33 replies to this topic

[VonRunnegen]

Victor Morson, on 09 June 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

I am of the school of thought that you need a balance: Do not list the hard stat ELO numbers, but instead come up with a number of brackets and announce when you enter a new bracket. Basically how StarCraft 2 handles it, more or less.

This brings less number gaming while at the same time more transparency.

I like this personally - has the advantage that when I get stomped by someone better I can shrug it off and hope to be at that level one day.

[Ralgas]

VonRunnegen, on 09 June 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

I like this personally - has the advantage that when I get stomped by someone better I can shrug it off and hope to be at that level one day.

And what does putting a rating add to that concept? Or the concept of an balance idea that can be built upon by the wider community instead of be dismissed by "lol, noob". I'll freely admit i can't be near the top of the brackets as i've yet to hit "cheese hell" that many complain about but that doesn't stop discussion on any balance idea's in a rational way, that at least sections of the community agree with.

Edited by Ralgas, 09 June 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[KharnZor]

Neverfar, on 09 June 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

I guess I can't be that upset about this. If all you have offer is "I disagree" and wish there was a lazy button to click with no context nor any additional thought offered, makes you easier to dismiss.


Which would lead to "lol dood u must b nub where ur rating lol?"

Ahh so you're sh!tting up another thread? You realize posting garbage posts like these invalidates any good posts you make on this subject don't you? so how about you remove your head from your lower bowel and stop being so insulting

[PEEFsmash]

Mechsniper, on 09 June 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

If no one can improve their stats due to being hamstrung by progressively worse teammates, what is the point?

But people do improve their stats past 1:1, even when hamstrung with progressively worse teammates (even the worst teammates they can provide!) My win rate in my last couple hundred games is about 80%, and I know several others with similar #s.

I love how Neverfar and the other anti-competitive people think that good players are good because of certain builds. Good players will take whatever crap-*** build you run, run it better than you on day one match one, then bring it up the top Elo without an issue. The reason that good players don't run crap builds is that they want to practice for competitive drops where you need every little teensie tiny advantage. Oftentimes, the top players don't even play their best build in pugs because it can get boring.

Saying that poptarting is the reason that good players are good shows that person doesn't know anything about good players. Good players were good before jumpjets were even in this game, and when PPCs were unused. Top players will beat you, as I said, with your own build that you got from some 30 year old book you read, and carry their team with it without a problem and maintain a win/loss ratio of 66% or above.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 09 June 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[Ralgas]

Neverfar, on 09 June 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

The great cognitive mistake is the immediate assumption that a high Elo makes one have a more valid opinion.

It is especially wrong when the way to get higher Elo has less to do with wisdom, intelligence, or for that matter good opinionmaking and much more with "how well does this guy do with the current metagame"? Because of that, anything that the guy benefits from he's likely to say "its fine L2P."

If this public Elo thing happened a few months ago, we'd never see the end of poptarting. The game's lights would be out not too long from then from sheer frustration and boredom and the self-declared high Elo elite would whine "why is this game shutting down?"

The other addition is one we are seeing now, there are those that seem unable to adapt to the changes made to balance (and i don't want that to be a debate on if it was right mind) of the meta. There will be players that are at the top simply due to their ability at a 1 trick pony that happens to be the current alpha build and should that change will have a way to fall. How much say should they have?

How about those that are the weaker of 4 mans and are being carried at levels above where they should be their given it's W/L that decides?

Edited by Ralgas, 09 June 2013 - 11:46 PM.

[KharnZor]

Neverfar, on 09 June 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

And what are you doing here exactly?

Protip: bypassing the language filter makes you seem pretty immature.

lol thats all you got?
Protip? seriously?

[Vercinaigh]

KharnZor, on 10 June 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

lol thats all you got?
Protip? seriously?

Dude is a troll, he takes everything you say and turns it against you in a negative manner, has nothing better to do than sit on the forums and belittle anything that isn't his own personal view of a game I doubt he/she/it actually plays.

TL;DR Don't feed the troll, move along.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Neverfar, on 10 June 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

It's all I needed.

Evidence: You came back with a canned Reddit-rage "really?/seriously?" and nothing else.

Reaffirmation: I made useful comments here. You came to whine at me. I heckled you. You continued to whine at me.

Suggestion: Post something useful that isn't "boohoo Neverfar posted something" or I will continue to heckle you.

I have to give it to you, your minorly more entertaining that Vasago Rain.

[Voidcrafter]

Wait... What ELO?
What's that? Do it even exists?
You sure?
Prove it!

You see now?
I have no idea where the hell I am in all those imaginary brackets.
I had some terrible games filled with cheesy builds, then invite a friend and have two in a row that was quite a overkill for the guys in the other team.
Then we get back to the cheesy builds.

