64 replies to this topic

[PEEFsmash]

Anyone who thinks that lights need nerfed is, unfortunately, a low level player who is unable to aim, track, and position themselves appropriately.

There are no top level players who think lights are overpowered, because top level players can hit lights, they can counter-strafe, and they don't get out in the open vs multiples.

Knockdowns, in my opinion, are completely unnecessary. If they are added back in, it needs to come with significant buffs to lights, because even as they stand now with no knockdowns, they are becoming increasingly irrelevant at the competitive 8-man level due to bigs being actually so mobile (esp with JJs) and able to so easily crush them in any circumstance. Base-defense mediums are now able to make irrelevant the light's speed advantages when it comes to base capping and defending. Plop a light-killing medium near base, and you don't have to worry about base defense.

I feel that most of the people wanting nerfs for lights without corresponding buffs are actually just bad players who can't aim or hit a light for crap, but in their world, lights are "God-mode unhittable broken."

EDIT: Removed part about public-Elo, even though I think it would be useful here. Having leagues (bronze, silver, gold, etc) would be just as good,.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 10 June 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[InRev]

PEEFsmash, on 10 June 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks that lights need nerfed is, unfortunately, a low level player who is unable to aim, track, and position themselves appropriately.

There are no top level players who think lights are overpowered, because top level players can hit lights, they can counter-strafe, and they don't get out in the open vs multiples.

Knockdowns, in my opinion, are completely unnecessary. If they are added back in, it needs to come with significant buffs to lights, because even as they stand now with no knockdowns, they are becoming increasingly irrelevant at the competitive 8-man level due to bigs being actually so mobile (esp with JJs) and able to so easily crush them in any circumstance. Base-defense mediums are now able to make irrelevant the light's speed advantages when it comes to base capping and defending. Plop a light-killing medium near base, and you don't have to worry about base defense.

One hundred percent agree.

*moves mouse to click "Like This"*

PEEFsmash, on 10 June 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

This thread is one that I would love to have public Elo, because I feel that most of the people wanting nerfs for lights without corresponding buffs are actually just bad players who can't aim or hit a light for crap, but in their world, lights are "God-mode unhittable broken."

Aww man, did you really have to add this? It was such a good post otherwise, and surely any of us who plays the game at a higher level already knows that lights are cannon fodder. We don't need public Elo to refute the contrary Ah well, liking regardless.

[FupDup]

InRev, on 10 June 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Aww man, did you really have to add this? It was such a good post otherwise, and surely any of us who plays the game at a higher level already knows that lights are cannon fodder. We don't need public Elo to refute the contrary Ah well, liking regardless.

I know, that's the same contention I had with that post. Still, public elo would indeed to hilarious to unleash in a specific type of thread like this. (Although it may be problematic in many other thread types). Let's not get too far off-topic. To keep it on-topic, here is my suggested alternative to knockdowns:


FUPDUP'S GREAT KNOCKDOWNS SUBSTITUTE OF EPIC TRUTH AND JUSTICE
-Both mechs take a bit of damage based on their speeds and direction of impact (i.e. head on would hurt more than hitting from behind)...maximum damage of ~8-10?
-Both mechs have their throttle set to 0%
-Both mechs experience a buttload of cockpit shaking for a few moments
-Both mechs stay on their feet

Edited by FupDup, 10 June 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Dartangan, on 10 June 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Forgot where I was for a minute. Here comes the vocal minority!!! Nerf skill!!! Leave hard things out!!! Don't reward things like good piloting, teamwork, communication!!!

Yeah. The height of light piloting being ramming enemy lights as soon as you see them so your team can finish them off. That's both skill-intensive, fun, and in the obvious spirit of a big stompy robots game. Learn to ******* aim.

[PropagandaWar]

Haradim, on 10 June 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

I think lights and mediums need a significant role revamp before knockdown can really be considered. Swarming damage brawls are the only game we have right now, and only heavies and assaults can really elect to not get into close range and still contribute anything.

I'd go so far as to claim that knockdown probably doesn't make sense in our instant action game anyway. Community Warfare, which will likely require organized teams actively operating as such, might be a better place to implement a mechanic that mandates a much higher level of teamwork and team position awareness.

