1217 replies to this topic

[Sneaky B]

Try to jump while firing a rifle and hit a target from at least 600m away. You are essentially an unstable platform.

IMHO, the reticle shouldn't shake like that as it is very un-HUD like. Should at least have like a bigger reticle indicating the cone spread. Currently, it can visually trigger reflex mechanism especially after long hours of playing.

And that is coming from somebody who despises poptarts.

[Milt]

yes i have pop tarted, hill humped, and brawled. in other words i have experience in this type of game. and i have rl experience in this type of environment(8yr light infantry vet). the tactics in this type of game are not new. so get off your soapbox with your holier than though attitude. my stance on this patch is that the screen shake was an attempt to reduce the use of a valid tactic that was poorly implemented and punished the wrong player. lights are taking it in the keester while the high alpha boaters and high alpha jumpers are only mildly annoyed. with some players actually experiencing physical discomfort playing this game.

[Kensaisama]

The current argument above aside, the new JJ mechanics are causing eye strain and inducing headaches and nausea after a few times of use, not my idea of fun when playing a video game. And for those who like to scream your a poptart at anyone complaining, sorry I don't poptart, I use JJ's to manuever around in my Light and Medium Mechs.

[B0oN]

Attention !
Wall of text!
Since seeing some technological remarks as to BattleMechs were High-Tech and should have gyro-stabilized weapon mounts and other ultra-high tech shenanigans please remember some things from the lore where this game comes from:

Spoiler

State of humanity @ 3050

1: Humanity is in a bad intellectual shape (read as: so much understanding of how tech works has been lost in the many succesion wars, making techs and scientists look like bumbling troglodytes compared to the era of enlightenment that was the StarLeague)

2: Humanity is barely able to improve their BattleTech until the Clans arrive (!), in fact it´s desperately struggling to keep those factories for BattleMechs, Fusion reactors, Kearny-Fuchida drives and other "high-tech" intact to not lose them, because the knowledge to repair or even improve upon them has been lost since the fall of the StarLeague

3: JJ´s work by turning certain chemicals (quicksilver iirc) into plasma through reactor-heat and channeling that plasma through the thrusters hence generating your lift-off thrust.

4: Even the discovery of an ancient datacore of the StarLeague era by the renowned mercenary unit GrayDeathLegion did not massivley enhance the technological level throughout, because scientists had first to divine the meanings of many fields of Technology (ranging from biology, engineering, farming, medicine, electronics, ...) that were saved in that memorycore which took them months, if not years in some more forgotten fields (K-F tech and such...)

5: Humanity may have BattleMechs as their kings of the battlefield, but truth is that their capabilites are somewhat crippled compared to our nowadays tech.

Example?
Take an AGM-65 Maverick Missile : has a range of over 12NM (nautical miles)/14 miles with an electro-optical/IR/or laser (!) targeting sensor that is able to identify, mark, target and hit objects under near any circumstances

Now take a look at LRMS : range 1000m, guided, but nowhere near as murderously agile as an AGM65

Problem for the InnerSphere is: they just can´t produce small and cheap enough sensoria or guidance systems because the tech has been lost in the quagmires of war and massacre that have been ravaging the Inner Sphere.


*Please bear with me a few more lines, thanks.*

This all condenses down to : Battlemechs are really damn mighty and a masterpiece of tech-gineering, but they have randomnesses to them, like any complex machinery, almost as if they had their own character, like, lets say we have a CTF-3D, fully poptart-able kitted and glorious to behold.

Now we take that ´Phract to the next training field and find out that one of the torso weaponmounts shoots slightly off centre, whereas the arms will fire on point as nice as you wanna have it.

The next mech may have a slight limping gait from some jerky activator that tends to muck up.

The next has odd Hud-behaviours, such as: if temp over 55°C in Cockpit, HUD says: cya and turns off or starts flickering


and the list of mech-quirks and mechanical randomnesses happening in BattleMechs and other BattleTech could indefinitely continue, especially if your mech has been repaired, refitted and partly scrapped over and over again.

