO...

Gowan, on 05 June 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Poptart using... reason? Firenze, you just shattered my worldview, and reminded me that broad assumption are bad and typically wrong. Thanks for that.

Reasonable poptart should be a meme.

My mind is now blown...

[Kunae]

DeaconW, on 05 June 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Wha? You aren't making sense. There is NO "fair" or "equal" in a skill-based game. Skill IS the differentiating factor.

Then let's do what I said in that post, that you chose not to quote. Remove all non-skill weapons/equipment.

[DeaconW]

Kunae, on 05 June 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I choose not to debate the merits of any aspect of a fabricated "solution" to a, intentional or not, fabricated "problem".

Translation: I choose to stick my head in the sand and ignore a well-known and well-debated problem with the game meta.

Quote

(Edit: And in response to the inevitable name-calling reply, I do not play 'pop-tart' mechs. Until this point I primarily played Jenners.)

Maybe...but what you are advocating puts you squarely on their side.

[NinetyProof]

Quote: The Ends do not Justify the Means.

Love the effect of the nerf. Game was not "whack-a-mole" yesterday. Before Nerf, there was simply too much "vertical" movement in the game. Game felt like Mech Warrior again yesterday.

Hate the fact that nerf causes physical discomfort in a wide swath of the player base. A *game mechanic* should NEVER EVAR induce physical discomfort. I personally started to get a headache. Others in my clan experienced the same thing.

Suggestion: Reduce the shake, but increase the "randomness" effect. Maybe change rectile to get very very large while JJ's are active? Or have rectile disappear completely? (we can track by the weapons cool down overlay).

Bottom Line: This nerf simply gives an advantage to those that are not susceptible to vertigo / headaches ... and that is terrible game design.

Edited by NinetyProof, 05 June 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[DeaconW]

Firenze, on 05 June 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

JJs are still fun, but now are primarily used for mobility purposes. You wanna snipe still? You still can! With a stable firing platform on the ground. Just position yourself well.

But that wouldn't give him his easy mode jumpsniping...

Gowan, on 05 June 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

I wasn't going to call you a poptart. I was going to call you a tinfoil-hat-wearing loony. You think that PGI is manufacturing the problem for their own nefarious purposes? Seriously?

I'm also going to point out that PGI has always maintained that the game should be easy to learn, but difficult to master. I would consider the previous iteration of JJs (when used for jump-sniping) outright destructive to that mindset, since there was no reason to try to master anything with that set-up. Throttle decay and arm-lock are supposed to make learning the basics easier on new players. Making jump-sniping harder just serves to make a tactic that was dominating the game less of an easy-mode. See? Easy to learn, difficult to master? Get it?

SSRMs are important in TT, and nearly useless right now anyway. What was the other thing you said? Zoom? Really? And I agree with you on third person, but that's a different discussion.

I would be totally fine with scaling back the overall effect by weight and/or thrust deviation, but... man, now I'm inclined to disagree just because I don't want to be sitting on the same side of the table as crazy.


I have to disagree emphatically with that. JJ pop-tart snipers absolutely murdered the game experience for my entire unit. The ability to place 35+ damage on a single point and then instantly fall back behind cover was more than a little bit game-breaking -- after all, you can counter most direct-fire builds with indirect fire, but poptarts were almost immune to IDF. You either had to swarm them with fast-movers or use a high-alpha build yourself, which limited effective gameplay. Things seem a little more even now, and I for one still have no problems using JJs for mobility, which is their real purpose in the game anyway.

Gowan, I have run out of allowed likes for the day or I would be liking your last 3 posts...just wanted to give you props.

[Kunae]

DeaconW, on 05 June 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Translation: I choose to stick my head in the sand and ignore a well-known and well-debated problem with the game meta.

Since you seem to have reading comprehension problems: Translation: I choose not to debate any of the merits of the Jump-jet "fix", which was put in yesterday. I don't think there should be a compromise on it, I think it should be removed. A different solution is needed to counter the perceived "pop-tart" issue.

Quote

Maybe...but what you are advocating puts you squarely on their side.

Nope. I am on the side of the persecuted Jenner. I care nothing for highlanders, or their broken mechanics brought on by PGI's nerfs of 2 months ago.

Edited by Kunae, 05 June 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[DeaconW]

Kunae, on 05 June 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Then let's do what I said in that post, that you chose not to quote. Remove all non-skill weapons/equipment.

Because that is non-sensical...there are always "non-skill" components. Your post was nothing more than a tantrum of "if I can't have what I want then no one should be able to have anything". There are reasonable people debating this topic...try to emulate them.

[Neutron IX]

Asmosis, on 05 June 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

what happened to the good old days when people read that epilepsy warning on the game catridge box, and if they experienced dizziness, sickness and so forth, stopped playing?