Sorry you are so wrong in this. When knockdowns were in I was still good in my hunchback. Heavys fall over too. Lights were great pilots. As it stands I can take out assaults in a hunchback and heaviesSo can plenty of others. So quit trying to lump us meds and lights who do good into the suck group I myself don't appreciate it. . Were you in CB? if not you have no idea how good it was bug issues aside and dragon bowling fixed. Not having it just gives you permission to hug. Knockdowns were awesome! Awesome, Awesome, Awesome. Again coming from a medium pilot and one who used to pilot lights back then too.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 10 June 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Hotthedd]

FupDup, on 10 June 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

I agree with no knockdowns, but the damage should be the same to both parties. Light mechs already have less armor, meaning that whatever damage they take will hurt them more. For instance, an AC/20 does 20 damage to anything it hits, be it a Hunchback, Atlas, or anything else. The Hunchie, however, will feel it a lot harder because it has less total armor/health.


I'd also like collisions to make both mechs go to 0% throttle and generate some crazy cockpit shake.

This.

EXACTLY this.

[dario03]

I would be ok with the 0 throttle little damage no knockdown. But if they do put knockdown back in I think they should tone down the advantage that it gives heavier mechs. Basically make it easier for heavies to knock themselves over when ramming lighter mechs (but still give the advantage to heavies). It's been so long since we had knockdowns that I don't recall all the details but I remember it being pretty hard to knockdown a heavier mech and really easy for mechs like dragons to just keep knocking lighter mechs down with no downside. I do believe that the knockdowns were based on combined speed and weight difference but I would just turn down the advantage for the heavies. So if you are in a assault going full speed and ram a light going full speed then you should both fall. The light will take more damage but to balance it out the assault should take longer to get up. However if a assault is going something like 70% full speed and still manages to ram a light then the light should fall and the assault should just do a little stumble or something. And if they are both doing 70% then the light should stumble a bit and the assault should just shake a tiny bit. If you mess around with the speed/weight ratio for falling/stumbling and the difference in get up speed enough then I think it could work out. Make it possible to knock over a lighter mech but harder to do and with more risk of knocking yourself over and then being a open target for longer than the light.

[kuangmk11]

My prediction is that collisions never make it back.

[PropagandaWar]

kuangmk11, on 10 June 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

My prediction is that collisions never make it back.

To many of us want it.

[PropagandaWar]

FupDup, on 10 June 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

I know, that's the same contention I had with that post. Still, public elo would indeed to hilarious to unleash in a specific type of thread like this. (Although it may be problematic in many other thread types). Let's not get too far off-topic. To keep it on-topic, here is my suggested alternative to knockdowns:


FUPDUP'S GREAT KNOCKDOWNS SUBSTITUTE OF EPIC TRUTH AND JUSTICE
-Both mechs take a bit of damage based on their speeds and direction of impact (i.e. head on would hurt more than hitting from behind)...maximum damage of ~8-10?
-Both mechs have their throttle set to 0%
-Both mechs experience a buttload of cockpit shaking for a few moments
-Both mechs stay on their feet

Light mech gets hit by light light falls. Light mech doing 80 hits medium, both fall. Medium hits heavy doing 70 they both fall. Heavy hits assault doig 60 assault falls. Long story short certain speeds doing should be able to ram and knockdown. A lot of people I know quit until not only CW comes in but knockdown as well. They don't want the arcade. I have seen jenners suck a awesomes crotch to avoid getting hit. Most of us want the knockdown back. Even past polls knockdown one by a landslide. Also there are plenty of great light pilots out there. CB guys were scary good so will the newer guys once they get used to it.

Vodrin Thales, on 10 June 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

I know the official explanation, but the real reason it was removed was that a goon squad premade went bowling with a group of devs as the pins. Don't delude yourself. And it needs to stay out for the reasons I went over above.

And how are light mechs god mode now? Is any respectable MWO pilot having trouble killing lights now?

really. Ha it was because of the mass warping.

[DocBach]

I want to see mechs that barrel into buildings at 100kph get totally wrecked

[Gaan Cathal]

DocBach, on 10 June 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

I want to see mechs that barrel into buildings at 100kph get totally wrecked

This I'm well onboard with. Collisions should do significant damage (although this needs to be somewhat unhooked from falling damage). What we don't need them also doing is knockdowns, or we'll have dedicated light/medium 'bowlers' knocking targets prone for focus fire. Particularly when MASC hits.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 10 June 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[Deathlike]

There's so many things wrong with this game, like hitbox registration not quite working with HSR and/or the netcode that wanting collisions back is really icing on the proverbial piece of poo that you thought was a brownie while in a drunken haze.

