36 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

I really do. I like what it does to the metagame (yeah, I used /that/ word).

Pop-tarting was ruining this game. No, wait, I said that wrong. It /ruined/ this game. It had become unfun to play. Something had to be done.

So jump-jetting was nerfed to make it extremely hard to make accurate shots from the air. Last night happened to be the most fun I've had online in this game in... months. I even took a Dragon or two out for a spin. That has been impossible for almost two months now. It was very refreshing.

There is a problem, however. PGI failed to address the true issues with the game. The jump-jet nerf is a band-aid being put over the problem, hiding it. The problem is /still/ there and hasn't gone away. It has just been partially obscured.

What is this problem?

Well, high-alpha boating, of course. Now, some of you will say, "But Blastman, PGI is going to put a heat penalty to weapon stacking into the game."

That's great and all--but it hurts the majority of players more than it helps, not to mention while violating the Law of Conservation of Energy. In fact, anything I draw from PGI's post about it is speculation as is anyone else's interpretation. We don't know how it will work. As far as we know, it might ONLY effect PPCs and nothing else (this is the ONLY feasible way I see this being done and an excuse could be given such as decreased efficiencies due to feedback from the accelerators interfering with each other--then Conservation of Energy might be still intact).

But, if it affects all weapons, there will be many consequences to mechs that don't need them. Mechs like Jenners, Cicadas, Hunchbacks, Blackjacks--all Mechs that DO NOT need a nerf of any sorts.

So this high-alpha boating... what is the real problem then?

1. It is convergence. Weapons converge too well. I have a nice thread detailing solutions here (among many I've made in the past):

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

2. The broken heat system. There should be penalties for firing at 90% heat with an alpha that generates 35 more points of heat--and these penalties shouldn't be avoidable by shutting down instantly.
2a. There should also be penalties for being at 30%, 50% and 80% heat on a sliding scale.
2b. The heat cap is also too high. 30 pts was the limit in Battletech. I see no reason for something similar here--perhaps a little higher--but not 60 - 70!
2c. Heat needs to bleed off MUCH FASTER than it does now from heatsinks. If you reduce the heatcap, increase dissipation rates. Or not. This is up for debate.

The heat penalties can be found in Battletech's heat penalty scale.

Here are your heat effects:


For your reference, jump-jetting in Battletech incurs a -3 penalty. If you see the table... being at 95% heat would give you a -4 penalty to aiming/weapon accuracy...

All of these should be implemented. Every single one. Let's make heat something our virtual pilots have to worry about, like in the novels, for instance. "Oh, but Blastman, it'll make the game harder and slower..." Yes, it might, but it will be disruptive enough to the pace of battle that it will help PGI achieve their goal! "A Thinking Man's Shooter!" As it says on their main page.

As for Convergence, here's a repost of a picture. Follow the link above to read more. It is a crappy picture done in paint; you get the idea, though.


Don't take the above diagram to say I'm advocating only and all arm weapons to converge. I'm not. Read the linked post above. And another thing: If an arm is missing the actuator it needs to move left or right--no convergence! (i.e. Jaegers and Stalkers, for instance). We could have separate reticles for each hardpoint if we wanted to make it exceedingly skilled.


Remember, we have Inner Sphere technology at the moment. Clans are coming and they have much nastier technology.

Oh, I'm a Clanner, by the way. I'm condoning making it HARDER for me to do honorable combat. I'm fully aware of what our stacked cERLLAS or cERPPCs can do. Or what about stacked cUAC20s. You think Jaegers are bad? How about 80 points of damage in a second to one single torso location.

Yeah. It is coming. And I'm not even talking about clan missiles and more.

These two fundamental problems need to be dealt with now. It is easy to scream for joy and shout, "Ding dong the witch is dead!" But in the end, all we've done is ground the snipers by throwing water on the problem... The water only cools it off; it won't wash it away.



So, just some rambling thoughts but I'll go so far to say we better all be thinking about them now rather than later.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 05 June 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[BlackWidow]

All balancing and whining aside, I actually like the JJ shake because it really adds to the immersive feel of being inside a multi-ton mech you are trying to "fly"

Can't wait to try this out with an OCULUS RIFT and a rumble seat.

[Prezimonto]

I and many others have been saying this for months now. Something is wrong when most load-outs earn me at best 1.2 to 1 K:D, even if I win, while dual ac20/gauss/quad ppc builds earn me 2 or 3K;D win or lose. That's just broken game mechanics, and it's because of high-damage, pin point alpha strikes, with no zoom-in or calibration time.

