1263 replies to this topic

[Arclight]

Good initiative, but seems a little convoluted. A lot of new players might end up scratching their heads trying to figure out what's going on with the heat system. Looking forward to see how it plays out though.

[Klemvore]

It's too hard for your average gamer to keep track of tonnage, slots, heat, alpha damage, sustained damage, armor, upgrades, modules, etc...

Now you want to add in *special* heat modifiers that will be hard as hell to track in the GUI... new players won't know about unless they read the forums.

I'm thinking maybe more of a common sense mechanic...

Duct tape 3 shotguns together and synchronize the trigger pull and try and take a shot... what happens?

You land on your butt.... that's what happens.

Take 2 shot guns and a .45 cal pistol... tape them together... what happens when you pull the trigger?

You still land on your butt....

Kickback... energy drain... EMP... etc... these are real world logical factors that can be applied via common sense.

Not "6 medium lasers are OK.. but OMG DO NOT ADD #7" is NOT logical...

Ballistics should knock your mech over and take a sec to regain your bearings... vulnerable while on your butt.
kickback meter on build-out screen

energy weaps should drain your battery so hard you shut off and takes a sec to power back up and for all your computers to come back on line... so maybe no cross hairs/targeting computer for a bit when you power up.
power drain on build-out screen

Missiles should leave ash on your cockpit window.
soot meter on build-out screen

Tonnage of mech increases your "capacity" on each of those meters... a 2 PPC raven... probably should shut down.... an AC20 raven... should fall over... ridiculous builds should have penalties.

Sir Issac Newton had a law... for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction... use it.

There was no law about for every action there is a varying reaction dependent upon a sliding scale related to the quantity of the device in question that increases using a steep algorithm and varies upon the specific type of device as well.

[Tombstoner]

Arclight, on 14 June 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Good initiative, but seems a little convoluted. A lot of new players might end up scratching their heads trying to figure out what's going on with the heat system. Looking forward to see how it plays out though.

Its going to confuse them and make them quit sooner. using heat is a bed idea. just for that reason alone.
new player have a hard enough time customizing mechs as it is, overlaying a hidden heat mechanic is FUBAR.

[Weaselball]

No penalty at 3 PPC's? This seems a bit odd to me, as the problems really start at 3 (3ppc gauss highlander, etc)

Paul, I'm calling it right now, if you go through with these changes as-is, you will still see a lot of 3PPC + Gauss builds in the game. 3PPC Gauss Atlases, 3PPC Gauss Miserys, 3PPC Gauss Highlanders, let alone the 2PPC Gauss Phract's.

The high-alpha with PPC meta will not change at all with a 3 PPC soft-cap for heat penalties.

Here's my suggestion on how to get a larger change-up in the Meta, while buffing the Awesome (an assault that needs a buff) in the process. Note: This does not address anything aside from the PPC heat-penalty scale:

Setting PPC's at a base of 2, then adding some penalties at 3+ is what you need to do. Then, additionally, allow the Awesome battlemech to have its PPC limit start at 3. While I doubt this will get people to start jumping ship over to the Awesome (it's still a walking barn) it WILL make people who pilot it feel a little more special.

The Awesome, imo, should be the premier energy / PPC boat. Right now the Stalker outclasses it in this aspect in every possible regard. This change, while not addressing the Awesome's core fault (its girth) will at least make the mech a little better, or at least a little more unique.

TL;DR:

Set the PPC/ER PPC base-cap at 2, scaling higher with the 3rd shot.
Allow the Awesome to fire 3 without penalty, scaling higher with the 3rd PPC / ER PPC.

[stjobe]

Klemvore, on 14 June 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Ballistics should knock your mech over
energy weaps should drain your battery so hard you shut off
Missiles should leave ash on your cockpit window.

'Mechs with those characteristics would never survive the prototype stage.
Consider this:
1. 'Mechs have a sophisticated set of gyros to keep them upright.
2. 'Mechs don't have batteries, they have a fusion reactor.
3. 'Mechs don't actually have cockpit windows

[Deathlike]

jay35, on 14 June 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

HBK-4P as next Champion mech: Purposeful irony or lack of foresight?

Given the new heat penalty will directly affect the 4P's most effective loadout, one wonders if the offering of the 4P as the next Champion mech is an act of purposeful irony or simply the usual lack of foresight.