I would like DFA like the next person, but FIX SERIOUS STUFF FIRST before we even consider this feature.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 June 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[kuangmk11]

PropagandaWar, on 10 June 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

To many of us want it.

Only the "vocal minority". "We" also don't want third person, UAVs, airstrikes and coolant flushes. The potential customers don't want it and that's what matters.

[M e g a M a n X]

DocBach, on 10 June 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

I want to see mechs that barrel into buildings at 100kph get totally wrecked

True.

PEEFsmash, on 10 June 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks that lights need nerfed is, unfortunately, a low level player who is unable to aim, track, and position themselves appropriately.

There are no top level players who think lights are overpowered, because top level players can hit lights, they can counter-strafe, and they don't get out in the open vs multiples.

Knockdowns, in my opinion, are completely unnecessary. If they are added back in, it needs to come with significant buffs to lights, because even as they stand now with no knockdowns, they are becoming increasingly irrelevant at the competitive 8-man level due to bigs being actually so mobile (esp with JJs) and able to so easily crush them in any circumstance. Base-defense mediums are now able to make irrelevant the light's speed advantages when it comes to base capping and defending. Plop a light-killing medium near base, and you don't have to worry about base defense.

I feel that most of the people wanting nerfs for lights without corresponding buffs are actually just bad players who can't aim or hit a light for crap, but in their world, lights are "God-mode unhittable broken."

EDIT: Removed part about public-Elo, even though I think it would be useful here. Having leagues (bronze, silver, gold, etc) would be just as good,.

Mechwarrior game that puts a consequence for running into things at full speed:

For me, by definition, is good. Why? because its realistic. Why? because its not actually a skillful thing to ram straight into a building or a 100-ton mech while you are doing your "top-player strafing run". It just makes sense to make some sort of penalty to such a "slightly stupid" mistake.

If top players are really the top players they are, then their light mech piloting should easily avoid crashing into stationary things. It doesn't really prove their top player skills if they desire a "dumber" game wherein crashing has no consequence.

Although i admit that if collision mechanics are introduced, it should be accompanied by some sort of buff for lights since it will put them in another disadvantage.

Some players desire collision mechanics because they just make sense. period. It is not always because
of good or bad playing skill. Sometimes it's just wanting to make the game better / more realistic.

Edited by M e g a M a n X, 10 June 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

I skipped most of the thread so, these may have been mentioned.

While I wasn't around at the time, if the removal of KD was as close, chronologically, to the infamous Goons v. Devs video as people say, I highly doubt it was a direct response. PGI doesn't push anything in that fast. It was almost certainly in the works well before that video was made.

While I agree that HSR has largely negated the anti-light reasons for re-introducing KD, I do think that a re-implentation of the collision aspect is needed. At least increased (and consistent) damage and some kind of shake or something, even if KD isn't implemented.

FupDup, on 10 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

What game are you playing? In the game I play, called Mechwarrior: Online, lights are alpha-strike fodder. Seriously. Shoot them with some ERPPC, Gauss, and/or AC/20. For maximum trolling, take SSRM and BAP. Medium and Large Lasers work as well but they're not as optimal as the aforementioned items.

What game are you playing? A good light pilot is rarely in the firing arc of something large enough to seriously hurt it with an alpha strike long enough to land said strike. If they can't keep out of your arc, they just move is and hump your leg, so close you can't bring your guns to bear, and can't get away because they're both faster and more maneuverable. They can just keep firing banks of Med Lasers into the wall of metal in front of them, but you can't even see them, and couldn't angle your guns enough to shoot them if you could see them.

[EDIT]
While I agree with the OP to some extent, if they choose to implement collision but not Knock-down, they could easily add it at a later time without the uproar that KD would cause among newer players (or the whiney ******* already arguing against it). If they implement KD, I think the OP has a very valid point.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 10 June 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[Ningyo]

I have not experienced the knockdowns that once existed, and I feel knockdowns should be fairly uncommon.

I do think collisions with other mechs, buildings, (or the ground: Falling) should have noticeable effect. (a lot more than the 0.1-0.5 dmg we have now)

Possible options:
Reduced or stopped throttle
Damage (in the 1-10 range)
Knockdown (Probably based on weight, speed, direction you are hit from, if you are shutdown, missing leg, etc...)
---These should not be easy or major griefing could occur.
Screen shake

Also I think kicking (and punching) should be allowed too, though these should not really cause knockdown unless the enemy was shutdown or legged maybe. This should be a damage option for that facehugger right in front of my Atlases foot.