I'm actually serious here. If somethings making you sick, don't do it. that has n.o.t.h.i.n.g to do with how a game should be balanced. nothing whatsoever.

Here's the problem with this type of response. Until yesterday, the game did not cause this reaction for most of us.

Until yesterday, how many threads/posts existed talking about "Whoa, please tone it down, I think I'm going to barf"? Not many, if any at all. So what you're actually saying isn't "hey, why did you ignore the warning", what you're actually saying is, "they made a change to the currently existing game that you've been playing for months with no problems at all, that didn't exist prior, with the end result being that a big aspect of the game is now unplayable for many of you, and since I'm unaffected, I have no problem with the change", while those of us affected are having to completely walk away from mechs we've bought and paid for (in the case of my JR7-F© with real money, and that's not even counting the Cobra paint and colors I put on it) and spent hours leveling and playing and enjoying with no problems whatsoever...until, as I mentioned, yesterday.

Edited to add/reiterate. I hated Poptarts as well and though I prefer addressing things like that through strategy on the battlefield personally, I fully support changes to mechanics that would minimize or remove poptarting. I have seen several suggestions that could have perhaps done this without creating the nausea inducing effect that was actually implemented, and I, and many others, wish that had been the route selected.

Edited by Rip Snorgan, 05 June 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Igchy]

Please remove the screen shake But keep the reticle shake .It make a lot of people sick including me.

[Delete F4]

Noktoo, on 05 June 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

Hey Guys...

have you seriously expected a construct of 20-90 tons of metal rise up into air without andy turbolances, smooth like a leave in the wind without any shaking and trembling?

Really?

Please imagine how much force is needed to move such a vehicle in 2 Dimensions. Only to move it forward. And then try to imagine how much power is needed to lift it up into the air. And then... please tell me that this movement is completly counterbalanced by any mechanics working to garantuee that the pilot is not feeling a single shake and is able to aim like a hidden sniper with a longrifle in the bush.

In my humble opinion PGI did a great job on the last patch by adding the tremble and shaking and aim deficiency. You are blasing hot plasma out of your engine to bring your mech into the air and get an improved flexibility in manouvering. Therefore are jumpjets designed. Not for poptarting and now they are working as indendet... in my opinion as said already...

No one is forced to used JJs, even if a mech is able to equip it... if youre not feeling comfortable by using them to manouver, remove em and get a larger engine or more weapons or more heatsinks in it.
Build your mech like you feel it comfortable to play with... i will definitly keep my JJs in my HGN to climb up difficult paths faster and have the possibilty to jump turm and so on...

PGI good job on the last patch... go on with it.

Most that are good with the last patch concerning jjs,cry poptarts.. Are from C.O.D. and want the same here. If you cant take a shot in the face from a jumping mech sniper then just maybe this game is not for you.

[Gowan]

This doesn't need to be a big thing where everybody is on a 'side.' The spirit of this mechanic was spot on, but the execution (and whole list of other stuff) needs to be tweaked. I really don't like that lights are getting kicked to the curb alongside poptarts, especially since the experience of piloting light mechs with JJs has been essentially the same since CB (with the exception of collision and knockdowns, which is a core gameplay mechanic and more important than CW and needs to be addressed ASAP).

Personally, I think boosting PPC heat back up to where it was pre-buff and adding a secondary firing effect (a fuzzy hud, IFF flicker, maybe a half-second target loss) would do wonders for this problem. PPCs need to be useful, not boat-fodder. I also feel like reducing shake and accuracy loss based on tonnage would be a nice addition, but in terms of people claiming that this is a pointless mechanic -- I think that some form of shaking and accuracy loss should have been in from the beginning.

McDuce, on 05 June 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Most that are good with the last patch concerning jjs,cry poptarts.. Are from C.O.D. and want the same here. If you cant take a shot in the face from a jumping mech sniper then just maybe this game is not for you.

No. Just no. Mechs shouldn't be able to snipe in midair. It's freaking stupid, non-canon, and nonsensical. Poptarting should require a ton of skill to pull off successfully, and the problem with this patch is that it unfairly demolishes the established tactics of light mech piloting, not that it removed some easy-mode mech builds from widespread abuse.

Edited by Gowan, 05 June 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Kunae]

Gowan, on 05 June 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

This doesn't need to be a big thing where everybody is on a 'side.' The spirit of this mechanic was spot on, but the execution (and whole list of other stuff) needs to be tweaked. I really don't like that lights are getting kicked to the curb alongside poptarts, especially since the experience of piloting light mechs with JJs has been essentially the same since CB (with the exception of collision and knockdowns, which is a core gameplay mechanic and more important than CW and needs to be addressed ASAP).