Conclusion:

The tech we are using with Battlemechs is in some ways ultra-advanced (Fusion reactors, lasers, particle projecting cannons, gausscannons) and in some things so old-skool (heatsinks, targetting/tracking/guiding devices, ecm, cecm, ...) even nowadays lowest tech nations would fall of their chairs laughing and bringing a Shilka instead of a Jaegermech for AA-duty.

Maybe think of these technological "restricions" when demanding jumpjetting mechs should shoot laser-accurate each and every time...

TL;DR

Hell, any time a mech shoots it is a gamble to hit what he was aiming for.

B.t.T:

Calm them nerves, ladies and gentlemen, I feel JJ´s will get some tweaking (weight/shake Ratio), as to make them less nauseating while still generating enough randomness to not enable each and every warrior to fire them pinpoint all the time when JJ´ing, except you were massively lucky .

Lets see what we are getting in the end, shall we ?
And maybe be a bit mo´ constructive and less abusive (heed this, it is coming from a Khornist at heart) towards each others while we are at it, QUIAFF ?


See you out there

[Firenze]

I would like to say that the hillhumping and poptarting... it really is extremely similar. The Cataphract had to get almost its entire body above the cover with the JJs, thus exposing itself more, and for just as long. Hillhumping, Stalkers and Catapults had over the top arms, and can fire with less exposure.

They are really are too similar. One you expose more, one you have less mobility. Its a choice. (that and my Phract had a smaller alpha than my Land snipers)

[Rashhaverak]

Played a few matches last night with the highlander and spectating after death and noted that:

1. Didn't feel any nausea, but definitely started to experience eye strain and some mental weariness. I think the eye strain was from the violent reticle shake. My eye is focusing on the reticle and trying to move with it, and that became taxing rather quickly. I think the reticle shake may need some reduction in violence, unless the goal is to reduce the amount of time players can play before needing to take a break.

2. The cockpit shake was, at times, bad enough that while spectating I would switch the mech I was riding in to avoid seeing it. It was not motion sickness so much as just extreme annoyance. I wasn't on for that long, but I can appreciate the viewpoints of those who were affected, physically, in a negative manner.

3. The targeting divergence seemed dead on.

Conclusion: based on what I experienced, I'd advocate reducing the violence of both the reticle (a little less violent) and the cockpit shake (a lot less). Keep the target variance where it is. The variance is the real fix to the poptart mechanic anyways, the rest is more cosmetic.

Edited by Rashhaverak, 06 June 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[CatHerder]

My only comment so far is on two fronts:

1) The amount of shake should be proportional to the weight of the mech. The heavier the mech, the more shaking because more thrust is needed to achieve elevation. The lighter the mech, the less shaking. This will give light mechs with JJ a little of their combat agility back. Currently, it's sort of ridiculous that a Jenner can't fire stably while on the jump - this was a signature move for them and one of the things that made them viable combat platforms.

2) The shaking of the target point is fine. However, the cockpit shake could be reduced without affecting the accuracy impact. This is important to counteract the dizzyness that some people seem to be reporting, while not losing the intent of the change (to make it harder to aim while in the air).

Other than that, the change is in the right direction. A bit heavyhanded if you ask me, but in the right direction nonetheless. By heavyhanded I mean that the shake is a bit too much - about 15-20% less would be ideal, IMO. That and the aforementioned issue with weight-to-shake ratio (heavier mechs shake more).

[Milt]

pop tart builds wouldnt even be a problem with proper heat implementation, this was a poorly implemented nerf

[Jess Hazen]

very bad changes especially to light mechs.

jumpjets need a complete overhaul.

as in start over completely and try again.

thank you.

[DeaconW]

Milt, on 06 June 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

yes i have pop tarted, hill humped, and brawled. in other words i have experience in this type of game. and i have rl experience in this type of environment(8yr light infantry vet).

Thank you for your service.