How the hell we're supose to know what the truth is?
Oh sure - "it's cause of the ELO this, it's cause of the ELO that" - well... currently not a single person can prove that it's that.
Nor the other way around.

How the hell do you ballance that kind of game?
Half of the people cry that there is something that completely breaks their gameplay, the other half is silent about it.
Or on the oposite side.

It's cool - I don't demand some numbers/numbers of brackets to be put anywhere - I just want to know about some accurate existing formulae to know what's wrong with my matches!
Cause because of the abscent of one, things are pretty blurry you know...

I *THINK* I'm in the higher(if not - the highest) ELO brackets, I don't care about displaying it, using it to abuse people and stuff.
I prefer that I *KNOW* where I'm standing.
Cause when you don't I can easily claim that something is metaging issue where just handful of people think my way.
Or the other way around:
I can claim that there is no problem with something where tons of people are "whining" about it being soo overpowered.

Do that sounds familiar now?
Think about all the pointless argues you had on the forums with someone and be honest here - do you think all these stuff have nothing to do with anyone having no idea where the hell in the ELO he is standing?
And where the oposite point also is?

[M e g a M a n X]

Kaeb Odellas, on 09 June 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

I've already seen folks dismiss each another person's arguments by attacking his Elo score. They don't even know anyone's Elo, and yet they still use it in arguments!

This is true.

I'm a new player here but i think i have an accurate first impression when i say that in most forum topics some player will always wag their epeens saying how good they are and how bad another player is. Then the discussion will turn into sh33t. Gives the impression that most players are immature or sumthing..

And this is the state WITHOUT ELO / RANKINGS. WHAT THE H3LL MORE IF THERE IS?

Edited by M e g a M a n X, 10 June 2013 - 04:37 AM.

[BootHands]

Neverfar, on 09 June 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Yet you still have the adolescent tiering system. "Shut up scrub, you're only tier X!" "u ned 2 b tier X+1 here lol".

Lots of this too.

[tenderloving]

OP is 100% wrong about Riot and LoL. LoL is probably the worst example you could use if you don't want a public ELO system.

They regularly explain that they watch the higher ELO brackets and take their balancing queues from them, and not from the lower ELO brackets. Nerfs typically don't occur until a champ consistently has a higher than 50% win rate in the highest brackets.

If they do nerf a "pub-stomper" champ, they typically match it with a buff that will make the champ more useful at higher levels of play. If a champ is "OP" at lower levels, it is typically "UP" at higher levels, and it needs to be balanced from both ends.

Riot isn't perfect and they can release some broken things, but they quickly fix it and balance is incredible considering the number of champs they are dealing with.

[Mechsniper]

PEEFsmash, on 09 June 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

But people do improve their stats past 1:1, even when hamstrung with progressively worse teammates (even the worst teammates they can provide!) My win rate in my last couple hundred games is about 80%, and I know several others with similar #s.

I love how Neverfar and the other anti-competitive people think that good players are good because of certain builds. Good players will take whatever crap-*** build you run, run it better than you on day one match one, then bring it up the top Elo without an issue. The reason that good players don't run crap builds is that they want to practice for competitive drops where you need every little teensie tiny advantage. Oftentimes, the top players don't even play their best build in pugs because it can get boring.

Saying that poptarting is the reason that good players are good shows that person doesn't know anything about good players. Good players were good before jumpjets were even in this game, and when PPCs were unused. Top players will beat you, as I said, with your own build that you got from some 30 year old book you read, and carry their team with it without a problem and maintain a win/loss ratio of 66% or above.

Although I dislike ELO, and my overall k/d has only fallen 0.01 over the course of 3 months or so I agree with much of this post. However I reiterate, what fun is the game if you get the short bus team every drop you want to pug?

Edited by Mechsniper, 10 June 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[KharnZor]

Neverfar, on 10 June 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

It's all I needed.

Evidence: You came back with a canned Reddit-rage "really?/seriously?" and nothing else.

Reaffirmation: I made useful comments here. You came to whine at me. I heckled you. You continued to whine at me.

Suggestion: Post something useful that isn't "boohoo Neverfar posted something" or I will continue to heckle you.

And you come in here sh!tting up another thread with you moronic attempts at entry level trolling.

You want your message to get out there? How about not resorting to childish personal attacks and laying your argument down for discussion like normal people do. Attacking people that do not hold the same views as you do is childish and shows alot about your character, none of it good.

fyi i believe that ELO should never be made public for obvious reasons.

Edited by KharnZor, 10 June 2013 - 02:42 PM.