An alternative fix is to put in hard point sizes.

Edited by Prezimonto, 05 June 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I have a little trouble getting my large lasers to stay on target when I jump, but they do hit under thrust. My Gauss... Not a chance!

Seems fine to me.

@Prez
Dual Gauss an AC20s are the BFG in the game. hey can strip the most armor and ruin instantly any damaged mech. That is how it is supposed to work.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 June 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

@ Joseph: They aren't supposed to hit one single location with both weapons in Battletech. The TT damage values were balanced with this in mind. 20 Pts was the absolute maximum to a single spot on a mech from one weapon. Add in convergence and all of a sudden we're doubling or more the potential damage to a single spot in a single "round."

You could hit that same spot with a second weapon in the same round--but the odds were low. With convergence, the odds are 90% or greater, every time.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 June 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

I have a little trouble getting my large lasers to stay on target when I jump, but they do hit under thrust. My Gauss... Not a chance!

Seems fine to me.

@Prez
Dual Gauss an AC20s are the BFG in the game. hey can strip the most armor and ruin instantly any damaged mech. That is how it is supposed to work.

Well then "how its supposed to work" is wrong. It makes for bad games with no variety when you act like an overpowered build is how it's "supposed" to work.

[Joseph Mallan]

I would hardly call the Jager40 OP. It is a Mech wrecker as it is intended to be in close range. But damage drops off quickly over range. As I said before, with double armor a dual AC20 delivers the damage a single AC20 would to regular armor levels.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister Blastman, on 05 June 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

@ Joseph: They aren't supposed to hit one single location with both weapons in Battletech. The TT damage values were balanced with this in mind. 20 Pts was the absolute maximum to a single spot on a mech from one weapon. Add in convergence and all of a sudden we're doubling or more the potential damage to a single spot in a single "round."

You could hit that same spot with a second weapon in the same round--but the odds were low. With convergence, the odds are 90% or greater, every time.

6,7,8 are the top 3 rolls on a 2d6 bell curve. Tell me again ow hard it is to hit the same location more than once? MWO double the armor to "improve endurance". So If I want to kill you, and quickly, I need to bring twice as much punch to achieve that goal.

[LordBraxton]

the point is the game is still

boat or go home AC\40\LRM60\4-6PPCs etc etc

yes dual AC\20s can count as a boat, because 90% of your free weight is dedicated to 1 weapon system

the question is

do you like the game with boats? or want to see change?

the community seems pretty divided

Edited by LordBraxton, 05 June 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mister Blastman, on 05 June 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

There is a problem, however. PGI failed to address the true issues with the game. The jump-jet nerf is a band-aid being put over the problem, hiding it. The problem is /still/ there and hasn't gone away. It has just been partially obscured.

What is this problem?

Well, high-alpha boating, of course.

I'm glad the OP likes the reduction in Poptarting, but the Jump Jet shake has nothing to do with High-Alpha boating, so PGI did not really miss the point. The points are unrelated.

Also, your disdain for the sliding heat scale seems to come from an assumed risk that all weapons will be treated exactly the same (the same penalties for multiple-firings being applied to MLs as PPCs, etc.). PGI said they would be investigating this on a weapon-by-weapon basis, so a stacking heat penalty being applied to PPCs won't really be ruining the game for Jenner Pilots in the slightest bit. That risk of all weapons being treated the same probably won't be actualized.

There have been several people citing the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy regarding how a stacking heat penalty would be physically unrealistic, and there are many people who say that physics don't really apply to big stompy robot video games. It really depends on what argument you're having at the time, but some people are curiously flexible with their adherence to how tightly physics needs to be coupled with the game. "Heat" in the context of MW:O is a penalty created by a gaming designer. It's a reflection of a physical concept, but because this is a game and "heat" was designed to be a game mechanic more than a realization of physics, then I think "heat" should be treated as a game mechanic primarily, and as a physical manifestation only on a secondary basis.

Since we're dealing with anthropomorphic Mecha, I feel like a good law to call upon would be the 2 Laws of Thermal Tissue Damage. Yeah, they're not laws, but still bear with me.

Firewalkers can walk across hot coals without injury because the amount of heat they absorb in their feet per unit of time is tolerable, but outright standing on hot coals will severely burn your feet because the amount of heat absorbed/unit time is too great. A Firewalker can spend a total of 6 seconds of contact time with the hot coals while walking across a fire bed, and this is acceptable without tissue damage - that's akin to Chain-Firing 6 PPCs. A Firewalker who stands in place on the hot coals for 6 seconds-straight will find themselves on the way to the Hospital for a skin graft and other possible surgeries.