Now, please tell us more about how you used jumpjets and a sniper rifle and got accurate shots during your 8 years of service in the light infantry...with pics if possible!

[DeaconW]

To make my feedback to PGI perfectly clear I sent this via a feedback ticket today:

***

1. THANK YOU, THANK YOU for this fix which corrected the broken poptart meta. The fact that it may have made some of them sick is karmic icing on the cake (with apologies to those non-poptarders who also became ill) to me. I have been a vocal critic of a number of your decisions in the past but I give credit where credit is due.

2. related to #1, please implement a fix which reduces screen shake to help those who get ill, but retains the ineffectiveness of the jumpsnipe meta. I anxiously await this hotfix. If you can do this without the poptart meta returning, I will purchase more MC. That is a promise.

3. Please do not do any "heat fix" balancing until you address convergence. Pls use the same code you used to add a large variance to aimpoints with this fix and apply it in a very small amount to multiple weapons fired at the same time for everything. This is not "breaking the game" or "punishing skill"...it is inserting a bit of realism that almost every other modern shooter(and reality!) has...all your shots don't go to the same point. I realize this may be computationally expensive so perhaps start with aimpoints per mech location (one for each arm, each torso, etc). I believe once you do this, the heat problem will be self correcting as the 6 PPC Stalker(for example) will no longer be able to land every shot on the same mech part consistently and the heat as it stands now will be costly enough. Note that this fix doesn't break from TT or canon...it actually *returns* to it. I think the idea of heat scaling for multiple weapons of the same type that is being considered is contrary to physics and TT and will punish multiple ML builds for the "sins" of the PPC builds in the same way lights are kinda being punished for the sins of the heavy and assault poptart builds with this fix.

4. Please reduce the range of the seismic sensor to 150/300m and have it only function if the possessing mech is stationary. That sensor as it stands right now is an authorized wallhack.

Thx for listening!

****


I encourage everyone who likes this change to send an official feedback via the ticket link. Posting here is good but not everyone at PGI views the forums...

[B0oN]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

To make my feedback to PGI perfectly clear I sent this via a feedback ticket today:

***

1. THANK YOU, THANK YOU for this fix which corrected the broken poptart meta. The fact that it may have made some of them sick is karmic icing on the cake (with apologies to those non-poptarders who also became ill) to me. I have been a vocal critic of a number of your decisions in the past but I give credit where credit is due.

2. related to #1, please implement a fix which reduces screen shake to help those who get ill, but retains the ineffectiveness of the jumpsnipe meta. I anxiously await this hotfix. If you can do this without the poptart meta returning, I will purchase more MC. That is a promise.

3. Please do not do any "heat fix" balancing until you address convergence. Pls use the same code you used to add a large variance to aimpoints with this fix and apply it in a very small amount to multiple weapons fired at the same time for everything. This is not "breaking the game" or "punishing skill"...it is inserting a bit of realism that almost every other modern shooter(and reality!) has...all your shots don't go to the same point. I realize this may be computationally expensive so perhaps start with aimpoints per mech location (one for each arm, each torso, etc). I believe once you do this, the heat problem will be self correcting as the 6 PPC Stalker(for example) will no longer be able to land every shot on the same mech part consistently and the heat as it stands now will be costly enough. Note that this fix doesn't break from TT or canon...it actually *returns* to it. I think the idea of heat scaling for multiple weapons of the same type that is being considered is contrary to physics and TT and will punish multiple ML builds for the "sins" of the PPC builds in the same way lights are kinda being punished for the sins of the heavy and assault poptart builds with this fix.

4. Please reduce the range of the seismic sensor to 150/300m and have it only function if the possessing mech is stationary. That sensor as it stands right now is an authorized wallhack.

Thx for listening!

****


I encourage everyone who likes this change to send an official feedback via the ticket link. Posting here is good but not everyone at PGI views the forums...

Been so bold as to copy and paste your post, Deacon, perfect summary of what I would love to see happen really quick.

