64 replies to this topic

[Ralgas]

It should be noted that the engine weights were dropped by the extra heatsinks necessary, compared to TT. The game rules only penalize small engines with the crit space when less that 10 sinks fit in the engine, but pgi used the method to save extra mechlab coding and rules to prevent needing "weightless" sinks.

TL:DR if engines didn't need the extra HS they would take up the extra weight anyhow

[Sephlock]

WolvesX, on 07 June 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Come on, would it break to world in three if the flea or the KOMMADO could fit LESS than 10 hs?

It would break the whiners' worlds, so yeah.

[Stoicblitzer]

the engine needs them.

[Zyllos]

This always comes up every few months.

Engine weights under 250 have been reduced in weight to match the correct weight in the TT dependent how the number of heatsinks outside the engine to need the minimum 10 heatsinks.

That means if you equip a 170 engine, it needs 4 heatsinks outside the engine, meaning an extra 4 tons. So the 170 is 4 tons less than the TT version of the engine.

Now, if you went and calculated this yourself, MWO and TT has done their engine weights differently, which is going to lead to issues in the future if they implement the special gyros and cockpits that have different weights and critical slots. But, MWO includes the weight of the gyro and cockpit to the engine tonnage before determining the calculation.

So, for a 170 engine, they include the gyro weight, which is 2.0t, then the cockpit, which is always 3.0t, I believe. But since the 170 has 4 heatsinks outside the engine, so the total tonnage of the 170 engine is TT engine weight + 5.0t - 4.0t, or TT engine + 1.0t. So if you looked at the MWO 170, it would weigh 1.0t over the TT weight but you have to remember the gyro and cockpit has no weight in MWO.

I have done these calculations on every engine weight in the game. There is only a few engines that had issues with weight and most of them are 125 XL or less. All but one STD engine is correct.

[armyof1]

The 10HS rule isn't so bad if the weight has actually been deducted from the engines to compensate for that. But any mech that isn't allowed to carry at least a 250 engine do get shortchanged with the external HS because of the 1.4 instead of 2.0 dissipation you get from DHS. And it's not by choice either, since you can't use an engine that heavy you're forced to have a couple weaker DHS. That part does not seem fair.

Edited by armyof1, 07 June 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[Egomane]

Looks like I need to dig for some old post of mine and quote it here (again)!

Egomane, on 08 November 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

Engine weight now includes:
- Cockpit
- Gyro
- Engine

It does currently not include:
- Weight for heatsinks below 10 if they don't fit into the engine

So, yes, it could get confusing with the engine weight, but I haven't noticed any errors, so far.

Example:
Per Tabletop rules, a standard 100 engine would weigh 3 tons. A cockpit always weighs 3 tons. A gyro for a 100 rated engine costs 1 ton (engine rating/100, always round up to the next full ton). For a total of 7 tons.
In MWO, a standard 100 engine weighs 1 ton. That is the above 7 tons minus the 6 tons for heatsinks that don't fit into the engine.

Example 2:
Per Tabletop rules, a XL 200 engine would weigh 4.5 tons. A cockpit always weighs 3 tons. A gyro for a 200 rated engine costs 2 ton (engine rating/100, always round up to the next full ton). For a total of 9.5 tons.
In MWO, a XL 200 engine weighs 7.5 ton. That is the above 9.5 tons minus the 2 tons for heatsinks that don't fit into the engine.

Everything is fine here, please move along.

Have a nice day!

[Tickdoff Tank]

mindwarp, on 06 June 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

I don't run light mechs much in MWO, but in battletech the 10 base heatsinks do not take up tonnage. They may take crits if they don't fit in the engine, but they don't weigh anything. Is that not the case here? Definitely a bug if the base heatsinks do take up tonnage.

Base heatsinks in MWO DO NOT TAKE UP TONNAGE.

For any engine that is "required" to mount heatsinks outside of the engine to reach the minimum of 10 the devs reduced the weight of the engine by 1 ton for each heatsink that you must mount. Net effect: Mech+Engine weighs the same in MWO as in TT.

There are 1 or 2 instances where the engine+gyro+heatsinks weigh a little different in MWO than in TT, I am pretty sure the STD 100 engine is one of them and I do not remember the other, but I distinctly remember that it was a marginal difference that makes no real impact on the game.

If you care, it was done this way do to the way that DHS were rolled out along with the necessity of allowing large engines to mount additional "space free" heatsinks inside the engine. In TT You would have your engine, a gyro, a cockpit and external heatsinks (meaning external to the engine, not external on the mech). In MWO the weight of your cockpit and gyro are added into the engine and the weight of heatsinks that do not fit in the engine was removed. (I will happily explain further if someone wants to hear it. I would also find the links to where we all hashed out the match but I am afraid it was a victim of the forum purge)

[Zyllos]

armyof1, on 07 June 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

The 10HS rule isn't so bad if the weight has actually been deducted from the engines to compensate for that. But any mech that isn't allowed to carry at least a 250 engine do get shortchanged with the external HS because of the 1.4 instead of 2.0 dissipation you get from DHS. And it's not by choice either, since you can't use an engine that heavy you're forced to have a couple weaker DHS. That part does not seem fair.

