597 replies to this topic

[Odins Fist]

PEEFsmash, on 06 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

"Making Our Elo Ratings Public Would Help This Community"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...!!!! Hey man, go right ahead, but if you think for one minute that it would actually help MWO, then you are clearly out of your COTTON PICKING MIND..

It doesn't bother me, one way or the other if they make it public or not, but to say it's a good idea is a friggin joke.

Thanks I haven't laughed that hard in a while...

[Zordicron]

TheAtomiser, on 06 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Agreed with op. ELO in the form of leagues a la starcraft 2 would provide better frames of referenxe and would make people strive to become better players by improving their individual skill and team playing ability.

LOL, do you really think that? Players will strive to be better....? Wouldnt they do that anyway? Do you think everyone actually cares if they are better then the other guy?
PGI can look up anyone's stats they want for reference. Why would you need to?

[Budor]

I have a brilliant idea that should make you all very happy mechwarriors indeed: Lets just make up our ELO ratings!

Since its MY idea ill take the opportunity to start, my elo rating is 45,789.044.

[Fate 6]

Budor, on 06 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I have a brilliant idea that should make you all very happy mechwarriors indeed: Lets just make up our ELO ratings!

Since its MY idea ill take the opportunity to start, my elo rating is 45,789.044.

Is that the Elo for all your mechs or just your YLW? Cuz my YLW rating is 45,789.043, so I must bow down to you

[Budor]

Fate 6, on 06 June 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Is that the Elo for all your mechs or just your YLW? Cuz my YLW rating is 45,789.043, so I must bow down to you

That hasnt been made up yet.

[soarra]

Budor, on 06 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I have a brilliant idea that should make you all very happy mechwarriors indeed: Lets just make up our ELO ratings!

Since its MY idea ill take the opportunity to start, my elo rating is 45,789.044.

ok mine is OVER 9000

[Lindonius]

I wouldn't mind if we kept it simple and canon.

Have 4 pilot ranks, as per table top, of Green, Regular, Veteran and Elite.

[PEEFsmash]

Again, it's not that people with high Elo should be given precedence in anything with any posts. Rather, opinions should be judged based on the quality of the argument that is made, as always. HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is that the opinions of top level players and low level players are more or less opinions about DIFFERENT GAMES ENTIRELY. Opponents and teammates are not equal, and that makes an incredible difference. As pointed out a thousand times in this thread, it is not about being right or wrong, but it is about finding where opinions are coming from.
When a low-level player plays a game and has trouble with something, or says he has a solution for something, his troubles and his solutions are entirely different and probably not at all relevant to top-level player balance. I've heard things like, "you can counter assaults by just getting behind them with mediums." This might genuinely be a solution in low-Elo brackets, but it is not a solution in the slightest when it comes to balancing mediums at a competitive 8 man level.

So, different people have different solutions for different problems, but right now, when everyone thinks they are special because they have their win-rate propped to about 1.0 via Elo, we cannot tell what world the player its coming from, and neither can the player herself. She might have found out that LBX autocannons are a great solution to snipers at low-Elo, but when it comes to balancing the game at the highest level, these findings at low-Elo are irrelevant, or at best something worth testing. Her findings at a low-Elo level should not be considered EVIDENCE against those saying that LBX acs are underpowered at the competitive level. I don't see why this is a controversial topic. It's not about right or wrong, but about relevance.

Here is an analogy. At low levels of basketball play, pump fakes and pass fakes are genuinely overpowered. If you can do a nice-looking pump fake, you can get tons of fouls and juke everyone. However, at the highest level, pump fakes are a situational tool that should be used on occasion to keep people honest, but if you pump fake consistently, the defender will use that extra time to set up on you and block your actual shot. Now, if the neighborhood champ who abused pump-fakes came to the NBA rules committee and proposed that we ban the pump fake maneuver because it is too strong among poor basketball players, what should be said? That may well be true for low level players, but if we want a balanced ruleset at the NBA level, evidence from my neighborhood pickup games is not relevant.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 06 June 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Haradim]

Hellcat420, on 06 June 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

elo has nothing to do with how good you actually are. all it shows is how good(or bad) the teams you got put on by matchmaker were.

And it might well get even more vague as a measure of individual player quality once Community Warfare is factored in, depending on what "victory" and "loss" actually entails for that game mode and whether or not it contributes to any of our various Elo ratings the same way instant action PUG matches do.

[Skadi]

I was ******* promised this crap would NEVER be made public, and by god I will make sure they keep that promise.

The LAST thing we need is a horde of elitest scumbags who are actualy **** at this game going around talking down everysingle player who is 1 elo raing below them. im fine and dandy with you being able to request to know your own elo rating, but being made public? No.

