96 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Magscan sensors are pretty much exactly how you describe, they're suppose to have very limited vision range and see metalic anomalies through terrain.

[Strum Wealh]

Skyfaller, on 12 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Seismic should be a vision mode.

An overlay.. normal vision and if seismic detects something (100m basic range) it will display a ghost thru-wall generic mech shape. Modules should only extend the range of the module and improve the ID of targets detected.

DocBach, on 15 July 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Magscan sensors are pretty much exactly how you describe, they're suppose to have very limited vision range and see metalic anomalies through terrain.

As it happens, I submitted a question about MagScan in Ask the Devs 43...

Quote

Are there still plans to implement the "magnetometer"/"magscan"/"magnetic anomaly detector" (described in Dev Blog 04 as "Allows the pilot to see metal through solid objects" & in Dev Blog 02 as "Allows players to detect metal and metal densities which can uncover a BattleMech hiding behind a building") as an additional sensor type, and in what ways will it be similar to and different from the currently-available detection modes (unaided visual, low-light/night vision, radar, thermal, and seismic)?

Though, the Sensor Range Table on page 222 of Tactical Operations gives the range of MagScan as 900 meters (30 hexes, at 30 meters per hex) - not exactly "a very limited vision range".
Then again, the same table gives the range of seismic as 180 meters (6 hexes), the range of radar as 720 meters (24 hexes), the range of IR/thermal as 900 meters (30 hexes), and the range of Beagle as 1080 meters (36 hexes).
For MWO, radar range is at 800 meters (slightly longer than TT), Beagle's range is at 1000 meters (slightly shorter than TT), and basic seismic is reportedly being brought down to 180 meters (same as TT).

Also, MagScan is supposed to be able to see through buildings, but not through terrain ("If magscan sensors are being used, any unit (except conventional foot and jump infantry) within range is spotted regardless of LOS, unless a hill or building blocks LOS, in which case the sensor cannot detect the target unit."), and MagScan is supposed to be mass-sensitive ("For any unit from 80 to 100 tons, the range of the sensor is expanded for that unit(s) alone by 1 hex" and "Units that weigh less than 20 tons cannot be detected by a magscan sensor, including all infantry").

IMO, MagScan should have the same range as thermal vision, and I would prefer to see it as an additional vision mode inherent to all 'Mechs, rather than as a Module (as was done with seismic).

Thoughts?

[DocBach]

Perhaps they could recycle the old thermal blue vision mode where more dense (heavier) 'Mechs are more visible, but make things like terrain and other LOS blocking things hard to make out so navigation in Magscan mode would be very difficult. I'd still probably keep it a module like seismic sensors, though, as its a pretty powerful ability and players would have to decide what abilities they want to bring when choosing modules.

[DocBach]

Looks like this thread was brought back to life by someone voting no, but not mentioning why.

[Strum Wealh]

Well, I can't speak for anyone voting "no" (as I voted "yes"), though I would like to see Beagle get more of the abilities it has in BattleTech - namely, some the of abilites it has under TacOps' advanced rules.

• able to detect hidden units (perhaps implementable as "can maintain targeting through buildings, forests, and weather, but not through hills or other solid terrain"; TacOps, pg. 99 and Total Warfare, pgs. 259-260)
  
• targeting bonus (perhaps implementable as a slight (~5%?) boost to missile lock speed and/or a slight (~5%?) boost to convergence (if convergence should ever be re-made to be non-instantaneous); TacOps, pgs. 99)
  
• greater information gathering (perhaps implementable as seeing a HTAL armor display, component health, and remaining ammo counts of a target (rather than the "paper doll" and a simple weapon listing); TacOps, pgs. 99 and 219)
  
• can detect minefields (if Thunder LRMs and/or Thunder Arrow Missiles are ever implemented; TacOps, pgs. 99 and 210)
  
• can see ghost targets (generated by ECM Suites and Command Consoles, if the ability is implemented) for what they are (TacOps, pgs. 99 and 101-102)
  
• can monitor and make use of remote sensors (TacOps, pgs. 224 and 375)
  
• can have its abilities degraded (or even completely negated) in maps (or just small sections thereof) subject to heavy electromagnetic interference (TacOps, pg. 55)

That Beagle can now burn through Guardian's ECM field at short range (something it could do, albeit poorly, in TT under the advanced TT rules) helps a lot.
Admittedly, most of the above-listed items would require new game mechanics to be implemented... but they'd still be interesting!

[Johnny Z]

What about a ping effect like sonar with 1 minute cooldown. This shows other mech's location as well as the beagle's.

[Prezimonto]

Wow. I forgot about ghost targets.

ECM would be such a more interesting item if it generated ghost targets instead of anti-missile bubble.

Let it generate 3 or 4 extra "targets" to cycle through... each with increase lock on times for missiles. BAP can pick out the targets, but not counter the lock on times or increased missile spread(Anti-Artemis).

