77 replies to this topic

[PanzerMagier]

blinkin, on 26 June 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

brawlers already murder snipers when they can get in close. the primary issue is closing the gap right now, and buffing damage won't help with that.

if we really want to buff brawlers then make terrain in maps more complex. the only time i really feel that snipers have an unfair advantage is on alpine peaks, because the map is so incredible open and easy to spot targets from long distances. even tourmaline has low places that you can use to sneak around behind targets, and i have several times.

Then why the **** when I spend the better part of 3 minutes to sneak up on a 3ppc+gaus misery only to get out brawled by it? Something wrong with your theory there.

[Miekael]

Give it a bump.

[blinkin]

PanzerMagier, on 26 June 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Then why the **** when I spend the better part of 3 minutes to sneak up on a 3ppc+gaus misery only to get out brawled by it? Something wrong with your theory there.

your lack of dodging skill? i haven't ever had issues with any lone sniper mech once i got in close. all it takes is a couple misses and then they shut themselves down. after that i get to have my way with them. brawling DOES NOT mean get within 100m and then roshambo until one of you is dead.

i have done this several times in the past couple weeks with my catapult A1 (which i generally hate and sold once i had finished the skill tree, because it had major heat issues and i like the C4 much more). most of these snipers are incredibly slow because they traded a decent engine for more alpha damage. the speed on most stalkers is so bad that once i get behind them they don't even get to look at me any more. all of this with my 86kph catapults. if i am in my jenner then it stops being any sort of challenge and i am just being a bully.

[blinkin]

Mr 144, on 26 June 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

I'll bite....what kinda brawler 'murders' snipers currently?

my catapults do just fine. last time i had an issue with a single sniper was because i kept getting stuck on the frigging crystal cliffs all over tourmaline.

[Mr 144]

blinkin, on 26 June 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

your lack of dodging skill? i haven't ever had issues with any lone sniper mech once i got in close. all it takes is a couple misses and then they shut themselves down. after that i get to have my way with them. brawling DOES NOT mean get within 100m and then roshambo until one of you is dead.

i have done this several times in the past couple weeks with my catapult A1 (which i generally hate and sold once i had finished the skill tree, because it had major heat issues and i like the C4 much more). most of these snipers are incredibly slow because they traded a decent engine for more alpha damage. the speed on most stalkers is so bad that once i get behind them they don't even get to look at me any more. all of this with my 86kph catapults. if i am in my jenner then it stops being any sort of challenge and i am just being a bully.

So seeing as you're dodging the question on what builds all these 'murdering' brawlers are using...I'm just gonna assume Jenners and catapult then...lulz. Cat's in a brawl against a ERPPC/Gauss build...good one. Jenners....oh my...yes sooo incredibly hard to hit a jenner...once...quite the brawlers ya got goin' there.

blinkin, on 26 June 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

my catapults do just fine. last time i had an issue with a single sniper was because i kept getting stuck on the frigging crystal cliffs all over tourmaline.

If I could choose a single chassis that absolutely gives me no fear whatsover right now....it would be a (non PPC/Gauss) Catapult. Thanks though...it really gave me a perspective on why some people are against SRM buffed to 2.5. Pretty much exactly what I expected.

Edited by Mr 144, 26 June 2013 - 11:41 PM.

[blinkin]

Mr 144, on 26 June 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

So seeing as you're dodging the question on what builds all these 'murdering' brawlers are using...I'm just gonna assume Jenners and catapult then...lulz. Cat's in a brawl against a ERPPC/Gauss build...good one. Jenners....oh my...yes sooo incredibly hard to hit a jenner...once...quite the brawlers ya got goin' there.

and fail

blinkin, on 26 June 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

my catapults do just fine. last time i had an issue with a single sniper was because i kept getting stuck on the frigging crystal cliffs all over tourmaline.

i missed your question at first because of the new page.

the only issue i have with stalkers is they tend to be extra chewy. lacking the ability to turn your head kinda makes them easy prey for my catapults. a well piloted highlander is far worse because of their maneuverability combined with their armor.

and as far as my jenners go most can't hit me that once because, again i don't let them look at me and on the occasions they do i slap them in the face with an ERPPC round to disrupt their aim. the recurring theme here is that stalkers are slooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww and the sniper builds are even slower.

my jenner dies on a regular basis, but it is rarely to any of the sniper boats and on those few occasions i was almost always doing something incredibly stupid.

Edited by blinkin, 26 June 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tennex, on 05 June 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

they can't increase SRM damage without increasing sSRM damage because they use the same missile

Do we know that's really the case?

if it is the case, then the new "bone-aiming" mechanism they are working on might do the trick. If SSRMs spread just as "badly" as SRMs, never miss, but do no more CT focusing then SRMs do, then the 0.5 ton extra cost per launche rwould be fair and they could have the same damage per missile.

