67 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

BaP was a great solution to ECM. I'm satisfied.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

General Taskeen, on 09 June 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Unfortunately that's not what ECM is. ECM is an Information Warfare tool in Battle Tech, as in when Mechs target an ECM Mech, they do not get any information on the variant type, armor levels, weapon loadout, or equipment it carries (they are however still able to target it). BAP was used to counter that if they entered into each other's range envelope.

That isn't what ECM does in tabletop. All it does in tabletop is disrupt a bunch of active-targeting and detection gear. Artemis IV, Narc, BAP, and (most importantly) C3 networks. It's a lot less powerful in tabletop than it is in MWO, sure, but you're just making **** up at this point.

Also, who still has issues with ECM?

[DocBach]

lockwoodx, on 09 June 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

BaP was a great solution to ECM. I'm satisfied.

I think BAP countering ECM's missile defeat was good, and actually how the two function in the board game (Well, sort of, as ECM was a soft counter that provided a +1 modifier to hit rather than hardcountering missiles completely) - however there is a yin to that yang;

Beagle is suppose to provide information similar to seismic sensors, ECM blocks that information so ECM mechs can sneak up if they remain out of line of sight. Beagle needs a buff so its useful to take beyond just countering ECM's lock on missiles, and actually provide information. Right now the only thing ecm and beagle really do is deny or allow the use of missiles, rather than provide or deny information.

http://mwomercs.com/...29#entry2435429

[LawDawg]

Phlyk, on 09 June 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Honestly, I barely even notice ECM anymore and can't even remember the last time I felt frustrated by it now.

^^ True Story..

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

DocBach, on 09 June 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

I think BAP countering ECM's missile defeat was good, and actually how the two function in the board game (Well, sort of, as ECM was a soft counter that provided a +1 modifier to hit rather than hardcountering missiles completely)

What are you talking about? ECM shuts down BAP hard in tabletop. BAP is almost entirely useless in tabletop to boot: it has zero effect outside of double-blind games. On top of this, ECM has no effect whatsoever on non-Artemis LRMs in tabletop.

MWO is its own game, and made ECM and BAP more important than they are in tabletop. Good on PGI. But let's not pretend ECM or BAP matter one bit in tabletop before the introduction of C3 networks.

[DocBach]

Zharot, on 09 June 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

What are you talking about? ECM shuts down BAP hard in tabletop. BAP is almost entirely useless in tabletop to boot: it has zero effect outside of double-blind games. On top of this, ECM has no effect whatsoever on non-Artemis LRMs in tabletop.

MWO is its own game, and made ECM and BAP more important than they are in tabletop. Good on PGI. But let's not pretend ECM or BAP matter one bit in tabletop before the introduction of C3 networks.

In Tactical Operations rules, ECM has a third ability called Ghost Target mode which adds a +1 modifier to hit for attacks against ECM protected 'Mechs, which Beagle is a direct counter to. In double blind rules, Beagle also gains probing abilities and increased sensor detection, ECM counters that.

So beyond the standard rules where all ECM does is counter BAP, C3, Artemis and Narc, the interaction between ECM and Beagle gets a bit deeper, we have half of that now with Beagle countering ECM's affects on LRMs, however we still have the information gathering function, and ECM's denial of that, missing from MWO.

ie Information Warfare - right now Information Warfare boils down to negating ECM to use missiles rather than gathering or hiding information.

Edited by DocBach, 09 June 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

DocBach, on 09 June 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

In Tactical Operations rules

Stop right there. TacOps is a book full of optional house rules for grogs who think BT isn't complicated enough. What's more, those rules were introduced to address the demands of fans who liked how ECM worked in Mechwarrior games and wanted to introduce it to tabletop Battletech!

[Mycrus]

Enough about ecm already...

[DocBach]

Zharot, on 09 June 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Stop right there. TacOps is a book full of optional house rules for grogs who think BT isn't complicated enough. What's more, those rules were introduced to address the demands of fans who liked how ECM worked in Mechwarrior games and wanted to introduce it to tabletop Battletech!

You brought up that Beagle only has a use in double blind games, which for all intensive purposes the sensor game of MWO is double blind. Why should ECM get all of its utility, but Beagle is missing its key abilities to gather information?