Imagine the tactics developed if a Raven can run and look like a whole lance... if it can fool seismic/regular targeting then a single light might be able to draw off half an enemy team... until they get direct visual confirmation.

If it's two modes were: 1) stealth for that mech only 2) ghost targets it would be such a more interesting and active use tool.

Sorry for the side step on BAP... but I hate that it's essentially mostly useful for countering ECM bubble.

Edited by Prezimonto, 21 August 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[DocBach]

Ghost Targets would be an awesome addition to ECM's capabilities, and Beagle burning through it would make it useful for scouts so they don't have to run off and get visual confirmation. Its yin and yang abilities like this that are suppose to balance the information warfare system out.

[RandomLurker]

Related, I talked about my ideas for BAP as an ecm-counter here:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2739717

[DocBach]

This is sort of the opposite; it expands Beagle's functions as a radar system, but ECM would defeat it.

[rotagh]

I've been running a BAP for a while on my cent now, and i haven't noticed any differences! It doesn't even seem to detect the shutdown mechs near me..I'd like to actually notice that my BAP actually works.. ( It might be just me, but i don't have to press any button to make it work right?)

[DocBach]

Beagle right now pretty much works as a linear counter to ECM.

[culverin]

IMHO, UAV should not have existed in the first place.
That functionality should have gone straight to the BAP.

[A Man In A Can]

BAP doesn't need Seismic functionality. That's a separate sensor function. Or the ability of the UAV. That's perfectly fine as a separate consumable.

But that 360 degree targeting module should be depreciated into the functionality of the BAP. As the least valuable module, and most logical for BAP, I'd say the BAP would benefit from having that ability built-in, in addition to speeding up target locks by perhaps +25%.

Edited by CYBRN4CR, 30 September 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[101011]

Prezimonto, on 21 August 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Wow. I forgot about ghost targets.

ECM would be such a more interesting item if it generated ghost targets instead of anti-missile bubble.

Let it generate 3 or 4 extra "targets" to cycle through... each with increase lock on times for missiles. BAP can pick out the targets, but not counter the lock on times or increased missile spread(Anti-Artemis).

Imagine the tactics developed if a Raven can run and look like a whole lance... if it can fool seismic/regular targeting then a single light might be able to draw off half an enemy team... until they get direct visual confirmation.

If it's two modes were: 1) stealth for that mech only 2) ghost targets it would be such a more interesting and active use tool.

Sorry for the side step on BAP... but I hate that it's essentially mostly useful for countering ECM bubble.

The problem with ghost targets would be that unless ECM suddenly came with a holoprojecter, visuals would still show only one Raven, and be pretty much pointless.

[DocBach]

101011, on 30 September 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

The problem with ghost targets would be that unless ECM suddenly came with a holoprojecter, visuals would still show only one Raven, and be pretty much pointless.

The idea is all of a sudden a bunch of sensor contacts appear on your screen - if you don't have visuals, you don't know if they are an enemy moving on you or just an apparition.

CYBRN4CR, on 30 September 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

BAP doesn't need Seismic functionality. That's a separate sensor function. Or the ability of the UAV. That's perfectly fine as a separate consumable.

But that 360 degree targeting module should be depreciated into the functionality of the BAP. As the least valuable module, and most logical for BAP, I'd say the BAP would benefit from having that ability built-in, in addition to speeding up target locks by perhaps +25%.

Beagle Active Probe could detect any 'Mech in its 360 degree bubble, as well as probe them for additional data. Right now it doesn't do any of that.

[Prezimonto]

101011, on 30 September 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

The problem with ghost targets would be that unless ECM suddenly came with a holoprojecter, visuals would still show only one Raven, and be pretty much pointless.

I think there's a place for them even without projected false images (though honestly I think a projected false image that generates a target-able signature would be amazing or better yet a deployable, destroyable drone so there's a limit on how many times you can do it). Even if there's no image, if you generate false sensor targets on the other side of hills there's a legitimate need for enemy recon to verify what's going on via line of sight.

Admittedly, this would work better with active vs. passive sensors and ECM having different sets of functionality. It's current function (mostly nerfing LRM's and secondarily hiding teams from sensor lock) is no skill, silly, and awful all at once.

[Leafia Barrett]

If Beagle worked for info warfare, I'd actually go out of my way to find tonnage for it on my Spider again.

[DocBach]

Garth Erlam, on 25 June 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Poor mans Seismic eh... forwarded

Guess the idea didn't take?

[Rasc4l]

Leafia Barrett, on 01 October 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

If Beagle worked for info warfare, I'd actually go out of my way to find tonnage for it on my Spider again.

I've made a suggestion, which would e.g. improve BAP to be able to gather additional information with time (and shorter range) from enemy mechs such as XL or STD engine, modules, ammo locations. It's a bit long read, because it covers some other things as well regarding information warfare.

http://mwomercs.com/...are-your-input/