[blinkin]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 June 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Do we know that's really the case?

if it is the case, then the new "bone-aiming" mechanism they are working on might do the trick. If SSRMs spread just as "badly" as SRMs, never miss, but do no more CT focusing then SRMs do, then the 0.5 ton extra cost per launche rwould be fair and they could have the same damage per missile.

not my preferred method for balancing streaks, but i think it could be acceptable.

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 June 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Do we know that's really the case?

if it is the case, then the new "bone-aiming" mechanism they are working on might do the trick. If SSRMs spread just as "badly" as SRMs, never miss, but do no more CT focusing then SRMs do, then the 0.5 ton extra cost per launche rwould be fair and they could have the same damage per missile.

No I have to disagree - the Streak SRM don't hit a target with better chance as a normal SRM 2.

To give it that fire forget mode results in that SSRM hit the target with better chances - even at long range...no need to lead...just wait until the red circle.

So obviously a SSRM is as effective as a SRM4 (on the long run - even better and simpler to use vs light mechs)

So with that big advantage - i really would think that the SRM should deal much more damage - (at least the SRM is dumb fire - a rocket - so you don't have a guiding system (I'm still curious how the Artemis IV - should work) so that you have more weigt available for the warhead

[Mr 144]

blinkin, on 26 June 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

and fail

i missed your question at first because of the new page.

the only issue i have with stalkers is they tend to be extra chewy. lacking the ability to turn your head kinda makes them easy prey for my catapults. a well piloted highlander is far worse because of their maneuverability combined with their armor.

and as far as my jenners go most can't hit me that once because, again i don't let them look at me and on the occasions they do i slap them in the face with an ERPPC round to disrupt their aim. the recurring theme here is that stalkers are slooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww and the sniper builds are even slower.

my jenner dies on a regular basis, but it is rarely to any of the sniper boats and on those few occasions i was almost always doing something incredibly stupid.

Ok, the Jenner is irrelevant as #1..it's not a 'brawler', and #2...ERPPC (which the contention is those kinds of weapon vs. SRMs). Amusing though in your defense of SRM brawling, one of the 2 builds you listed is a light mech running an ERPPC...D'Oh!

The Catapult is a horrible mech for brawling...period. The only times they were good is with full SRM at 2.5 + Splash + Huge Torso Twist + Point blank (or sweet-spot) clustered flight path + few mechs running 33+ pinpoint alpha's for one-shot kills (due to heat, convergence, and hardpoints on available chassis at that time) in order to overcome the head hitbox and easy to pop ears. There torso twist has been reduced to simply good, there is no relevant splash damage for SRMs, the new flight path removes the good clustering (but does help with LBX style range usefullness I guess), there is no longer convergence, and less heat on ranged weapons. All of the things that made the SplatCat good simply no longer exist...base missile damage being the least possible cause of any percieved OP'dness. 2.0 damage...much less 2.5 damage, will not resurect the glory days of Splat due to the 5 other nerfs/buffs which affected the build....2.5 simply can make them viable once again.

You seem to like completely irrelevant ancedotal examples, so consider my 733 abuser pugging build...
Gauss
2xERPPC
4xSSRM (with BAP of course)
Single JJ (for mobility mainly and minor ridgeline sniping)
~60kph
and...AMS, which with the damage buff coupled with SRM flight pattern...works very effeciently against SRMs fired at any kind of descent range...negating the 'increased range' given by the nerfed flight path.

Or how about Jagers... ~78 kph AC/40+2xML...or ~64kph Dual Gauss + 4xML? Again...overwhelming to SRMs..

Give me an example of any build that prominently uses SRMs that beats them. There is simply no way a SplatCat in it's current form touches it. Even the basic SRM+2xML+AC/20 'Brawler' Atlas or Highlander suffers soley due to the inclusion of SRMs over Larger (read:range/pinpoint) energy weapons and Streaks instead. The SRM awesome, Jager-A, or SRM+ML Stalker are simply pathetic in current form.

The point you seem to be missing, is there is no reason to use SRMs...even the Cent is completely overpowered by the ML BJ...even with the benefit of zombie mode. Trebs or Hunchies with SRMs? not a chance of balanced viability. 2.0 damage will not be enough to change any of this. Personal examples of ancedotal success running an obviously grossly underpowered weapon system is not a case for balance.

Edited by Mr 144, 27 June 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Kmieciu]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 June 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Do we know that's really the case?

Every weapon in MWO can have different damage stat, because damage is not tied to ammunition.

Edited by Kmieciu, 27 June 2013 - 02:27 AM.

[xenoglyph]

Kmieciu, on 27 June 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

Every weapon in MWO can have different damage stat, because damage is not tied to ammunition.