Personally, I think boosting PPC heat back up to where it was pre-buff and adding a secondary firing effect (a fuzzy hud, IFF flicker, maybe a half-second target loss) would do wonders for this problem. PPCs need to be useful, not boat-fodder. I also feel like reducing shake and accuracy loss based on tonnage would be a nice addition, but in terms of people claiming that this is a pointless mechanic -- I think that some form of shaking and accuracy loss should have been in from the beginning.

Perhaps, but I think it's a bit late to be so severely altering this dynamic.

Can you imagine the horror of the uproar that's going to happen when they reintroduce knockdowns? It's going to be a few orders of magnitude above anything we have seen, thus far. They should have never taken it out, and since they did, a fixed mechanic should have been put in no-longer than 3 months after removal.

It's going to be bloody.

[W.E.Kurtz]

Developers said:
"- Jump jetting now cause:
- Screen shake - Jump jetting Mechs shake while jump jets are active.
- Cross hair shake - Cross-hair shake while jump jets are active.
- Weapon fire spread - Aiming weapons is randomly offset while jump jets are active."

But its shake and after u off jump jets, ~1 sec, but its too long.
It must stup shake immediately.

This patch killing skill jumpers, say hello to hamsters configs.

Edited by ZodGoat, 05 June 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[garstig]

I don't want to call it "Motionsickness" but the shake of the Crosshair is stressful if you try to concentrate.
Maybe stop the Crosshair from shaking (so you can focus it with the eyes) but continue with the widespread of the Weaponsfire or let the Crosshair disappear .. but this flounder hectic Thingy is very annoying.

[Gowan]

Kunae, on 05 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Perhaps, but I think it's a bit late to be so severely altering this dynamic.

Can you imagine the horror of the uproar that's going to happen when they reintroduce knockdowns? It's going to be a few orders of magnitude above anything we have seen, thus far. They should have never taken it out, and since they did, a fixed mechanic should have been put in no-longer than 3 months after removal.

It's going to be bloody.

I can't argue with that -- it's going to be loud and annoying, but it's important. Knockdowns absolutely need to be in the game -- and I feel the same way about some kind of penalty for JJ use.

But yeah, it is late for this stuff. IGP pushed OB up way too soon for such a small team.

[DeaconW]

McDuce, on 05 June 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Most that are good with the last patch concerning jjs,cry poptarts.. Are from C.O.D. and want the same here. If you cant take a shot in the face from a jumping mech sniper then just maybe this game is not for you.

Hey McDuce....Your narcissism is breathtaking and I know you miss your OP jumpsnipe easymode but you are exactly what is wrong with this game because you have no respect for the IP or what a MW game is supposed to be. Pls go play Hawken. Oh...and welcome to my ignore file.

Serapth...am I OK to drink this guys poptart tears now? I have elected you as my conscience so I don't get out of hand like last night...

ZodGoat, on 05 June 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

This patch killing skill jumpers, say hello to hamsters configs.

LOL! You said "skill jumpers"....

Kunae, on 05 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Perhaps, but I think it's a bit late to be so severely altering this dynamic.

Can you imagine the horror of the uproar that's going to happen when they reintroduce knockdowns? It's going to be a few orders of magnitude above anything we have seen, thus far. They should have never taken it out, and since they did, a fixed mechanic should have been put in no-longer than 3 months after removal.

It's going to be bloody.

I agree with you(surprised?)...but just like this change (which will get toned down) that change NEEDS to happen. People getting used to a broken mechanic is no reason not to fix it. I also am looking forward to the return of knockdowns...it will separate the good and bad light pilots like this JJ shake just separated the good and bad heavy and assault pilots.

[Kunae]

Gowan, on 05 June 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

I can't argue with that -- it's going to be loud and annoying, but it's important. Knockdowns absolutely need to be in the game -- and I feel the same way about some kind of penalty for JJ use.

But yeah, it is late for this stuff. IGP pushed OB up way too soon for such a small team.

I agree, PGI made a mistake going with IGP.

I don't agree that their team is too small... I just think their dev process, QA/QC process and development cycle need to be reworked. They're not very nimble, for the size of their team.

Knockdowns are mandatory to have in the released game. However, with how many times they've already disregarded canon to justify some change with 'balance', I don't see it as too far out of the realm of sanity to have JJ's not shake, also for 'balance' reasons.

[Chillybill]

leave in the screen shake that indicates your mech is experiencing the G force of lift off take out the cross hair shake so you guys wont get sick but leave in the random weapon fire spread, its the mech that is shaking not the cross hair so the weapon may fire right, left or up or down with a certain % chance that you might accidently hit what your aiming at while jets are active, basically same effect as now with a still cross hair