96 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

For inspiration on C3 in a MW game, this is some good reading:

http://wiki.mechlivi...ex.php?title=C3

Basically since they re-added Radar (from the old games) in MW:LL, they made C3 function as a bonus to that radar system, which only works in Active. As shown in the example images, if you have several people spread out across the map within appropriate distance you can make a huge overlapping active radar network.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Voted yes as I am all for anything to add to the information, and electrical warfare aspect of the game.

[Alex Warden]

i would do it a little like the OP suggests, but w/o allowing the "spotted" targets to be lockable by missles... an AoE NARC is the least we need, that would make NARC obsolete and also the UAV must fear about it´s job... which i wouldn´t like now that NARC is finally usable.. ... target info sharing on the other hand is a nice idea, so that you can unveil enemy mechs and give your teammates info of their loadouts and conditions

Edited by Alex Warden, 14 June 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[Mitsuragi]

My two cents:

- The seismic module should enable seismic detection IF BAP is equipped.
- BAP should detect any mech within 120 meters regardless of LoS
- BAP should detect weight-class of mechs outside of LoS but within BAP range

And while we're at it ECM changes:

- ECM loses all inherit properties
- ECM acts like Radar Deprivation module and provides this benefit to friendly mechs within 180 meters
- ECM increases lock time to enemies within LoS by 50%
- ECM increases time to gather paper doll info by 100%

[DocBach]

A bit of a necropost -- I wonder if Russ will put this in if I can get an 80% census?

[RighteousDude]

You all do realize that C.A.P. and B.A.P. reduce the target INFORMATION GATHERING time by 1.5 seconds right? couple that with the module "Target Info Gathering" and you have no delay between hitting R, and knowing where the bad guy has no armor. if it did nothing else, it would be on all my 'mechs... WHY DOES NOBODY USE BAP!?!?!? It seems that nobody fully understands what it's capabilities are. you can target an ECM mech at 180-260 meters. you cancel his ECM at 150 meters. This is a TEAM BASED GAME. If you don't have BAP, CAP or ECM YOU"RE NOT BEING an EFFECTIVE member of a team. You're just another ill advised, pig headed CoD player with as many meta weapons as you can cram. THIS IS MECHWARRIOR. not CoD.
If you don't have BAP, AMS, LRMS, Ballistic, and energy weapons, then you must be a light mech with the speed and small size to avoid abstructing, and having an abstructed LOS (LINE OF SIGHT) Because what happens when you have a jenner on your team that gets pasted in the first 5 seconds. what happens whe you have a raven hiding in back with 2 ER LL. Nobody understands the "ROLE WARFARE" of this game anymore. It's not snipers, brawlers, jump snipers, missile boats. YOU ARE PILOTING A BATTLEMECH. if you cannot move 150 K/h, and all you have is 6 UAC/5s, guess what, you're only good for 1 situation. In a game that's 12v12 how can you be expected to be a contributing member if you can only be effective under 1 set of circumstances.... how many maps are there? I hate hearing people say, "oh, this isn't a good map for me, I run really hot" TAKE OFF 1 OF THOSE LL's, and put on a targeting comp, heatsink, BAP, and an AMS, you'll double your heat efficiency, double your TEAM EFFECTIVENESS. ROLE WARFARE IS: Light mech. Medium mech. Heavy Mech. Assault mech. if you run around thinking you're a sniper, what happens with 2 jenners and an ECM raven come up behind you. Do you survive? Don't lie, you'ld die just like the rest of them. because you didn't run BAP, your teammates never even saw that you were being attacked. and if they did notice you under low signal, they said, ah, it's just 1 guy, he's a stalker, he can handle it......

[Thejuggla]

What if also your teammates can see all the enemies you see regardless if targeted, including giving a lock for lrms against un targeted.

[Lily from animove]

Zharot, on 09 June 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

BAP also increases your sensor range, can detect shut-down mechs, and gives you an information readout on enemies faster.

wow and one ecm negates that all at any range, beagle extended probe, hardly active at all.

