97 replies to this topic

[Ol Dirty Bastard]

Strum you are quoting TT rules. I am quoting Lore, there is a difference.

You are correct according to TT rules, TT rules do not reflect any differences in Clan or IS LRM flight paths, and they act identically. All rules you quoted are 100% correct, and I can not disagree with you at all there.

However where you are "simply" wrong, is that the underlined sentence starts with "Though if they stick to lore" and NOT "Though if they stick to TT rules." What is written in lore does not always reflect table top rules, and your entire refresher course on table top rules no longer applies to my statement that you underlined.

According to Clan Lore, the Clans program the LRMs to fly a shallow flight path, only barely gaining any altitude at all. This is obviously due to zellbrigen, and the fact that taking cover is viewed as dishonorable. Thus a faster more direct flight path was utilized for Clan LRMs, to give less of an opportunity for enemies to avoid the LRMs.

The fact that you mention zellbrigen just annoys me. Zell is not used 24/7, and if any rule of zellbrigen is broken, all sides immediately abandon using zellbrigen. In the lore, it honestly SEEMs like zellbrigen is hardly used at all, as it is an honor thing, and depends on the respect one faction has for the other. Its not always used, and if it is used, most times it gets dropped because somebody broke a rule here or there. Additionally, most clan units never practice zellbrigen with priates, or later in lore mercenaries. in short, those weapons, and the equipment to use them outside of the rules of zellbrigen are there, because the clans are not restricted to zellbrigen, and only use it a fraction of the time. Sheroids blow zell up to be this huge ball and chain holding the clans back, but it is not that way. Yes they often try to use it against the IS, against enemies they attempt to show respect and honor to, and it backfires in their face, yes, true... but its not all the time.

[Prisma]

Khanahar, on 11 June 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

...ensuring not everyone switches to Clan machines instantly. I would be sad if they "balanced" Clantech and handed it to everybody, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

A much better solution would be to restrict access in a meaningful way, by having players only be able to drop as Clanners every so often, ideally based on match victories.

I'm not all that thrilled with this. None of my friends are interested in Battletech, so should I be punished for that and denied new things in game? *I* like the game a lot, but I can't force others to play if they don't want to. Just because I don't have a big voice-chatting team steamrolling matches, I don't want to be punished for that either. Clan stuff will be new, and people want to try new things. Match victories be damned...something along the lines of allowing everyone to play 10 matches a day as clanner would be easier to stomach.

[FERAL TIGER]

Eckman is right with not wantng to make IS mechs obsolete upon clan launch. My biggest concern is that clan tech becomes a new tier of playing. How could anything besides an omnimech, with all-around better techology be competetive? Also, eventually everyone would have clan gear, and we'd all be back to where we started, but on a multiple.

[Pugnax]

I think the addition of one new mech per month is pretty admirable. There is still a lot of basic stuff getting hammered out with gameplay/matchmaking, it seems like this should be as near to perfect as possible before opening up the whole new can of worms which is clan mechs.

[Strum Wealh]

Eric Pryde, on 11 June 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

Strum you are quoting TT rules. I am quoting Lore, there is a difference.

You are correct according to TT rules, TT rules do not reflect any differences in Clan or IS LRM flight paths, and they act identically. All rules you quoted are 100% correct, and I can not disagree with you at all there.

However where you are "simply" wrong, is that the underlined sentence starts with "Though if they stick to lore" and NOT "Though if they stick to TT rules." What is written in lore does not always reflect table top rules, and your entire refresher course on table top rules no longer applies to my statement that you underlined.

According to Clan Lore, the Clans program the LRMs to fly a shallow flight path, only barely gaining any altitude at all. This is obviously due to zellbrigen, and the fact that taking cover is viewed as dishonorable. Thus a faster more direct flight path was utilized for Clan LRMs, to give less of an opportunity for enemies to avoid the LRMs.

Then, what are your sources for the statement that "the Clans program the LRMs to fly a shallow flight path, only barely gaining any altitude at all"? Where are the citations that support your arguments? None of the sourcebooks or rulebooks (including Total Warfare, TechManual, CBT Master Rules, CBT RPG, A Guide to the Clans, Warriors of Kerensky, or Era Report: 3052) include any mention of any such stipulation.

Moreover, if there were some cultural imperative on the Clans' part to generally eschew indirect fire (despite their technology being capable of doing so), it would have been part of the proscriptions of Zellbrigen. Yet, such a statement is likewise absent.
(And yes, I am also quite aware of the distinction between Zell (the code of conduct) and Honor Level (an assessment of the situation that determined to what degree Zell is enforced).)