Edited by Skadi, 06 June 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 06 June 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Again, it's not that people with high Elo should be given precedence in anything with any posts. Rather, opinions should be judged based on the quality of the argument that is made, as always. HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is that the opinions of top level players and low level players are more or less opinions about DIFFERENT GAMES ENTIRELY. Opponents and teammates are not equal, and that makes an incredible difference. As pointed out a thousand times in this thread, it is not about being right or wrong, but it is about finding where opinions are coming from.
When a low-level player plays a game and has trouble with something, or says he has a solution for something, his troubles and his solutions are entirely different and probably not at all relevant to top-level player balance. I've heard things like, "you can counter assaults by just getting behind them with mediums." This might genuinely be a solution in low-Elo brackets, but it is not a solution in the slightest when it comes to balancing mediums at a competitive 8 man level.

So, different people have different solutions for different problems, but right now, when everyone thinks they are special because they have their win-rate propped to about 1.0 via Elo, we cannot tell what world the player its coming from, and neither can the player herself. She might have found out that LBX autocannons are a great solution to snipers at low-Elo, but when it comes to balancing the game at the highest level, these findings at low-Elo are irrelevant, or at best something worth testing. Her findings at a low-Elo level should not be considered EVIDENCE against those saying that LBX acs are underpowered at the competitive level. I don't see why this is a controversial topic. It's not about right or wrong, but about relevance.

Here is an analogy. At low levels of basketball play, pump fakes and pass fakes are genuinely overpowered. If you can do a nice-looking pump fake, you can get tons of fouls and juke everyone. However, at the highest level, pump fakes are a situational tool that should be used on occasion to keep people honest, but if you pump fake consistently, the defender will use that extra time to set up on you and block your actual shot. Now, if the neighborhood champ who abused pump-fakes came to the NBA rules committee and proposed that we ban the pump fake maneuver because it is too strong among poor basketball players, what should be said? That may well be true for low level players, but if we want a balanced ruleset at the NBA level, evidence from my neighborhood pickup games is not relevant.

This I agree with, but I'm not sure the positives of public Elo outweigh the negatives.
A semi-transparent system of Elo "brackets" might be a decent middle ground for trying to understand what part of the meta different people are describing.

[Ralgas]

PEEFsmash, on 06 June 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Again, it's not that people with high Elo should be given precedence in anything with any posts. Rather, opinions should be judged based on the quality of the argument that is made, as always. HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is that the opinions of top level players and low level players are more or less opinions about DIFFERENT GAMES ENTIRELY. Opponents and teammates are not equal, and that makes an incredible difference. As pointed out a thousand times in this thread, it is not about being right or wrong, but it is about finding where opinions are coming from.
When a low-level player plays a game and has trouble with something, or says he has a solution for something, his troubles and his solutions are entirely different and probably not at all relevant to top-level player balance. I've heard things like, "you can counter assaults by just getting behind them with mediums." This might genuinely be a solution in low-Elo brackets, but it is not a solution in the slightest when it comes to balancing mediums at a competitive 8 man level.

So, different people have different solutions for different problems, but right now, when everyone thinks they are special because they have their win-rate propped to about 1.0 via Elo, we cannot tell what world the player its coming from, and neither can the player herself. She might have found out that LBX autocannons are a great solution to snipers at low-Elo, but when it comes to balancing the game at the highest level, these findings at low-Elo are irrelevant, or at best something worth testing. Her findings at a low-Elo level should not be considered EVIDENCE against those saying that LBX acs are underpowered at the competitive level. I don't see why this is a controversial topic. It's not about right or wrong, but about relevance.

Here is an analogy. At low levels of basketball play, pump fakes and pass fakes are genuinely overpowered. If you can do a nice-looking pump fake, you can get tons of fouls and juke everyone. However, at the highest level, pump fakes are a situational tool that should be used on occasion to keep people honest, but if you pump fake consistently, the defender will use that extra time to set up on you and block your actual shot. Now, if the neighborhood champ who abused pump-fakes came to the NBA rules committee and proposed that we ban the pump fake maneuver because it is too strong among poor basketball players, what should be said? That may well be true for low level players, but if we want a balanced ruleset at the NBA level, evidence from my neighborhood pickup games is not relevant.

As stated, the ones making the changes have access to it to make those calls. Why do you need it other than to discriminate against them.

Edited by Ralgas, 06 June 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Ralgas, on 06 June 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

As stated, the ones making the changes have access to it to make those calls. Why do you need it other than to dicriminate against them.