If the Jenner-F is anything to go by, the Champion HBK-4P will have 6 meds, 3 small. You know... because Hunchbacks need to close up on people with those small lasers.

[Weaselball]

Additionally, Paul, you can change the heat-scale on specific weapons with each individual chassis as needed, via that mech's "quirks." So the Awesome chassis as a whole could have its PPC heat soft-cap start at the 4th ppc (allowing it to fire 3 like normal), or allowing, for example, Stalkers to fire 4 large lasers normally, where as other mechs can only fire 3 before incurring heat penalties, or allowing Catapults to fire 4+ SRM6's (after a buff to SRM's of course) without penalty, where as other mechs can only fire 3 before penalty. Etc etc.

[Catnap]

[DeaconW]

This thread is devolving into this...



Once again, the problem isn't "boating" per se...it is convergence. Fix that and the boating issue will be naturally mitigated.

[keith]

DeaconW, on 14 June 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

This thread is devolving into this...



Once again, the problem isn't "boating" per se...it is convergence. Fix that and the boating issue will be naturally mitigated.

it can be many things beside boating. it can be the massive amount of assault mechs per match. change the convergence. change how much the HS gives to your cap heat. instead u give a whole another though process to think about while playing. PGI balance team is, ya off in space

[arghmace]

Buehgler, on 14 June 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Please keep it simple, the whole idea of counting how many of a particular type of weapon fired in a particular time window seems far too complex and ripe for abuse to me. Keeping track of total heat generated in a time window and penalizing that seems quite clear/simple to me.

Exactly. Not only is it far simpler for everyone to understand, it also makes sense when compared to the real world and it avoids pit traps and abuses bound to come with new mech and weapon releases.

[Cybertek]

Love this much needed change. It will bring a variety to the game play. I like the idea that some versions of mechs should be different limits as they were designed to be fired that way. As some people have mentioned. I like my 4 LL Stalker, and my other boats, that I use but this will make it much more interesting. Also cause people to go to mechs that could withstand a higher number of similar weapons being fired.

[Shumabot]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 June 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Have you?

What does your system do with these stock mechs?
Warhawk (4 Clan ER PPCs): http://www.sarna.net..._%28Masakari%29
Hunchback 4P (8 Medium Lasers): Oh, wait, this is already in the game.
Awesome 9Q (4 PPCs): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Awesome
Devestator (2 PPCs + 2 Gauss Rifles): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Devastator
King Crab (2 AC/20, 1 LRM15, 1 LL): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/King_Crab
Longbow (2 LRM20, 2 LRM5): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longbow
Nova (12 ER Medium laser): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nova
Supernova (6 ER LL): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Supernova
Yeoman (2 LRM15, 2 LRM10): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yeoman
Thunder Hawk (3 Gauss Rifles): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunder_Hawk
Emperor (EMP-6S; 2 LBX-20): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Emperor
Annihilator (4 LBX-10): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Annihilator
Nightstar (2 Gauss Rifles, 1 ER PPC): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nightstar

Do you want to forbid these variants ever to become part of MW:O?

And what about Omnimechs. They're supposed to fully customize their podscape as they see fit. Even if you ignore the OP nature of Clan Tech and nerf them to IS levels (I am all for that), you still have ultimate flexibility, no hard point limitations at all.

Why do we even have to go with a solution that lowers the amount of builds you can make? It's not that 6 PPCs are inherently superior to a mixed long range weapon loadout in the table top. It's only due to convergence and lead times that 6 PPCs are better than, say, 2 AC/10s and 3 Large Lasers.

Christ, you guys do not read posts before you slap your face so hard into your keyboard an awful post comes out of it. At a very fundamental level my solution can't not fix the harmful boating issue because it's implementation is case by case and is totally at the discretion of PGI. The hunchback, being the only mech on that list that's going to be in this game in the next two years, isn't effected by this in the slightest. All my solution would do is prevent it from putting 3 PPC's in its hunch and ridge humping with it (currently the only vaguely viable 4P build by the way, and one that is awful for the metagame (oh, and convergence doesn't effect it (lol))).