Alternatively, and a much shorter example, touching a hot frying pan 6 times in timed-succession will only burn you a little bit, however touching a frying pan that 6 times hotter just once will burn the **** out of your flesh. I mean, a hot fryinfg pan is one thing.. they can cook meat, right? Now.. one SIX TIMES HOTTER? I mean, a glowing, white-hot, nearly melting steel pan... Imagine touching that once.

Those two situations serve well to explain why a sliding heat scale is applicable. The Devs aren't meaning to apply additional heat because the weapons are physically generating more thermal vibrational energy, they are applying an additional heat penalty as a reflection of the Harm/Risk of Harm your Mech is supposed to be experiencing. in this situation Heat is being used primarily as a game mechanic, and only secondarily as a reflection of the physical reality of Vehicular Warfare.

At least, that's how I see it....

Edited by Prosperity Park, 05 June 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

LordBraxton, on 05 June 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

the point is the game is still

boat or go home AC\40\LRM60\4-6PPCs etc etc

yes dual AC\20s can count as a boat, because 90% of your free weight is dedicated to 1 weapon system

the question is

do you like the game with boats? or want to see change?

the community seems pretty divided

I like the game with Boats hat are IN the game. I am using an inner sphere version of a Hunchback IIC. If a Jager40 is bad How about a Hunchback 80???

[Mister Blastman]

Prosperity Park, on 05 June 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

I'm glad the OP likes the reduction in Poptarting, but the Jump Jet shake has nothing to do with High-Alpha boating, so PGI did not really miss the point. The points are unrelated.

Ah but you must admit... if we never had a high-alpha game like we've had for the last couple of months, jump jets would never have been an issue because pop-tarting wouldn't have existed in as potent a form as it had. Thus, jump-jet shake has everything to do with it. It was used as a mechanism to circumvent the problem without fully addressing it.

If PPCs/Gauss were never allowed to be focused like they are... then the worst people would be complaining about is Jenners flying through the air along with your occasional Trebuchet and streaking Highlander. All of which aren't game-breaking, unlike PPC/Gauss jump-snipers.

Quote

Also, your disdain for the sliding heat scale seems to come from an assumed risk that all weapons will be treated exactly the same (the same penalties for multiple-firings being applied to MLs as PPCs, etc.). PGI said they would be investigating this on a weapon-by-weapon basis, so a stacking heat penalty being applied to PPCs won't really be ruining the game for Jenner Pilots in the slightest bit. That risk of all weapons being treated the same probably won't be actualized.

I'm hoping your right here and I addressed that possibility in my original post. If the penalty is applied to just PPCs and nothing else, well, that is fine in my book as long as they come up with a creative way to explain it so us Physics nerds can be appeased. Star Trek did it all the time, so can PGI.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 June 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

I would hardly call the Jager40 OP. It is a Mech wrecker as it is intended to be in close range. But damage drops off quickly over range. As I said before, with double armor a dual AC20 delivers the damage a single AC20 would to regular armor levels.

It's a mech wrecker at close range, yes. And it's ludicrously easy to avoid getting shot before being in that range on every single map outside of alpine. As for a "regular" ac20. Who gives a damn? That is and will always be a nonsense argument.

In TT you know what you did? You controlled 6 mechs at once. One of your mechs got one shotted? Oh well, you have 5 more. That doesn't fly in this game where it takes 15 minutes to get into combat once, getting one or two shotted is terrible. The AC40 jager is the best heavy mech by a rather distinct margin. It's better than anything below its weight class, and it's really only trumped by atlasses, highlanders, and PPC stalkers. 40 point pinpoint alphas is not something this game was built for, it takes most of the games combat mechanics and makes them redundant. Ac40 heavies that can travel that fast is a problem, they one shot lights and they two shot most mediums, that is a problem. That you can't accept it s a problem... Well, we've had the whole discussion about what I think of your critical views of the game.

[Prezimonto]

I don't mind that those builds exist. I actually think that the K2 is a reasonable balance on the Heavy load of 2x large ballistics. You have to take a tiny engine to fit 2x ac20's, the location of the points is low on the mech, and the size of the CT/head mean you have to swivel and reaquire a cross hair fix all the time.