[Captain Stiffy]

CITYTECH - THE ADVANCED GAME OF 3050 COMBAT (2nd Edition)
FASA Corporation - Copyright 1997

BEAGLE ACTIVE PROBE (pp.68)

Capable of detecting and identifying even shut-down and camouflaged units at distances much greater than standard-issue electrong warfare (EW) suites, the active probe makes a valuable addition to any recon unit.
In CityTech, the Beagle active probe will detect any hidden BattleMech or vehicle (but not infantry) if, at the end of a Movement Phase, the concealed unit lies inside the probe's operating radius (5 hexes for Clan probes and 4 hexes for Inner Sphere probes) and line of sight exists between the unit carrying the probe and the concealed unit. An active probe will not detect units hidden underwater.

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 27 November 2014 - 07:08 PM.

[ImperialKnight]

BAP already

- increases sensor range
- decrease info gathering time
- counters ECM up to 360m
- detects shut down mechs

What more do you want from it? To the point where people start complaining about it like ECM?

[Tarogato]

I never realised this... but the ECM we have now is basically exactly a canon Angel ECM Suite. A proper Guardian ECM Suite doesn't have the umbrella at all and it's range is lower.

BAP is supposed to be a simple sensor boost, G-ECM is supposed to be a simple counter. And then there's C3, since mechs aren't supposed to be able to share target data at all without it (as far as I'm aware, that's how it works in TT/lore, I could be mistaken, though)

Would would be really cool, I think, is if we saw:

- C3 simplified (no master or slave, exactly like MWLL and linked above by Taskeen: http://wiki.mechlivi...ex.php?title=C3)
- simply put, you NEED C3 to see any targets outside of LoS at all. (or if this is too strong an effect, you could make it so that doritos are shared regardless of C3, but you can't actually lock onto a dorito without LoS unless you have a C3 connection to a mech that does have LoS - I think this would be a nice compromise, because you get the locations broadcasted, but you're deprived of the actual target data unless you have C3 equipped)
- C3 functionality added to the BAP as a two-in-one. No need to equip separately.
- Your target data gets shared with any mechs connected to the network via overlapping sensor ranges.
- If an enemy ECM comes in range of any mech in the C3 network, that mech looses its C3 functionality and its radar is scrambled/low signal. If that mech served as the bridge between any two otherwise unconnected C3 units, their connection is severed.
- A BAP can switch to counter mode, where it disables an ECM in range, but it cannot share any targets via C3.
- LRMs need a C3/BAP in order to connect to the network and launch at targets indirectly at all.

Can you say... electronic warfare?

Edited by Tarogato, 28 November 2014 - 01:38 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Tarogato, on 28 November 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

I never realised this... but the ECM we have now is basically exactly a canon Angel ECM Suite. A proper Guardian ECM Suite doesn't have the umbrella at all and it's range is lower.

Your "realization" is completely wrong.

• "The Guardian ECM Suite is a broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure device, designed to reduce the efficiency of enemy long-range scanning and surveillance equipment. The Guardian interferes with sensor readings, preventing identification at ranges of more than 180 meters. Closer than that, 'Mech pilots usually rely on their own vision in case their sensors cannot override the Guardian's jamming." - Technical Readout: 2750, pg.10
  
• "The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensorsa broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors. This signal projects a "cloak" to a radius of 180 meters, protecting all units within the circle. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading, preventing identification. By the time the enemy gets within visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but most pilots rely on their own eyes." - Technical Readout: 2750, pg. 92
  
• "An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a 'bubble' around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM." - Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised), pg. 136 & Total Warfare, pg. 134
  
• "Around the end of the Reunification War, Johnston Industries (a Terran Hegemony company, working in partnership with Yelm Weapons of Fletcher) debuted the Guardian ECM suite on the newly deployed Nightshade VTOL. This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical 'bubble' roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear." - TechManual, pg. 213
  
• "The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM (see p. 134, TW), but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model." - Tactical Operations, pg. 279

Guardian does indeed produce - and has always produced - a "bubble" with a radius of 180 meters (6 TT hexes).
Angel uses all of the same characteristics that Guardian does (including creating a bubble identical in size to that created by Guardian), plus a number of additional special rules of its own.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 17 December 2014 - 09:40 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Tarogato, on 28 November 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

And then there's C3, since mechs aren't supposed to be able to share target data at all without it (as far as I'm aware, that's how it works in TT/lore, I could be mistaken, though)

You are, indeed, mistaken.

