94 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

Andrew Cranston, on 27 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

**Edit** No clue why it screwed up the quote but I was replying to Weaselballs comment:

"PGI needs to give SRM's the MG treatment, and start buffing them by 0.1 or 0.2 damage a patch until they're at a sweet spot. I have no idea why they haven't already been doing this."

Because they already have new balance changes coming down the pipe and if there is one thing they've proven, it's that if they change multiple things at once they drastically screw up balance almost every time. Lets fix the PPC meta before we change other weapons systems shall we? I typically play a sniper, I hate PPC's in their current form (mostly I hate BOATING in its current form but PPCs are too strong singularly as well). Buffing weapons to counter something else is a bad idea though. It's partially how we got into this PPC mess in the first place. ECM anyone?

Chicken-Egg.

When they broke SRM's, that is when PPC's became dominant. "Fixing" SRMs, is not "buffing" them.

[MustrumRidcully]

The fundamental thing is with the SRM vs PPC beta that a lot of things happened in short succession in the game, and you cannot nail it on a single factor.

• PPC (and other weapons) Projectile Speed Increased
  
• PPC Heat Reduced
  
• Host State Rewind (this is by the way also hurting all lights and mediums that relied on speed, independent of their weapon choice. It was necessary, but it had balance implications)
  
• Missile Damage Nerfed

All of these factors have affected the game balance, and the combination of them, and not just a single factor, lead to the current metagame.

And if we go even further back.. some aspects of the problem are even older.

• Decision to implement weapon convergence and group fire (fundamental gives boating a statistically relevant precision advantage over mixed weapon loadouts that cannot fire all weapons in a single alpha strike)
  
• A heat system with a high heat threshold but a dissipation that is comparatively low to the heat production rate of mechs, which enables repeated alpha strikes but makes sustained damage difficult.
  
• Introducing Double Heat Sinks and allowing them to raise the heat threshold even further.

[Jonathan Paine]

I'd like to see SSRM stay where they are, and have SRMs buffed by 0.2 damage per missile, adding 13% damage. If that doesn't quite get it, try another 0.1. The damage discrepancy between SSRM and SRM might come in handy later...

Going from 1.5 to 2.5 is completely and utterly insane - it is adding 67% damage to a weapon. Worthy of PGI though, that is how they roll.

[blinkin]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 June 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

The fundamental thing is with the SRM vs PPC beta that a lot of things happened in short succession in the game, and you cannot nail it on a single factor.

• PPC (and other weapons) Projectile Speed Increased
  
• PPC Heat Reduced
  
• Host State Rewind (this is by the way also hurting all lights and mediums that relied on speed, independent of their weapon choice. It was necessary, but it had balance implications)
  
• Missile Damage Nerfed

All of these factors have affected the game balance, and the combination of them, and not just a single factor, lead to the current metagame.

And if we go even further back.. some aspects of the problem are even older.

• Decision to implement weapon convergence and group fire (fundamental gives boating a statistically relevant precision advantage over mixed weapon loadouts that cannot fire all weapons in a single alpha strike)
  
• A heat system with a high heat threshold but a dissipation that is comparatively low to the heat production rate of mechs, which enables repeated alpha strikes but makes sustained damage difficult.
  
• Introducing Double Heat Sinks and allowing them to raise the heat threshold even further.

seems like a pretty sober assessment of the situation. now if we could just get a few more people to actually think about their reasons and conclusions. then maybe i wouldn't be the bad guy for still liking SRM and thinking they are effective.

the only issue i take with your statement is the unqualified "missile damage nerfed". the missile damage itself was nerfed but the spread was also tightened and blast radius added. as far as i can tell SRM are just as deadly as they were in the 2.5 days and my SRM catapults still murder mechs. the only issue i see is the lag shield on fast mechs that allows them to take more direct hits than any assault mech ever could.

[Zyllos]

SRMs need to be at 2.0 damage for those mechs that don't boat them.

Sure, it buffs those mechs that do boat them, but not by much.

I 100% agree that 2.5 would be a grave error. 2.0, I think, is that perfect sweet spot for SRMs. I would also suggest leaving SSRMs at 1.5 for the future SSRM/4 and SSRM/6 launchers. That is the price you pay for having homing weapons, less DPS.