[Postumus]

As for the actual shake mechanic, the one thing that should really, really be changed immediately is to reduce the frequency of the reticle shake. It looks like my reticle is having a seizure, not shaking, and that's with 60 fps. If i was running at half that it would just look like it was teleporting. Either way, it looks way bad, like a pong game in fast forward, and it screws the immersion factor.

[DarklightCA]

Sneaky B, on 06 June 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Try to jump while firing a rifle and hit a target from at least 600m away. You are essentially an unstable platform.

IMHO, the reticle shouldn't shake like that as it is very un-HUD like. Should at least have like a bigger reticle indicating the cone spread. Currently, it can visually trigger reflex mechanism especially after long hours of playing.

And that is coming from somebody who despises poptarts.

You are seriously comparing a human and a rifle to a pilot in a advanced peice of machinery? We have the technology today that dampens the effects of such things as thrust. You don't think they would have it then in a advanced combat machine like a mech? You honestly think a military would equip something like jumpjets on sophisticated COMBAT mechs that would severely cripple there ability to fire while in use? That's just plain idiotic.

Edited by DemonicD3, 06 June 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[DeaconW]

Rad Hanzo, on 06 June 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Been so bold as to copy and paste your post, Deacon, perfect summary of what I would love to see happen really quick.

No prob...

[DarklightCA]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

To make my feedback to PGI perfectly clear I sent this via a feedback ticket today:

***

1. THANK YOU, THANK YOU for this fix which corrected the broken poptart meta. The fact that it may have made some of them sick is karmic icing on the cake (with apologies to those non-poptarders who also became ill) to me. I have been a vocal critic of a number of your decisions in the past but I give credit where credit is due.

2. related to #1, please implement a fix which reduces screen shake to help those who get ill, but retains the ineffectiveness of the jumpsnipe meta. I anxiously await this hotfix. If you can do this without the poptart meta returning, I will purchase more MC. That is a promise.

3. Please do not do any "heat fix" balancing until you address convergence. Pls use the same code you used to add a large variance to aimpoints with this fix and apply it in a very small amount to multiple weapons fired at the same time for everything. This is not "breaking the game" or "punishing skill"...it is inserting a bit of realism that almost every other modern shooter(and reality!) has...all your shots don't go to the same point. I realize this may be computationally expensive so perhaps start with aimpoints per mech location (one for each arm, each torso, etc). I believe once you do this, the heat problem will be self correcting as the 6 PPC Stalker(for example) will no longer be able to land every shot on the same mech part consistently and the heat as it stands now will be costly enough. Note that this fix doesn't break from TT or canon...it actually *returns* to it. I think the idea of heat scaling for multiple weapons of the same type that is being considered is contrary to physics and TT and will punish multiple ML builds for the "sins" of the PPC builds in the same way lights are kinda being punished for the sins of the heavy and assault poptart builds with this fix.

4. Please reduce the range of the seismic sensor to 150/300m and have it only function if the possessing mech is stationary. That sensor as it stands right now is an authorized wallhack.

Thx for listening!

****


I encourage everyone who likes this change to send an official feedback via the ticket link. Posting here is good but not everyone at PGI views the forums...

I honestly cannot read this and take this seriously, I can't imagine how the devs are going to feel reading it. Karmatic justice for players that get sick because of the screen shake, really? Because somebody chose to pilot a jump jet sniper in a video game. You seriously need to chill the hell out. Maybe take some medication? (or forgot to).

"Sins of the PPC builds" that is just hilarious, now its not just jump snipers getting you hot and bothered, it's people who equip a weapon in-game you now have a problem with. Perhaps next month we can go and try and remove Gauss rifles, that will show those damn snipers for playing the game it was meant to be played! Oh and attempting to bribe the devs with purchasing MC if they made all your hopes and dreams come true was honestly the funniest thing you have said in that entire post.

[DeaconW]

DemonicD3, on 06 June 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I honestly cannot read this and take this seriously,

Not surprised.