"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate." - TechManual, pg. 39

The integrated data sharing system is the lore-based explanation behind the ability to use the Indirect Fire gameplay rules (since the spotter must be able to share targeting data with the attacker). The presence (or absence) of C3 canonically has no effect on a 'Mech's ability to act as a spotter for a unit mate.

• "Indirect fire allows a unit without a direct line of sight to a target to attack that target, though a friendly unit must have a valid line of sight to the target (this unit is referred to as the spotter). An attacker with a valid LOS to a target cannot make an LRM indirect fire attack, even if that attack would have a better to-hit modifier." - Total Warfare, pg. 111
  
• "C3-equipped units spotting targets for or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect Fire rules (see p. 111), and gain no benefit from a C3 network." - Total Warfare, pg. 131

Edited by Strum Wealh, 17 December 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Tarogato]

Strum Wealh, on 17 December 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

You are, indeed, mistaken.

"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate." - TechManual, pg. 39

The integrated data sharing system is the lore-based explanation behind the ability to use the Indirect Fire gameplay rules (since the spotter must be able to share targeting data with the attacker). The presence (or absence) of C3 canonically has no effect on a 'Mech's ability to act as a spotter for a unit mate.

• "Indirect fire allows a unit without a direct line of sight to a target to attack that target, though a friendly unit must have a valid line of sight to the target (this unit is referred to as the spotter). An attacker with a valid LOS to a target cannot make an LRM indirect fire attack, even if that attack would have a better to-hit modifier." - Total Warfare, pg. 111
  
• "C3-equipped units spotting targets for or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect Fire rules (see p. 111), and gain no benefit from a C3 network." - Total Warfare, pg. 131

Cool! I love when people actually reference sources! Thank you. =]

[Tarogato]

Strum Wealh, on 17 December 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Your "realization" is completely wrong.

• "The Guardian ECM Suite is a broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure device, designed to reduce the efficiency of enemy long-range scanning and surveillance equipment. The Guardian interferes with sensor readings, preventing identification at ranges of more than 180 meters. Closer than that, 'Mech pilots usually rely on their own vision in case their sensors cannot override the Guardian's jamming." - Technical Readout: 2750, pg.10
  
• "The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensorsa broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors. This signal projects a "cloak" to a radius of 180 meters, protecting all units within the circle. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading, preventing identification. By the time the enemy gets within visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but most pilots rely on their own eyes." - Technical Readout: 2750, pg. 92
  
• "An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a 'bubble' around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM." - Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised), pg. 136 & Total Warfare, pg. 134
  
• "Around the end of the Reunification War, Johnston Industries (a Terran Hegemony company, working in partnership with Yelm Weapons of Fletcher) debuted the Guardian ECM suite on the newly deployed Nightshade VTOL. This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical 'bubble' roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear." - TechManual, pg. 213
  
• "The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM (see p. 134, TW), but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model." - Tactical Operations, pg. 279

Guardian does indeed produce - and has always produced - a "bubble" with a radius of 180 meters (6 TT hexes).

Angel uses all of the same characteristics that Guardian does (including creating a bubble identical in size to that created by Guardian), plus a number of additional special rules of its own.

Damn, you're good. 'k. Back to my hidey hole of ignorance.

[Idealsuspect]

DocBach, on 11 June 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

We need something to let us actually participate in gaining information without a module slot - and the fact that its range would be shorter and ECM would defeat its ability to do so would give it less utility then seismic, hence justify why it could be bought with just c-bill in comparison to seismic's XP requirement.

Bad idea ... cause ALLs mechs can carry a BAP and only 2% of mechs can carry an ECM.

• With this everybody will put a BAP in every mech ( also less weapons in average )

• With this everybody will be able to see any move around him also nobody will move again ...

• With this no more solo brawling or solo recon people will play as turrets, Only news players will try it then die with 2 embush alpha, then upset teamates and at last new players will left this game faster than now...

• With this ECM will be usefull again and this game will become ( again ) a harrasers light ecm snipers again ...

No thanks.

Edit : Wow this post is so hold sorry hahaha didnt realise it was a necropost

Edited by Idealsuspect, 02 February 2015 - 07:56 PM.

[VinJade]

nice thing about B/AP is that all mechs can mount them if enough space, weight & money but that would also mean that the mech would have to give up 1.5 tons and two crits from somewhere, but with these changes it would be worth having.