Truth.

[blinkin]

Mr 144, on 27 June 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Ok, the Jenner is irrelevant as #1..it's not a 'brawler', and #2...ERPPC (which the contention is those kinds of weapon vs. SRMs). Amusing though in your defense of SRM brawling, one of the 2 builds you listed is a light mech running an ERPPC...D'Oh!

The Catapult is a horrible mech for brawling...period. The only times they were good is with full SRM at 2.5 + Splash + Huge Torso Twist + Point blank (or sweet-spot) clustered flight path + few mechs running 33+ pinpoint alpha's for one-shot kills (due to heat, convergence, and hardpoints on available chassis at that time) in order to overcome the head hitbox and easy to pop ears. There torso twist has been reduced to simply good, there is no relevant splash damage for SRMs, the new flight path removes the good clustering (but does help with LBX style range usefullness I guess), there is no longer convergence, and less heat on ranged weapons. All of the things that made the SplatCat good simply no longer exist...base missile damage being the least possible cause of any percieved OP'dness. 2.0 damage...much less 2.5 damage, will not resurect the glory days of Splat due to the 5 other nerfs/buffs which affected the build....2.5 simply can make them viable once again.

You seem to like completely irrelevant ancedotal examples, so consider my 733 abuser pugging build...
Gauss
2xERPPC
4xSSRM (with BAP of course)
Single JJ (for mobility mainly and minor ridgeline sniping)
~60kph
and...AMS, which with the damage buff coupled with SRM flight pattern...works very effeciently against SRMs fired at any kind of descent range...negating the 'increased range' given by the nerfed flight path.

Or how about Jagers... ~78 kph AC/40+2xML...or ~64kph Dual Gauss + 4xML? Again...overwhelming to SRMs..

Give me an example of any build that prominently uses SRMs that beats them. There is simply no way a SplatCat in it's current form touches it. Even the basic SRM+2xML+AC/20 'Brawler' Atlas or Highlander suffers soley due to the inclusion of SRMs over Larger (read:range/pinpoint) energy weapons and Streaks instead. The SRM awesome, Jager-A, or SRM+ML Stalker are simply pathetic in current form.

The point you seem to be missing, is there is no reason to use SRMs...even the Cent is completely overpowered by the ML BJ...even with the benefit of zombie mode. Trebs or Hunchies with SRMs? not a chance of balanced viability. 2.0 damage will not be enough to change any of this. Personal examples of ancedotal success running an obviously grossly underpowered weapon system is not a case for balance.

i like my ERPPC jenner. it gets me kills and does an amazing job of distracting mechs on the enemy team. not my best mech ever but that is just because i have never been quite as good with light mechs as i have with others. i added the jenner because you claim the stalker to be an unstoppable Juggernaut, i was pointing out that it has plenty of weaknesses. i was also reinforcing the fact that it moves like a beached whale.



"catapult is a horrible mech for brawling period" have been using my cat C4 since early closed beta. i switched to the A1 for a while to train up skills, but now i am done and i sold that piece of crap. you say my catapults are worthless yet i can out brawl most snipers when you can't (do you see the minor flaw in your logic?)

you keep talking about these SRM that have been nerfed into oblivion, but i have personally 2 shotted atlai and other smaller mechs several times in the past few days. when i can walk up behind a hunchback and end his day with one pull of the trigger, then i don't call those weapons weak.

[Mr 144]

Oh, this troll is just priceless....

blinkin, on 27 June 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

i like my ERPPC jenner. it gets me kills and does an amazing job of distracting mechs on the enemy team. not my best mech ever but that is just because i have never been quite as good with light mechs as i have with others. i added the jenner because you claim the stalker to be an unstoppable Juggernaut, i was pointing out that it has plenty of weaknesses. i was also reinforcing the fact that it moves like a beached whale.

#1...I never mentioned a stalker other than as an example SRMs with the gimped brawling variety...fail

#2...An ERPPC Jenner used as an example of Brawling SRMs....fail

#3...equates 'distracting' with brawling...fail

Quote

"catapult is a horrible mech for brawling period" have been using my cat C4 since early closed beta. i switched to the A1 for a while to train up skills, but now i am done and i sold that piece of crap. you say my catapults are worthless yet i can out brawl most snipers when you can't (do you see the minor flaw in your logic?)

#4...So the A1 is a 'piece of crap' but it's used as the poster child of SRM OP'dness...cough, cough...2 shot atlai BS in a C4 now? lulz...fail

#5...This is a discussion about balance, not personal achievment. No idea other than trollish behavior why you would question my skills when I have given no personal ancedotal 'evidence' on my abilities either way...personal attack...fail

Quote

you keep talking about these SRM that have been nerfed into oblivion, but i have personally 2 shotted atlai and other smaller mechs several times in the past few days. when i can walk up behind a hunchback and end his day with one pull of the trigger, then i don't call those weapons weak.