At this point, there is not only no evidence to support the claim that the Clans are technologically unable (or culturally disinclined) to use their LRMs as indirect fire weapons (or to make use of indirect fire in general), but evidence to the contrary (including their use of TAG and Arrow IV artillery, their use of TAG-compatible semi-guided LRMs, their use of Narc systems, the existance of Clan Mech Mortars, and so on).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 12 June 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[Viper69]

Edited by Viper69, 12 June 2013 - 06:03 AM.

[Ol Dirty Bastard]

Again you quote TT rules... you support your point well, I give you that, but you are still focused on tabletop. I know for a fact that it is stated within the Jade Phoenix Trilogy, but I am not going to re-read the entire series to find the one or two sentences where it says it. Nothing says they NEVER use missiles for indirect fire, they are still capable of that, I never said they werent. I simply stated they take a much shallower approach according to LORE, and it could be one way to help balance the superior tech, that nobody else had thought about yet. get off my {Richard Cameron}.

[Shamsterdam]

Posting this here just for clarification:
From Page 46 of Bloodname from the Jade Phoenix trilogy...it looks like they CLRM flght paths are configurable.

At the same moment Pershaw gave the order, the LRM-equipped 'Mechs in his command sent off a barrage that might have been compared to a similar massive flight of warrior arrows in some ancient battle. Unlike arrows, of course, these missiles were riding invisible beams to their targets. He had ordered half his 'Mechs to fire the long-range missiles at a flat trajectory, while the other half lobbed theirs in a high arc. If nothing else, this forced the Wolves to allocate their anti-missile systems to one group or the other, with the chance that some of the other missiles would hit without being engaged.

[Viper69]

Does high arc mean indirect fire? If the firing mech has LOS it is not indirect fire. Firing in a high arc only means he is tilting back so their AMS has to either cover low or cover high I assume.

[Milocinia]

People still crying about clan tech when they still haven't been able to balance IS tech?

[Viper69]

Kyocera, on 12 June 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

People still crying about clan tech when they still haven't been able to balance IS tech?

Do you see anyone crying sir?

[Strum Wealh]

Shamsterdam, on 12 June 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Posting this here just for clarification:
From Page 46 of Bloodname from the Jade Phoenix trilogy...it looks like they CLRM flght paths are configurable.

At the same moment Pershaw gave the order, the LRM-equipped 'Mechs in his command sent off a barrage that might have been compared to a similar massive flight of warrior arrows in some ancient battle. Unlike arrows, of course, these missiles were riding invisible beams to their targets. He had ordered half his 'Mechs to fire the long-range missiles at a flat trajectory, while the other half lobbed theirs in a high arc. If nothing else, this forced the Wolves to allocate their anti-missile systems to one group or the other, with the chance that some of the other missiles would hit without being engaged.

Thanks for the quotation.
(Though, FWIW, my omnibus edition has the passage printed on page 99 in ch. 12 of Bloodname... )

Viper69, on 12 June 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Does high arc mean indirect fire? If the firing mech has LOS it is not indirect fire. Firing in a high arc only means he is tilting back so their AMS has to either cover low or cover high I assume.

The preceding passage seems to imply that the combat site - Glory Plain - is largely flat and without much in the way of cover or obstacles.

Star Captain Dwillt Radick's BattleMech, a Viper, surged with power and what he liked to think of as confidence, as the 'Mech's own eagerness to get into battle, an alacrity that duplicated his own. As he settled into the cockpit's command couch for another check of his instrumentation, he called up terrain maps onto his secondary screen. Kael Pershaw's choice of combat site had surprised him. It was a relative flat-land, and except for a swamp into which no MechWarrior would take his 'Mech by choice, offered few hiding places. A lot of scrub and large clumps of shaggy bushes dotted the ugly, so-called Glory Plain. This area deserved neither the name of plain nor of Glory. Plains were meant to be magnificent, even majestic—fields of grain moving with the wind, brilliantly green grasslands, open spaces with few civilized interruptions.
(emphasis mine)

This would seem to imply that this particular case of high-arc vs low/no-arc is not necessarily a function of direct vs indirect LRM fire (unless, of course, we assume that the Falcon 'Mechs are arranged in multiple lines, in which case the rearward lines would have to fire in high arcs - and possibly indirectly - to avoid hitting the forward lines).

[Pando]

It almost feels wrong counting down the months (again). Well lets begin.

Thirteen.

Edited by Pando, 14 June 2013 - 10:48 PM.

[Iacov]

Pando, on 14 June 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

Thirteen.

that number sounds horrible

hope there'll be artwork soon...makes the waiting less painful
at least I want to know what the mad dog will look like!

[Pando]

Iacov, on 15 June 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

that number sounds horrible

hope there'll be artwork soon...makes the waiting less painful
at least I want to know what the mad dog will look like!