[General Taskeen]

Zharot, on 09 June 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

That isn't what ECM does in tabletop. All it does in tabletop is disrupt a bunch of active-targeting and detection gear. Artemis IV, Narc, BAP, and (most importantly) C3 networks. It's a lot less powerful in tabletop than it is in MWO, sure, but you're just making **** up at this point.

No, actually I'm not making stuff up. You should probably do your homework before you type things. These things have been discussed in the 60+ Page ECM threads with huge think-tankers like myself and others.

* Blocks Artemis IV Accuracy, Blocks NARC Beacon, Blocks BAP's Features (detecting shut down mechs, enhanced range), blocks C3 target bonuses
* Blocks Mech Loadout/Armor Readout
* Allows Ghost Targeting (Radar Spoofing the enemy with false radar contacts)
* When ECM enters BAP range, you can roll with BAP and the other ECM guy has to reveal their Mech information (I.E. Information Warfare)
* BAP is fully aware when it is being jammed (Situational Awareness)

^Better Information Warfare. Fact.

ECM is more balanced in other Mech Titles. Also fact.

Edited by General Taskeen, 09 June 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

ECM is fine... this guy just wants his no-aim-required, no-line-of-sight-required, auto-CT-hitting LRMs to be even better.

[General Taskeen]

PEEFsmash, on 09 June 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

ECM is fine... this guy just wants his no-aim-required, no-line-of-sight-required, auto-CT-hitting LRMs to be even better.

Oh so ECM is fine that its just a combat tool for On/Off Streaks? Because that's all SSRM's are, auto-botting missiles. Thems sure is some great "information warfare."

More like InforStreakmation Warfare. And I hardly use LRM's, so your point is invalid. Most of you kids have no idea what balanced ECM looks like from MW:LL.

Edited by General Taskeen, 09 June 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Soy]

His argument wasn't with you mr "i want this game to be LL" it towards the op.

Obvs is obvs @ 11, now here's Brick with sports

[Thuzel]

ECM is never going to get "fixed". Not the way you (or I) want it to, anyway.

PGI has spent half a year tweaking it and there's no way they're going to just throw all that away. Honestly, if they didn't listen to the community when it was first introduced and there were no counters, they're definitely not going to listen now.

ECM is the beloved pet of someone way up the ladder at PGI, it's not going anywhere no matter what.

[PEEFsmash]

General Taskeen, on 09 June 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Oh so ECM is fine that its just a combat tool for On/Off Streaks? Because that's all SSRM's are, auto-botting missiles. Thems sure is some great "information warfare."

More like InforStreakmation Warfare. And I hardly use LRM's, so your point is invalid. Most of you kids have no idea what balanced ECM looks like from MW:LL.

I don't really know what you're talking about, I was talking to the OP, but I think streaks should not be the best (or even that good) of a light weapon. It should be a mediocre weapon for people who can't aim or move well. Higher skill players should be able to exercise their skill with lasers or SRMs and beat streak users 1v1 every time. Right now, it's the opposite.

I am happy with ECM right now.

[General Taskeen]

This is what ECM is and every subsequent half-*** balancing act is:

[


Here's a:



The spirit of Battle Tech has been lost I'm afraid. Nothing can stop PGI now.

Edited by General Taskeen, 09 June 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[Thuzel]

General Taskeen, on 09 June 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

This is what ECM is and every subsequent half-*** balancing act is:

Spoiler

[

[...]

The spirit of Battle Tech has been lost I'm afraid. Nothing can stop PGI now.

So very very true.

It's been one half-assed fix after another. At some point, it got so comical I could hear the Benny Hill song in the background.

Ref:

Edited by Thuzel, 09 June 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[DocBach]

My biggest complaint about ECM currently is that the things it exists to block counter it - give the Beagle some sort of information warfare ability as advertised as one of the key pillars of the game and let ECM block that, so they can counter each other.

Imagine that, two 1.5 ton pieces of equipment that are worth taking by themselves but have a complex interaction with each other.

[General Taskeen]

DocBach, on 09 June 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Imagine that, two 1.5 ton pieces of equipment that are worth taking by themselves but have a complex interaction with each other.

We're not allowed to imagine. Imagination is OP.

[Odins Fist]

I don't run ECM currently, and it doesn't bother me.. Is that Over Powered.??