188 replies to this topic

[Kay Oss]

I think the stalker 5M is a great mech and boating SSRMs is the reason why. You can have nearly the SSRM potency of a cat, why simultaneously boating 4 Large Lasers. Nothing wrong with that! Right now it is my favorite mech/build.

If light mechs come to bother you they will quickly realize it's a bad idea when all those SSRMs hit. Anything larger and you just make sure your large lasers are hitting CT when you shoot because that's where all them SSRMs are going. Runs a little hot with all the lasers but you can alpha a couple times and continue on with steady SSRMs if need be.

[Just wanna play]

and he also says stalkers are best assaults simply because they can boat the most weapons

Sam Slade, on 06 June 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Also, what the guy above me said: the Atlas RS is an easy takedown... blast away side torso. Suddenly it's a really bid Medium firepower wise. Atlas D is a zombie without equal.

well i kind meant that not all rs are easy take downs and its only his awkward sniper build that he feels is what rs are all about is an easy take down but yeah you get the point imo hes missing a bit of depth

Edited by Just wanna play, 06 June 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Putting this kind of stuff together takes a fair whack of time and effort and i salute the work you have put in. I hope you get a good bit of community feedback to keep working and improving on this! I will give some more myself, but since im at work i must be quick

• The star system seems to be a little biased towards the assaults
  
• I think the star rating could be expanded, either make it five stars or have a few categories e.g. speed, firepower, versatility - this would make the rating system more objective. You can then create an overal rating using these ratings.
  
• COM-3D (Think thats the ecm one?) should have one more star
  
• Dragons - I think you have been a bit harsh, some people really dont like these but in the right hands they can be devestating. Only the other night i had a brawl where i got 5 kills and 900 damage with a 'one star' 5N.
  
• The K2? The K2 gets a comstar? Why not give this to the Jager with dual gauss which does the job of the cat better and occupies more of a niche - the weapons are high for minimal exposure over cover..

Cheers

WB

[Kaeb Odellas]

The Hunchback 4P and Yen-Lo-Wang dominated their brackets in the Mediums tournament. They're both deserving of more than 2 stars.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 06 June 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[80Bit]

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

The Hunchback 4P and Yen-Lo-Wang dominated their brackets in the Mediums tournament. They're both deserving of more than 2 stars.

Please refer to Important Note #2.

Players dominating in the Medium tournament are not exactly average or typical. The 4P and Wang both have unique abilities that can make them very effective, but they come with a high skill requirement. The 4P is high on that competitive tier list, and I have no argument with that. But in the hands of lower skill players the heat management and hunch protection required diminish the performance of the chassis.

[Deathlike]

The 3L specs are wrong.. it has 3E + 2M.

Anyways, I can kinda tell you haven't used some mechs, like the BJ. The BJ-1X is the most mobile of strikers.. faster than the HBK-4P... but probably won't compare the same in terms of torso twist or power. It can at least reasonably chase lights, but it's not great for fighting against them head o).

The STK-5M's greatest benefit is the CT energy hardpoint. If you wanted to ever go 5 LL, that hardpoint works out for the best (you can fit more DHS in that than the 3F/5S could even attempt), plus it can still be semi-effective when its torsos are gone (by then, it's close to death anyways). Same could be said for the Misery, but the 5M's benefit technically comes from the added "protection" because of the missile bay doors for the arms (like most Stalkers... 4N has only half the protection, Misery has none of it).

Edited by Deathlike, 06 June 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[Duncan Longwood]

I have to defend, at least, the Yen-lo-wang and the BJ1x as great support mechs. The ability to change the tide of battle in conquest with these mechs cannot be ignored. I feel like your analysis has ignored support mechs that can support both a team of lights AND a team of assaults in favor of assault-only support.

A fast medium can be your only cap runner in a PuG. It can support a pack of lights and then get right back in the fight supporting assaults. They can be used as skirmishers to break enemy lines and get the enemy to turn its back on the real threat; nobody likes 30-40 point alphas to the rear armor.

Criticism aside, thanks for taking the time to do the write-up, it should definitely help new players.

[Mahws]

I think you've been entirely too generous with the Commandos. You didn't mention their biggest failing, the engine cap.

Sure you can hit the speed cap with an XL210, but that requires either using SHS or a 50% increase in the size of the engine from the two required external DHS (12 slots to 18). Not to mention the 1.2 effective heatsinks worth of cooling lost from them being outside the engine.

All of that on top of the fact that they're the lightest armored mech, with no significant size difference between them and other lights.