#6...Like in other threads that you've made this claim in....this is simply BS. Since point blank range no longer gives any major spread advantage, and if you understand splash mechanics at all...there is no way you are 2 shotting an atlas. That would reguire roughly 80% spread accuracy to the rear CT on both shots. This simply does not happen....fail

and finally....

You quote my entire post filled with facts and examples...yet respond only with 'I'm good, you're bad'...no facts...no 'logic' whatsoever...and are still hung up on ERPPC Jenners as an example of why SRM brawling is good...derpity derp derp.

Splendid argument ole' chap...I rest my case.

[blinkin]

Mr 144, on 27 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Oh, this troll is just priceless....



#1...I never mentioned a stalker other than as an example SRMs with the gimped brawling variety...fail

#2...An ERPPC Jenner used as an example of Brawling SRMs....fail

#3...equates 'distracting' with brawling...fail



#4...So the A1 is a 'piece of crap' but it's used as the poster child of SRM OP'dness...cough, cough...2 shot atlai BS in a C4 now? lulz...fail

#5...This is a discussion about balance, not personal achievment. No idea other than trollish behavior why you would question my skills when I have given no personal ancedotal 'evidence' on my abilities either way...personal attack...fail



#6...Like in other threads that you've made this claim in....this is simply BS. Since point blank range no longer gives any major spread advantage, and if you understand splash mechanics at all...there is no way you are 2 shotting an atlas. That would reguire roughly 80% spread accuracy to the rear CT on both shots. This simply does not happen....fail

and finally....

You quote my entire post filled with facts and examples...yet respond only with 'I'm good, you're bad'...no facts...no 'logic' whatsoever...and are still hung up on ERPPC Jenners as an example of why SRM brawling is good...derpity derp derp.

Splendid argument ole' chap...I rest my case.

yes you do know how to spell "troll"

look through my posts. i never once used the words brawl and jenner in the same sentence.

blinkin, on 27 June 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

i added the jenner because you claim the stalker to be an unstoppable Juggernaut, i was pointing out that it has plenty of weaknesses. i was also reinforcing the fact that it moves like a beached whale.

the A1 is a piece of crap because of heat issues and i have to trade off quite a bit for the extra 2 SRM6. i hate the damned thing and sold it once i had it trained up, BUT it still can kill most mechs with 2 volleys to the rear or less (this takes a grand total of 4 seconds to do).

yup i prefer my C4 which requires 3 volleys, it also has medium lasers for fighting light mechs more effectively and a full compliment of 4 jump jets instead of the 1 that was on my A1.

it doesn't matter if i understand splash mechanics because I HAVE DONE IT. i, myself, personally have watched an atlas go from full health to dead from 2 volleys (72 missiles) into the back of a healthy atlas at 30m and have done this repeatedly. and because i don't want to have the argument yet again, this has all happened since the last major patch on the 18th and most of them since the mini patch that came after.

[BlackDrakon]

The real brawler is that mech that can carry 3 or more SRMS and weights at least 80 tons. Best brawler in the game? Atlas. Sub par with the STK-5M who can carry 5 SRM6 with 5 tons of ammo. Both mechs are broken since they nerfed SRM's.

The real feared SK was the CN9-A which has zombie capabilities running around 92 kph with 3 srms6+ artemis and 2 ml, could kill an atlas from the behind with 3 alphas.

Which one of those do u fear now when they get near you? none.

Im really looking forward to the new buff. I hope they do it, seems like 2.0 will be the sweet spot, but I do think that we need a better flight path for artemis use and maybe a little bit more damage. 2.2-2.5 would have been ideal in my opinion.

Lets wait and see, right?

[Umbra8]

I get a sense of comfort seeing an opponent using SRM's in the current meta. It means I can ignore them and focus on a real threat.

...

I actually do that. Successfully. That's the whole point. SRM-heavy mechs can be ignored and from a balance perspective that's really sad.

[BlackDrakon]

Well seems like we are getting 2.0 damage to SRM's tomorrow thx to the poll http://mwomercs.com/...pdate-feedback/

Paul said this in this link http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

"Update July 15/2013:

We were able to sneak the SRM damage buff into the build for tomorrow's patch. As of tomorrow, SRM damage will be set temporarily to 2.0 (until the hit detection issue is addressed) taking into account the overwhelming response in the buff poll.

Investigation started: For the 30th patch, we are looking at possibly bumping PPC and ERPPC base heat generation. If we do bump the base heat, the heat scale for these weapons will be lowered. This is just an update and not a guarantee that this change will be added to the game."

So, lets try and see if they are working now. Ill update tomorrow.