Quote

"Sins of the PPC builds" that is just hilarious, now its not just jump snipers getting you hot and bothered, it's people who equip a weapon in-game you now have a problem with.

You have a reading comprehension problem and/or cannot see or understand quotation marks. I have no issue with PPC's. I use them. I have no issues with sniper builds. I use them. The difference between you and I is that I am willing to propose things for this game that make my game experience more difficult because I care about game balance and my fellow players. This sense of fairness is something you are apparently no afflicted with.

Quote

Oh and attempting to bribe the devs with purchasing MC if they made all your hopes and dreams come true was honestly the funniest thing you have said in that entire post.

Glad it was entertaining to you. Money talks, talking walks. Welcome to the free market.

[Wintersdark]

Arcturious, on 05 June 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Can't stand this sort of outright false argument, yet it is so prevalent.

In the current implementation, a CTF-3D without jump jets is at 800m. Its opponent is another CTF-3D with jump jets. One can hit where it aims. The other has its reticule in exactly the same spot, yet missed. To make it even more obvious. Both mechs have a red CT. One shoots and hits the CT, the other shoots and hits an arm. Both pilots had their reticle over the same point.Both pilots were equally skilled.

Please also dont say that the JJ user will just wait till the fall to take the shot. Technically by having to wait that extra half a second he's already dead, assuming all things were equal.

This is the exact opposite of skill. A random factor, is random. It can't be worked around, it can't be adjusted for. That's the very definition of random.

Not only does the lack of jump jets now allow the first pilot to actually use his skill, but he has better heat efficiency and can move faster. JJ already were balanced as they generate heat, take critical slots and tonnage.

All things being equal - same mech, same pilot skill behind the controls etc, the JJ will actually cause a decrease in performance.

I really don't understand how people can keep trotting out these claims that skill is involved anymore.

Random = Random


Edit: Look, to make this even clearer to stop the inevitable rebuttals. Lets use Jenners as the example. Two Jenners, both with red CT's are 200m away from each other. They both see each other at the same time. One shoots while JJ, the other shoots from the ground. The ground based Jenner hits the CT. The airborne Jenner hits a leg. Both took the same shot. One took skill, the other blind luck. Now before people say they are fixing lights please listen to yourselves. If you acknowledge that it is unfair on lights, then how does that suddenly make it fair for heaves as well? Just because you don't like them? Look in a mirror and be honest with yourselves for all our sakes.

Dude.

Just wait till you let go of the thrust before firing, and you aim just fine. Since the patch, I took my HM out poptarting just to see. It's harder now, because you can't flutter your jets to hover motionless in the air (which against good players was a bad idea anyways) but you can still fire with perfect accuracy. Just wait till you're falling.

Your examples are, quite frankly, both stupid. The jumping CTF and Jenner? They could have elected to fire from a stable platform on the ground. In both cases, the jumping player elected to launch himself in the air, and kept holding that thrust rather than just letting go of the spacebar and taking an accurate shot. If you're firing without accuracy, it's because you're choosing to do that.


All that said... yeah, keep the inaccuracy, but fix the shake. It's really headache inducing for me

[Dude42]

DemonicD3, on 06 June 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

You are seriously comparing a human and a rifle to a pilot in a advanced peice of machinery? We have the technology today that dampens the effects of such things as thrust. You don't think they would have it then in a advanced combat machine like a mech? You honestly think a military would equip something like jumpjets on sophisticated COMBAT mechs that would severely cripple there ability to fire while in use? That's just plain idiotic.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the BattleTech universe. Mechs are not cutting edge pieces of high technology.

[IceSerpent]

DemonicD3, on 06 June 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I honestly cannot read this and take this seriously, I can't imagine how the devs are going to feel reading it. Karmatic justice for players that get sick because of the screen shake, really? Because somebody chose to pilot a jump jet sniper in a video game. You seriously need to chill the hell out. Maybe take some medication? (or forgot to).

I doubt that chilling out would have any effect - somebody who responds to people complaining of being physically hurt with "your tears are delicious", is beyond help IMHO.