CMD-3A:
Its one plus is that it's the single light mech that can take 2xSRM6. However with the required engine sinks it means sacrificing armor, ammo, energy weapons or speed, none of which is a good trade for a light. Especially when compared to a Jenner-D which can take 2xSRM4 with actual armor, ammo and energy weapons to boot. Also JJ.

CMD-2d:
The prince is dead. After the recent nerfs SSRM are no longer the be all and end all of light mechs and even if they were ECM is no longer the deciding factor in using them. 50% more streaks is no substitute for the lower armor rating, lack of jumpjets and only a single energy hardpoint.

The Commando may be fun, but it's in no way, shape or form a viable mech. Even if it wasn't for all of the disadvantages the sub-250 engine mechanics throw at it it'd still be one of the worst mechs in the game for new players.

Don't get me wrong, I love the commando. I take it out for a run every now and then and have a blast. But you shouldn't let your fondness for the 'mando get in the way of steering new and innocent players away from a mech that's a huge frustrating handicap for them.


On a side note your review of the Raven-3L is from the old meta. The recent ECM nerf dethroned it. Stick a BAP in a Jenner-D and you've got a 3L with more medium lasers and jump jets. All ECM really offers now is protection from LRM, which isn't hugely useful to a light mech. It's still a great mech, but it's no longer the undisputed king of the lights.

Edit:
Those beefs aside, you've done an excellent job and this a great reference for new players.

Edited by Mahws, 06 June 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[TB Azrael]

Missed probably the best build on the Ilya - dual guass, couple medium lasers and enough ammo to not worry about it.

Not a bad guide for new players, not bad at all.

Edited by TB Azrael, 06 June 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[dak irakoz]

yeah CN9-A!

[80Bit]

Lindonius, on 06 June 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

On the whole a nice review. I was preparing to beat you down if you suggested that the TDK was a bad mech but you summed it up quite well.

I would put the Jenner F above the Jenner D. Certainly at higher skill levels.

So would I. At higher skill levels. But unless you are pretty high up there, 2 Streaks is a hell of a lot more effective than 2 more lasers that you have to manage heat for.

[Nexus Omega]

Well Done, on the Long well written post,
I (like others) don't agree on everything, (the 4P is the best HBK!, the CDA-2A is an inferior JR7-F, which is better than the D, where did all the Closed Beta Jenner Pilots go?)
But kudos! a good guide for unfamiliar players, if they read this they will have a good idea what to avoid. (he says as he drives away in his Awesome to pickup his Dragon from the repair bay...)

Edit: Typo

Edited by Nexus Omega, 06 June 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[80Bit]

Mahws, on 06 June 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

I think you've been entirely too generous with the Commandos...

Thank you for the feedback. I didn't think 2 one stars 2 two stars an a 3 star for an ECM light was all that generous really. And I was trying to make it clear in both Commando description and the light mech description that it's not exactly a good starter mech. Perhaps I can clarify that further.

As far as viable, I'm not sure what you mean. Every single mech in the game is "viable" for doing well in standard play with. There are countless examples of that. If you mean in high end or competitive play, sure the Commando is a death trap, I have no problem admitting that.

I don't think that the Streak SRM game is quite dead yet, and neither is the Raven-3L. ECM is still useful, and perhaps a little more useful now that LRMs sting again. But things are definitely changing, which is why the Jenner-D is also Comstar rated.
.

Deathlike, on 06 June 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

The 3L specs are wrong.. it has 3E + 2M.

Anyways, I can kinda tell you haven't used some mechs, like the BJ. The BJ-1X is the most mobile of strikers.. faster than the HBK-4P... but probably won't compare the same in terms of torso twist or power. It can at least reasonably chase lights, but it's not great for fighting against them head o).

The STK-5M's greatest benefit is the CT energy hardpoint. If you wanted to ever go 5 LL, that hardpoint works out for the best (you can fit more DHS in that than the 3F/5S could even attempt), plus it can still be semi-effective when its torsos are gone (by then, it's close to death anyways). Same could be said for the Misery, but the 5M's benefit technically comes from the added "protection" because of the missile bay doors for the arms (like most Stalkers... 4N has only half the protection, Misery has none of it).

Thank you for catching that, I have corrected the 3L specs.

I do have a BJ3. It's a lot of fun. I can see the BJ-1X being fun to. I doubt it has much problem catching other mechs, but what does it do when it catches them?

[Mahws]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the Commando then. In my books it ranks alongside the Spider K and V as being the only mechs that aren't viable even in standard, non-competitive play.

