91 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

IceSerpent, on 05 June 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

That's debatable - we have no slightest idea whether a given mech is balanced better or worse than a Harrier and center of gravity while mech is in the air depends on where exactly JJs are mounted.

Given that the jets are on the back and the fire doesn't shoot straight down mechs shouldn't be able to jump upwards at all. It should force them into an angled ascent.

[Sephlock]

[Odins Fist]

Shumabot, on 05 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Given that the jets are on the back and the fire doesn't shoot straight down mechs shouldn't be able to jump upwards at all. It should force them into an angled ascent.

I call it the Jump Jet face plant... But it doesn't happen, why you ask..??? It's a game.

[MasterErrant]

Loxx, on 04 June 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Many of the poptart haters have claimed that a continuous vectored thrust would cause "shake" in the vehicle while under the thrust load moment. Allow me to present the Harrier Jump Jet.

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=QVr671ceK9I

By all means please explain where the shake is?

It doesn't bother me that poptarting is practically dead. It was getting boring and honestly I was terrible at it. What I am worried about is the continuous dumbing down of the game with heavy handed nerfs because people would rather complain and create new physical laws out of thin air then engage their brain housing group and come up with creative methods to counter viable tactics. I just hope your happy with what the future is going to bring now that poptarts are gone.
Atlas online?
Splat / streak online?
LRM online?

We'll see. One thing I know, the goods will roll with the punches. The bads will keep trying to dumb down the game until it's Hello Kitty Online.

I agree with you. but you example is invalid. the harrier is a flying vehicle designed to dothat the mech if designed to hop across the feils horizontally. and poptarting isn';t even in the basic game...it is too easy no heat no instability no falling damage for not saving landing power... the heat and the damage were and are better choices to balance the tactic.

[Fate 6]

Rippthrough, on 05 June 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

Ah yes, because two legged 100 ton battlemechs running across rough terrain are known to be so easy to build and control you can buy them in a DIY kit from ebay for $10.


As for all these 'aerospace engineers' in here, talking about flight surfaces and wobbling and all that ****. You're the worst aerospace engineers in the bloody world then, because the reason the flight surfaces are going like mad and the plane is wobbling is because the plane is balanced on top of the thrust column.
It's centre of gravity is much higher than the point at which thrust is applied. Of course it's bloody unstable.

Most mechs have jumpjets on the torsos, way above where the centre of gravity would be, even halfway up the legs is an improvement over either of the aircraft, they also have far smaller profiles in the vertical axis so they would be far MORE stable than the aircraft.
Aerospace engineers that can't do basic physics, that's encouraging. I'll take the train.

You must not have looked at the F35 video I posted. I'll just go over some quick points for you:
1) F35 has a central fan as well as a vectored thrust exhaust in the back - the center of gravity relative to the thrust is really not a huge issue here.
2) Mechs have the jumpjets in the back only. Nothing is stopping them from tilting forwards under the horizontal force of the jets.
3) Mechs have no way of controlling their direction in the air - the thrust is not vectored. Mech tilts sideways? Darn you're gonna land on your arm.
4) All of this is not even taking into account the fact that you could be firing a GIGANTIC weapon while in midair. You could be firing a shell that is 250lb at a speed of ~1km/s.

Your argument that the jumpjets are closer to the CG of the airplane is irrelevant when the mech has no way of actually controlling its flight. It would be like saying if I strapped a small rocket engine to the back of a monkey that it would be more stable than an airplane. In fact, I would bet the monkey could fly better than a mech because it can at least move its arms and legs in such a way as to attempt to maintain balance.

[Rippthrough]

Right, now strap that rocket point first underneath the belly of a model plane and tell me which one flew better*


*Or failed less spectacularly

[Fate 6]

Rippthrough, on 05 June 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Right, now strap that rocket point first underneath the belly of a model plane and tell me which one flew better*


*Or failed less spectacularly

You're still missing the point completely.

If you stuck the jumpjets for the Highlander in its crotch it MIGHT be more stable in terms of balances, but it would still not be able to control the ascent at all, and the MASSIVE force required to lift it would certainly send vibrations through the mech.

Edited by Fate 6, 05 June 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[BlackBeltJones]

This is a game and realism can be subjective but certainly we all want realism to some degree. More important than realism and more important than physical accuracy PGI needs to implement features that do not offend the senses. I can accept and appreciate almost any fantasy, myth, speculative architecture, hyperbole, or misinformation so long as it is offered in a way that doesn't make me say "WTF is this?!" Specifically I can can appreciate Steven Seagal in Under Siege without doubting any of the BS but I couldn't watch the new Star Trek without complaining about everything.

[JP Josh]

get rid of torse convergince.... their no more single pin point high alhpa dmg in one spot... unless your mech has arms then congrats untill our scouts or lrm users do thier job and stip the armer off for us.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thuzel, on 05 June 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Read a really interesting one about half a year ago where someone calculated armor thickness and the average density of an atlas and then went on to show that, given the displaced volume, an atlas would float. Reminded me of the concrete canoe contests so many engineering schools have.

Well, you'd expect all these boats to float, wouldn't you?

Zyllos, on 05 June 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

I think someone sees whats the true problem with this game. Pin point weapon convergence.

Public enemy #1

Actually, I would call the problem more "pin point weapon convergence group fire".

If you had to shoot each weapon individually, convergence would also not be very problematic. having to aim 6 weapons in 4 seconds and maintain good precision is not easy, even with convergence. Heck, even with lead indicators. And while you're shooting them, one by one, you can't turn away from incoming fire or move into cover, either.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 June 2013 - 10:44 PM.

[Yankee77]

Ultimately realism is not a play here.

The point is: was the game more enjoyable with Poptarting as it used to be, or is it more enjoyable.

Considering the "outcry" we see on the forum, compared to other issues that catalyzed the fanbase (like ECM and LRMpocalypse), I'm going to come right out and say that the game is more fun now.

That's my personal experience, and it's what the reaction on the forums tell me.

And really, poptarting was, in fact, a major issue. It broke all the maps and all the efforts the devs went through to try and promote brawling.

Again: brawling has always been one of the primary playstyles that the devs have been trying to promote. That's why most maps have plenty of cover and broken terrain that SHOULD lead to close and furious fights with the enemy. Poptarting broke that, because it turned EVERY piece of cover into a sniper position.

You see, the maps are not just randomly designed by the devs for ***** and giggles. They are carefully engineered to promote certain playstyles, with a careful review of firing positions, sightlines, "traffic flow" and all that jazz. They are designed to have good sniping positions, good scouting routes, alternate routes, and most maps are also designed to have plenty of broken/urban terrain to promote close contact with the enemy.

All that is not a coincidence, it was intentional. BUT poptarters were able to turn EVERY covered position as a sniper position, while STILL being able to exploit that cover (among other things, making LRMs useless against them, when they're the natural anti-sniper weapon in Battletech). That, quite simply, broke the maps.

And judging from the reactions, it looks like the Devs were right to design the maps the way they did, because the moment Poptarting was nerfed and the combat flow normalized things became much more enjoyable. That's why there is no real outcry about the poptart nerf, that's why the vast majority of forum posters are fine with it. Even the anti-nerf threads, like this one, get flooded by people (like me) who counter your arguments.

The game is more fun now. And I'm willing to bet once you've adapted and stepped back from poptarting you'll still have fun.

And in closing, I have to say I am also glad that Poptarting is nerfed for another reason: it looked bloody silly. Thank you PGI for moving the game away from Giant Robots Prancing Through The Skies Online.

Edited by Itkovian, 07 June 2013 - 05:24 AM.