They do not go through each and every poster among the mess that is these forums to judge the relevance of the player input. Not to mention, they are not reaching out whatsoever to the competitive community to get feedback, and the game is suffering. It is unfortunate that I am very uncharismatic and tend to tick everyone off. I wish someone else in the competitive community had the patience to put up with having these kinds of debates and discussions with the trolls and grognards in these forums.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 06 June 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Mycrus]

Terribad idea - you will have tryhards behaving crazy just because of Elo rating.

You also will have trolls like me having a field day about this.

[Livewyr]

You can put whatever kind of pleasant label on your promotion, but we all know it boils down to epeen.


you want to cite someone's Elo as proof that they don't know what they're talking about, in the event that they disagree with you. I've nothing to hide, I have decent stats and a decent Elo, especially considering I pug 90% of the time.


but I can't think of any positive outcome in the community for making player ratings public.

if they want to share their ratings, great..don't air their laundry.

[HiplyRustic]

So the brilliant and insightful strategist who has shockingly bad hand-eye coordination and/or reactions times...who as a result has a crappy ELO...has his/her judgement and commentary dismissed because of said ELO score? Thanks, but no thanks. ELO score is as much twitch and hand/eye as it is planning and knowledge...if not more so.

Having faster reaction times or better twitch FPS skills does not a subject matter expert make.

[Spades Kincaid]

Neverfar, on 06 June 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

1. This isn't basketball. It isn't even a sport. Contrary to your "competitive community" dogmas, it is not a sport, and it's an insult to athletes everywhere to compare a clicks-per-minute South Korean starcraft player with a person who hones an entire body into performing an athletic activity.

2. Again, you're calling for "seperate but equal" segregation, and using all the same old arguments for the same. It was argued almost exactly as you put it a few generations ago: "Colored peoples have different needs than white people. Colored people don't understand white people issues and vice-versa." Yes, this is not racism we're talking about here, but the segregation fallacy is equally wrong here, if in a much smaller gaming venue.

3. Your argument approach is so abrasive that you're quite likely damaging your argument the more you post about it. You're sounding stuffier and more and more full of yourself than even at the start of the thread. Forget about what mean things I said to you for a moment: this pertains to you. Your repeat posts are along the line of "you dont understand what the illuminated ones like myself do. You are ignorant". It's only making things worse for you.

The fact that you followed #1, with #2, is laughably hypocritical. If comparing a game, to a game is insulting, then comparing this whole debate to race segregation isn't? The last sentence in no way saves it from that, anymore than him prefacing his post with 'This isn't basketball but...' would.

You're far more abrasive than he is. And he posts more rationally and maturely than you do.



That said? I completely disagree with the idea of public ELO for many of the same reasons others have pointed out. It serves no redeeming value above the negatives it would bring along with it. While I understand the point Peef is trying to make, it simply doesn't actually help anyone or anything. The people who might -need- to have that perspective to a player's input, have it, the Devs. Whether they choose to use that information or not will not change by it's being made public.

And since they are the only ones making any changes to the game. They are the only ones who matter in that regard. I don't need to know if playerX has a low ELO or high ELO viewpoint, and neither does anyone else. Because we aren't making the decisions on what to take (if anything) from his/her input toward balancing the game.

To use your Basketball analogy Peef; the NBA rules Committee would be the Devs. They know he's a neighborhood champ and not an NBA player. That's all that matters.

What you are proposing is as if the decision was being left in the hands of the fans(we players), some of whom may have great basketball knowledge and some may not. And that they need to be informed that this guy is -not- an NBA player.

We don't. Just the rules committee does.

[Wispsy]

Neverfar you may wish to reread your last 20 posts or 4 pages just to make sure you remember everything totally correctly. Just saying.

It is correct that low Elo and high Elo are almost separate games. Also I know quite the number of incredibly good players who no longer visit the forums as every time they have given very insightful posts with valid points they get flamed with "L2P NOOB" and they definitely know the game mechanics very well.

Anyways I for one would very much like to know my own Elo and do not really care if others can see mine.

[PEEFsmash]

What is this whole saperate forum thing you keep referencing? I never said anything about a separate forum but you keep attributing that to me. What are you talking about?

[StalaggtIKE]

PEEFsmash, on 06 June 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is that the opinions of top level players and low level players are more or less opinions about DIFFERENT GAMES ENTIRELY. Opponents and teammates are not equal, and that makes an incredible difference. As pointed out a thousand times in this thread, it is not about being right or wrong, but it is about finding where opinions are coming from.

You are correct. However your suggestion is unnecessary. PGI has access to our ELO scores, as well as our input. In which, if they want, they can act upon those requests based on the different skill sets.