Me too.

[Dracol]

Just want to put forth a little bit of info concerning clan tag/narc and the at first glance contridiction to zellbrigan.

When fighting clan v clan, zellbrigan was adhered to and indirect fire from multiple sources against one target was forbidden.
BUT, not all engagements were against foes deemed worthy of zellbrigan. Renegades and pirates come to mind. These foes were brought down swiftly and brutally, if I recall correctly.

Edited by Dracol, 15 June 2013 - 11:22 PM.

[War Steiner]

First, the simple solution would be when the game goes Gold, to reset the clock to September 3049 (assuming the game goes gold in September). It is Beta after all and resets are expected. Second, with modifying mechs in the mech bay, pretty much give us Omni-Mechs. It makes NO SENSE to do so except to allow players something else to do. Mech customization should be limited to paint jobs and cockpit items - at least until the Omni-mechs appear in 3050 and IS designs about SEVEN YEARS later. Until then, that is what Hero mechs are for. Finally, to all the {Noble MechWarrior} Clanners out there: I for one appreciate the ability to roll play the in game experience and I applaud you for creating a character and living by it, however don't be a jack *** and disco because you are not getting your circle of equals or give a flying f#$k about Zellbrigen. If your roll play was real life, you'd be dead or captured, since a disco equates to surrender or punching out. You're mechs would be forfeit and you clan challenged to annihilation or absorsion - though I doubt any clan would want the stink of those who surrender without a fight - honorably or not.

Edited by War Steiner, 15 June 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[Pando]

War Steiner, on 15 June 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

First, the simple solution would be when the game goes Gold, to reset the clock to September 3049 (assuming the game goes gold in September). It is Beta after all and resets are expected. Second, with modifying mechs in the mech bay, pretty much give us Omni-Mechs. It makes NO SENSE to do so except to allow players something else to do. Mech customization should be limited to paint jobs and cockpit items - at least until the Omni-mechs appear in 3050 and IS designs about SEVEN YEARS later. Until then, that is what Hero mechs are for. Finally, to all the {Noble MechWarrior} Clanners out there: I for one appreciate the ability to roll play the in game experience and I applaud you for creating a character and living by it, however don't be a jack *** and disco because you are not getting your circle of equals or give a flying f#$k about Zellbrigen. If your roll play was real life, you'd be dead or captured, since a disco equates to surrender or punching out. You're mechs would be forfeit and you clan challenged to annihilation or absorsion - though I doubt any clan would want the stink of those who surrender without a fight - honorably or not.

I disconnect frequently, not because I'm running but because I have malformed packet issues that cause frequent disconnects. You need to factor in "playable and current game state" .

[Dracol]

War Steiner, on 15 June 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

First, the simple solution would be when the game goes Gold, to reset the clock to September 3049 (assuming the game goes gold in September). It is Beta after all and resets are expected. Second, with modifying mechs in the mech bay, pretty much give us Omni-Mechs. It makes NO SENSE to do so except to allow players something else to do. Mech customization should be limited to paint jobs and cockpit items - at least until the Omni-mechs appear in 3050 and IS designs about SEVEN YEARS later.
<snip>

Ok, I maybe shot for proposing this, BUT I am putting forth this idea in the name of balance and it directly ties to your mention of omni-mechs and customization.

As we have already seen, near limitless customization has created some designs people consider OP. If this were to be allowed with clan mechs, the problem will escalate.

For balance purposes:
IS mechs continue with the current customization options
Clan mechs would be limited to the variants available in the tech readouts

Flavor/Lore connection:
IS mechs (for mercs at least) are their personal ride and open to customization. Any and all builds would be viable since they own it themselves and command would want them in rides they feel they were effective in. (and I know, this doesn't really cover the 6 MG jagers and such...)
Clan mechs and their rigid society have developed configurations of each mech for specific scenarios. When they are prepared for drop, the tech class receives orders from the commander on which variant to out fit each mech.

It would be like comparing hand made car build from a variety of car parts (IS) to an off the line production car with a set number of options available (Clan)

More Lore stuff: Omni-mechs were designed for quick swap out of weapons on the battlefield to meet the required circumstances of the engagement... not necessarily so that a warrior can put whatever weapons they want on it.

TT backing for IS customizations:
As stated, omni mechs were designed for rapid reconfiguration. This does not mean IS were never customized. The 2nd edition box set that got me introduced to Battletech as a kid came with all the rules needed to create custom mechs, and not a single clan mech was sighted within its pages. Just because it wasn't easy for pilots to customize their rides does not mean it was not possible.

Edited by Dracol, 16 June 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[Pando]

updated the Op with this picture. more to come