I've had good rounds, I've solo'd Atlases in a Spider-V, I've brawled with Jenners in Commandos and come out on top, but those are by far and large exceptions to the rule. An experienced light mech user, running a build as min-maxed as it is possible to be can do well once every couple of rounds. If the matchmaker and lady luck smile.

An inexperienced player in a 'Mando is not going to do well. Their potential firepower is only marginally higher than a Spiders, they're the lightest armored mech in the game, with hitboxes that compound splash damage worse than any other mech and to top it all off their engine rating means they have less slots to work with than any other mech in the game, making what few builds they can manage even more restricted.

I can't honestly say any of the Commandos fit under the category of "2 Star (**): These mechs have no major flaws, but no stand out features either." Each and everyone of them is massively flawed out of the gate by both their low tonnage (and the tiny amount of armor that results in) and from the penalties to sub 250 engines. Anything they can do another light mech can do better. They don't even benefit from their one advantage (large missile slots) as they don't have the tonnage to effectively use them.

Edited by Mahws, 06 June 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[1453 R]

I find your remarks on the comparative viability of the TBT-3C and TBT-5N quite interesting. I'd previously considered the 5N a largely superfluous variant, with the only realistic advantage of better convergence for its beams over the 3C and its monstrous engine cap. Thinking on the matter, however...I can see your point. The 3C has the definite advantage in speed, and I heartily dispute your assertion that Trebuchets can't make good strike 'Mechs (3C + 350XL + 2xASRM-6 + 4x MLas = )...but I'm thinking I can see where you're coming from on the extra torso twist for the 5N giving it a definite edge in the quick LRM support department The 3C can't really go higher than the 300XL it comes with and still mount both reasonable LRM offense and enough armor to matter...but the 5N, with the 250XL out of the 7M and Speed Tweak, could be interesting.

Good work, sir. This is the sort of post we need more of in the Guides section. Even if I'm gonna have to give you a talkin' to where it comes to things like the 5J and strike loadouts

Edited by 1453 R, 06 June 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[Delas Ting Usee]

The Effort put in is appreciated by many!
Thanks 80Bit!

[Lindonius]

Mahws, on 06 June 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

The Commando may be fun, but it's in no way, shape or form a viable mech.

Absolute nonsense. I regularly get 4-5 kills in my Death's Knell and check out the screenie on this thread of the guy who got SEVEN kills running his.

http://mwomercs.com/...an-8-kill-game/

It is an extremely "viable" mech.

[Lindonius]

Mahws, on 06 June 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the Commando then. In my books it ranks alongside the Spider K and V as being the only mechs that aren't viable even in standard, non-competitive play.

I've had good rounds, I've solo'd Atlases in a Spider-V, I've brawled with Jenners in Commandos and come out on top, but those are by far and large exceptions to the rule. An experienced light mech user, running a build as min-maxed as it is possible to be can do well once every couple of rounds. If the matchmaker and lady luck smile.

An inexperienced player in a 'Mando is not going to do well. Their potential firepower is only marginally higher than a Spiders, they're the lightest armored mech in the game, with hitboxes that compound splash damage worse than any other mech and to top it all off their engine rating means they have less slots to work with than any other mech in the game, making what few builds they can manage even more restricted.

I can't honestly say any of the Commandos fit under the category of "2 Star (**): These mechs have no major flaws, but no stand out features either." Each and everyone of them is massively flawed out of the gate by both their low tonnage (and the tiny amount of armor that results in) and from the penalties to sub 250 engines. Anything they can do another light mech can do better. They don't even benefit from their one advantage (large missile slots) as they don't have the tonnage to effectively use them.

[Deathlike]

80Bit, on 06 June 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

I do have a BJ3. It's a lot of fun. I can see the BJ-1X being fun to. I doubt it has much problem catching other mechs, but what does it do when it catches them?

Finish them off (assuming they are crit) or leg them. Think of it in terms of being a Cicada, except more powerful, not as fast, and not having a great torso twist. Since XL is a viable option on BJs, the extra tonnage gained from that can be put into good use.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

This Guide B80-76
Rating: *
Role: Misinformation, bad opinions

This is a legit terrible guide and nobody should take the majority of the advice given here ever. Your "best" mechs are out of date, you undersell mechs you've clearly never played in your life, and you don't understand the difference between a terrible mech and a mech which is merely overshadowed by its other variants.

Edited by Zharot, 06 June 2013 - 11:34 PM.