The Jaeger get's high mount points, on arms, away from CT, and a better head hit box. It can roll at good speed with an XL and ac20's making staying away from it much harder.

Why does a Jaeger get perfect convergence with it's arms if it doesn't have arm actuators? Same thing for a K2's arms. The horizontal arm actuator is a actually more of a nerf for most builds/levels of skill, especially once you unlock the faster arm movement... it becomes exceptionally difficult to hold a specific point for any amount of time when it bounces around that fast. This heavily benefits high-alpha vs. dps weapons.

None of that changes the fact that you get perfect, automatic convergence of all weapons at all ranges. This is somewhat okay for light weapons, but again high-alpha weapons vastly outclass dps style weaponry.

If it took something like 1 sec/5tons of equipment converging to obtain a perfect convergence it would be much less of an issue. You could still get your great kill shots, but you have to be willing to stay still and be a target for a little while. Much like LRM's already have to do.
Example: I fix my cross hair on target, if I fire immediately, everything works, but the weapons are at near to their physical spread of their distance on my mech. As I hold them at a fixed range, they begin converging, quickly, onto the target... nearly instantly for medium lasers, but in 1 second for large lasers, and in ~3 second for large ballistic weapon.

This isn't a huge nerf to the weapons themselves, it's a nerf to total builds. As you point out the Gauss and AC20 are the BFG's of this setting. They're pretty well balanced at the moment, individually.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 05 June 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

That you can't accept it s a problem... Well, we've had the whole discussion about what I think of your critical views of the game.

he view went both ways Shum.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

he view went both ways Shum.

Fortunately I have the righteous justification of being right helping me sleep at night.

[Jman5]

I honestly believe that the issue of dealing with boating PPCs is less of a balance problem and more of a tactical problem.

What commonly happens in games is that people will spot that PPC stalker boat and instinctively sit behind some hill as cover. They try to be careful poking out to take pot shots at the enemy, but it's just a matter of time. Either your teammates will slip up and die or you will poke out at a bad time and get crippled.

The solution is to essentially charge the machine gun nest and force a protracted fight at close range. Of course, I'm not suggesting a straight charge over 800 meters of open ground. You want to come in from the side and use various cover as you close the gap. The key is to close the distance and steel yourself against the punishment it will probably dish out before dying. However, assuming tonnage parity, you will be at an advantage if you can get within brawling range.

It's even trickier when there are multiple ppc boats covering eachother because then you need to coordinate your charge.


The instinct to sit behind cover and wait for the opportune moment is wrong and will just give him the time to shoot/cooldown, shoot/cooldown until he eventually mops up your team. The longer you leave them on the battlefield, the worse it gets. Even if it means crippling your mech, you should always make it a point to try and take a PPC boat out ASAP. Same is true for ac/40 mechs, although the opposite is needed to kill them (keep them at arms length).

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 05 June 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Fortunately I have the righteous justification of being right helping me sleep at night.

Funny I have the same justification Shum.

[Mechteric]

The convergence train I think has left some time ago. People expect that where they point their mouse is where the thing fires. And that's ok.

The answer lies in the heat system. That is where they can truly make a difference in the game. High heat penalties would do absolute wonders for the balance of the game, it just needs to make running a 6ppc shutdown stalker a painful experience rather than just an annoyance of the occasional shutdown.

[Shumabot]

Quote

It's even trickier when there are multiple ppc boats covering eachother because then you need to coordinate your charge.

Thats nonsense, that assumes they can't just coordinate being charged. You'll lose half your mechs before you get there and then they'll just RAW DPS you to death. Assaults are too slow to survive the charge, most heavies and mediums are too flimsy to win the dps struggle once they've made it, and most lights are going to get one shotted.

You can't charge them with equal weight since they're ALL ASSAULTS, and you can't charge them with faster under weight mechs because once you get there they'll just kick your ***.

CapperDeluxe, on 05 June 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

The convergence train I think has left some time ago. People expect that where they point their mouse is where the thing fires. And that's ok.

The answer lies in the heat system. That is where they can truly make a difference in the game. High heat penalties would do absolute wonders for the balance of the game, it just needs to make running a 6ppc shutdown stalker a painful experience rather than just an annoyance of the occasional shutdown.

So you'll solve PPC (but not gauss) boating by screwing over every single energy build in the game. Brilliant. The 3ppc+gauss highlander doesn't exactly need to overheat to demolish you, but the Jenner F and any laser hunchback certainly needs to run hot to do anything.

Heat penalties are an awful idea that don't address the core issues at all.