[DamnCatte]

Personally, I find splatcats waaaay easier to deal with than PPC-snipers. Even running my Jagermech, which has always been dual gauss, I can out duel a splatcat on my better days, and still provide assistance to my team. The 90 point splatcat isn't 90 on pinpoint, and in many cases with the PPC boaters, it's all to one spot. In anything short of an assault, that's pretty much going to ruin your mech.

I'm starting to wonder if going oldschool and limiting distance rendering might be, ironically, the best balance option.

[Solis Obscuri]

Nah.

But we'd complain less.

[blinkin]

Gharland The Red, on 27 June 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Personally, I find splatcats waaaay easier to deal with than PPC-snipers. Even running my Jagermech, which has always been dual gauss, I can out duel a splatcat on my better days, and still provide assistance to my team. The 90 point splatcat isn't 90 on pinpoint, and in many cases with the PPC boaters, it's all to one spot. In anything short of an assault, that's pretty much going to ruin your mech.

I'm starting to wonder if going oldschool and limiting distance rendering might be, ironically, the best balance option.

depends on the range. if i can get within 50m it is tight enough. at 30m i can reliably gut any mech within 2 shots from the rear. stalkers may take a little more because of their smallish hit boxes and high armor.

[Purlana]

blinkin, on 27 June 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

depends on the range. if i can get within 50m it is tight enough. at 30m i can reliably gut any mech within 2 shots from the rear. stalkers may take a little more because of their smallish hit boxes and high armor.

At 30m from the back almost any brawling weapon can gut you in two rounds.

[Peter2000]

blinkin, on 27 June 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

depends on the range. if i can get within 50m it is tight enough. at 30m i can reliably gut any mech within 2 shots from the rear. stalkers may take a little more because of their smallish hit boxes and high armor.

Try them out with the new trajectory (by which I mean month-old). They spread almost instantly. You absolutely cannot hit all (or even most) on a single panel.

[blinkin]

Purlana, on 27 June 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

At 30m from the back almost any brawling weapon can gut you in two rounds.

how many of those can do it for 19 tons including ammo? because that is what makes SRM different. i get to dish out massive damage AND completely max out my engine.

Peter2000, on 27 June 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Try them out with the new trajectory (by which I mean month-old). They spread almost instantly. You absolutely cannot hit all (or even most) on a single panel.

the entire time i have been referencing events that have happened within the past couple weeks. every experience i have listed has been since the last major patch on the 18th and most have even been since the mini patch that happened after.

some of these events even happened after i stripped my artemis (on the catapult A1 artemis does not seem to make a major difference for close range ambush shots at least.)

Edited by blinkin, 27 June 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[Jabilo]

Jonathan Paine, on 27 June 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I'd like to see SSRM stay where they are, and have SRMs buffed by 0.2 damage per missile, adding 13% damage. If that doesn't quite get it, try another 0.1. The damage discrepancy between SSRM and SRM might come in handy later...

Going from 1.5 to 2.5 is completely and utterly insane - it is adding 67% damage to a weapon. Worthy of PGI though, that is how they roll.

And we have a winner.

[Peter2000]

blinkin, on 27 June 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

how many of those can do it for 19 tons including ammo? because that is what makes SRM different. i get to dish out massive damage AND completely max out my engine.


the entire time i have been referencing events that have happened within the past couple weeks. every experience i have listed has been since the last major patch on the 18th and most have even been since the mini patch that happened after.

some of these events even happened after i stripped my artemis (on the catapult A1 artemis does not seem to make a major difference for close range ambush shots at least.)

Again, I'm calling B.S. The spread pattern is much wider than you are implying. Exaggeration doesn't help.

[PanzerMagier]

NRP, on 07 June 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

People will always complain.

Hypocritical statement, I suspect. Complaining that people complain, yes?

[blinkin]

Peter2000, on 27 June 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Again, I'm calling B.S. The spread pattern is much wider than you are implying. Exaggeration doesn't help.

2 shots from the rear on a healthy atlas. call whatever you want but i have done it.