HOWEVER what this game needs most is for convergence to be at least mostly removed, or reworked it causes most of the balance problems in this game and helps cause those one hit kills on lights making them so risky. (I think proper working of convergence is a topic for another thread, though but saying implementing it first I feel is important for this one)

Edited by Ningyo, 10 June 2013 - 11:01 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

kuangmk11, on 10 June 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Only the "vocal minority". "We" also don't want third person, UAVs, airstrikes and coolant flushes. The potential customers don't want it and that's what matters.

Have you seen past poles. They have been severly in favor of bringing knockdown back. In regards to bowler comments. Those mechs fall to and are at just as much risk. Toward the end of knockdowns if a dragon hit a pult it fell on its bum too. The knockdown aspect was fixed. What sucked was the jenner charging in full speed on a lance of mechs and eating it. You would go to shoot and it would warp all over the damn place. Hell I hated it when my own jenner teamate would collide into my hunchy, but it made the game so much more interesting. After the big Hit detection debacle lights forgot how to be awesome. More often than not hits couldnt even be detected on you guys. Now that its all back (Most of the time) you have to relearn.

[FupDup]

PropagandaWar, on 10 June 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

Light mech gets hit by light light falls. Light mech doing 80 hits medium, both fall. Medium hits heavy doing 70 they both fall. Heavy hits assault doig 60 assault falls. Long story short certain speeds doing should be able to ram and knockdown. A lot of people I know quit until not only CW comes in but knockdown as well. They don't want the arcade. I have seen jenners suck a awesomes crotch to avoid getting hit. Most of us want the knockdown back. Even past polls knockdown one by a landslide. Also there are plenty of great light pilots out there. CB guys were scary good so will the newer guys once they get used to it.

Because Dragon bowling offered such deeper gameplay than "arcade." It was also deep for lights to be relegated to the role of deliberately ramming head-on at full speed into the first enemy light they could find. Yeah, right...

OneEyed Jack, on 10 June 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

What game are you playing? A good light pilot is rarely in the firing arc of something large enough to seriously hurt it with an alpha strike long enough to land said strike. If they can't keep out of your arc, they just move is and hump your leg, so close you can't bring your guns to bear, and can't get away because they're both faster and more maneuverable. They can just keep firing banks of Med Lasers into the wall of metal in front of them, but you can't even see them, and couldn't angle your guns enough to shoot them if you could see them.

Mechwarrior: Online. Those l33t light pilots are the extreme minority. Most lights are just target practice. You only need a very short amount of time to land ERPPC or other weapon hits (SSRM lock on pretty fast with Artemis but still not instant). And you'd be surprised at how fast a Catapult or something can turn around, especially with the aid of JJ's. Even without JJ's my Cats can keep up with ankle biters pretty easily unless they do funky JJ gymnastics.

I honestly have never seen deliberate leghumping like that, most of the collisions I see are just an in-and-out event when the light/medium just doesn't feel like turning away from oncoming traffic or gets surprised from around a corner. You know, a nice and easy fix to this could be to just allow torsos and arms to pitch down farther instead of adding a mechanic that everyone will abuse the crap out of...



I enjoy fighting lights more than any other weight class because they are by far the easiest to kill. Larger mechs can core out a Cat pretty easily with all of the dakka they pack (AC/40, 4 ERPPC, etc.), but Spiders and Jenners (the lights I see most often) are simply unable to pose a threat unless I'm severely wounded ahead of time or they surprise me from behind--something which a certain new module makes more difficult on them...

Edited by FupDup, 11 June 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Sarsin]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 June 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

What game are you playing? A good light pilot is rarely in the firing arc of something large enough to seriously hurt it with an alpha strike long enough to land said strike. If they can't keep out of your arc, they just move is and hump your leg, so close you can't bring your guns to bear, and can't get away because they're both faster and more maneuverable. They can just keep firing banks of Med Lasers into the wall of metal in front of them, but you can't even see them, and couldn't angle your guns enough to shoot them if you could see them.

If you are in a position by yourself where I can do that in my Jenner, you killed yourself. I just carried the lasers for a while.