This is true. I have been trying to get PGI to modify DHS to be 1.7 per heatsinks, giving no bias to any engine sizes.

[Steel Will]

If every engine needs 10 heatsinks every engine should come with 10 heatsinks internal. Having to add externals to meet the requirement is just sloppy. The total weight may be a wash but you lose the added cooling and 3-9 crit spaces.

And maybe there's some reason if 10 SHS can do the job why 5+ DHS can't ?

[WolvesX]

Don't care for TT, care for game balance.

[Yanlowen Cage]

shabowie, on 06 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

All doubles should be 2.0 actually. I feel compelled to occasionally remind everyone that we were told we couldn't have them for a fake reason.

Unless they changed only engine dhs are 2.0 those external ones are 1.4.

[Mycrus]

[Trauglodyte]

I understand the design concept. On the other hand, it does sort of screw the lighter mechs that have to put in less then 250 engine because criticals are always at a premium. It was always my understanding that, in TT, every engine came with 10 HSs regardless of size. But you also had to pay for the weight on the cockpit and gyro. On the other hand, there is a reason why there are only a very very select few mechs in the game that had more two of the combination of Ferro Fibrous, Endo Steel, and an Extra Light Engine. Again, criticals are at a premium.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 07 June 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[WolvesX]

Also Gauss Jager doesn't need them.

[RG Notch]

WolvesX, on 07 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Also Gauss Jager doesn't need them.

Nope, every mech needs 10. If you mean can function without them that's different.

[Gaan Cathal]

Dirk Le Daring, on 06 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

10 is the minimum number of heatsinks required for ALL mechs, regardless of weight. It is from the Battletech ruleset, and is a core principle of mech functionality.

It's one of those Battletech rules that harms the game, as far as Mechwarrior goes. Like the tonnages for Pulse weapons. Some things can't be circularly balanced around. Certain pulse lasers need to be lighter (not harder hitting, lower heat e.t.c enough to justify their weight, just lighter) and certain perfectly acceptable mechs and builds for them are jacked by the virtue of being forced to take an excessive amount of cooling.

[Corvus Antaka]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 June 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

[/size]

It's one of those Battletech rules that harms the game, as far as Mechwarrior goes. Like the tonnages for Pulse weapons. Some things can't be circularly balanced around. Certain pulse lasers need to be lighter (not harder hitting, lower heat e.t.c enough to justify their weight, just lighter) and certain perfectly acceptable mechs and builds for them are jacked by the virtue of being forced to take an excessive amount of cooling.

+1

stop quoting TT people. go into the MWO mechlab and try and build a viable mech that in any way compares to one with a 255 or bigger - it's a complete waste of time. 90% of the time the loss of speed & the tons you give up for heatsinks cripple the light mech - why would it be so terrible to see commandos with only 4 DHS and only 4 DHS worth of dissapation?

times like this I wish Tabletop would burn in hell, seriously. it just doesn't work well in the game, it forces lights to be fast - tons of tabletop lights are slower mechs, here in MWO there's just 0 justifiable reason to build a light that way since the heatsinks eat your mechs tonnage right up - as 1 guy said the Flea will be a gimp.

[One Medic Army]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 09 June 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

+1

stop quoting TT people. go into the MWO mechlab and try and build a viable mech that in any way compares to one with a 255 or bigger - it's a complete waste of time. 90% of the time the loss of speed & the tons you give up for heatsinks cripple the light mech - why would it be so terrible to see commandos with only 4 DHS and only 4 DHS worth of dissapation?

times like this I wish Tabletop would burn in hell, seriously. it just doesn't work well in the game, it forces lights to be fast - tons of tabletop lights are slower mechs, here in MWO there's just 0 justifiable reason to build a light that way since the heatsinks eat your mechs tonnage right up - as 1 guy said the Flea will be a gimp.

Um, the reason slow lights suck in MWO is pretty much the same reason they suck in TT if you'd get the choice between a 4/6 35 tonner, or a 4/6 65tonner with more armor and weaponry.
Slow lights suck because if you're going to go that slow a heavier chassis lets you do it while giving you more weapons, more armor, more internal structure.
In TT and BT lore these crap lights were balanced by having low CBill and BV costs. In MWO they cost 1 player slot of 8 (soon to be 12).

Heck, MWO they're already better since at least here they're harder to hit than assaults (having smaller hitboxes); in TT the target numbers didn't care about tonnage, only speed.

Edited by One Medic Army, 09 June 2013 - 01:33 AM.

[Sporklift]

I remember in CB before the 10HS rule was implemented. People would walk into the caldera in Caustic, overheat and shutdown without even firing weapons. Then they melted while in shutdown.

[One Medic Army]

Sporklift, on 09 June 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

I remember in CB before the 10HS rule was implemented. People would walk into the caldera in Caustic, overheat and shutdown without even firing weapons. Then they melted while in shutdown.

It wasn't even just them.
One of the trial commandos would just remain shut down until it exploded if it overheated in the caldera.

Edited by One Medic Army, 09 June 2013 - 02:04 AM.