The only mechs in that list with a chance of being in this game, (warhawk, king crab, Black hawk, annihilator) don't present a particular issue to the metagame. The first wave of clan mechs won't even include the warhawk and black hawk, and neither is game breaking. Four incredibly low slung PPCs on a clan mech, which by its nature is already shattering game balance in half because it's a clan mech, is hardly going to be overpowered when compared to the octoPPC daishi or other manipulable builds possible without hardpoint sizes. It can't ridge hump, xl safely, and it will be huge. No one cares about med laser boating, the stock black hawk is already dead in the water. The annihilator is tall with low slung arms and cant fit more than t ac20's in a heavy assault, which honestly is quite unimpressive. AC40 mechs need to be fast because they have no long range capability and what makes them devastating is their pinpoint offensive output for their relative weight. The crab has the exact same issues, it'll actually be even worse at it.

As to what happens to omni's, a large omni slot could have large weapons of any type and a small omni slot would have the smalls of any type. Omni mechs are a joke though, you're only ever going to need one variant of each clan mech because without hardpoint sizes or some other differentiating factor they're all going to be totally identical. It's be an entire generation of jagermechs.

Quote

Why can we not look into this more? Why do we have to lower the fun of customization?

Because "customization" in MWO means "how many of a single gun I can fit on this mech". And if that "custom" mech doesn't pass a certain bar it gets sold as vendor trash. That's 90% of this games mechs. Customization is worthless WHEN EVERYONE ALWAYS USES THE SAME DAMN THING.

Edited by Shumabot, 14 June 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Shumabot]

Victor Morson, on 14 June 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I don't know why so many people are opposed to simply slowing 'mechs movement and torso as they approach 100%, so that if a build runs really hot and is coming out of a shutdown, it will be further hampered. It'd be a death sentence for already slow assaults like the Stalker without even having to mess with other stuff.

I also have no problem with the heat threshold.

My sole problem is their attack on alpha strikes, when alpha strikes aren't so much the problem as specific combos of guns being superior because they're mounted on giant 'mechs.

But the bottom line is no matter what you do to this.. if everyone on the field is in an 80+ ton 'mech, playing anything less will never work right (unless you're a scout.)

People are opposed to it because it's an awful idea. The 4 ppc stalker doesn't need to walk fast because it's NOT MOVING. The Jenner F, Hunchback 4P, Every quickdraw, the awesome, and a load of other mechs that require hot running and lots of speed to be even as non viable as they truly are would be destroyed by this.

Why is it that everything you people suggest makes the problem worse? And yet you ***** about my solution, which none of you can even come close to presenting any realistic criticism of.

Edited by Shumabot, 14 June 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[fil5000]

"You people". Good work on criticism there, guy.

[SirLANsalot]

Victor Morson, on 14 June 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

Also do I really need to break out the list of canon variants that boat large energy? Like, oh, the iconic Warhawk or the Awesome we already have? I don't get why people think large energy isn't "supposed" to be boated on some totally oddball reasoning.

Exceptions DO APPLY if you read the whole damn thing. Even I know there are special mechs that DO boat large energy, like the Nova Cat. The "limiter" would be raised on a per stock configuration basis, so yes the AWS9M and 8Q both would have there penalty limit raised to 3 but for PPC's only, and not for Large lasers, so the stock would exist as intended and not be auto penalized. As for changing the mechs, you would be able to place (on the 8Q) 3 large lasers to go with those 3 PPC's, or go with 5 ML and 2 PPC in the arm, customization will still exist. The stacking heat penalty is there so customization doesn't get COMPLETELY out of hand, like it dose now with stalkers.

[El Bandito]

Can't wait to see how the heat penalty will work out in the 18th.

Bring in restricted hardpoints so PPCs are rightfully boated by Awesomes instead of Stalkers. Stalker arms should fit Large Lasers at most.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 June 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Bullseye69]

If they want to fix the boat heat issue easy fix, you shut down you loose 10% of your speed till your heat drops below 45% for 30 seconds, you go over 120%heat 20% speed loose and 1 in 5 chance of ammo explosion, 135% over heat 50% speed loose , engine damage ammo explosion now at 3 in 5 chance. 150% heat your reactor goes critical you get dunce hat for your mech for a week and your dead...
If you get more than 4 dunce caps in a month you get a sticker attached to the butt of your mech that says " Kick Me I am a *****"


Problem solved no one will want to abuse the heat system since they will get laughed at in game.

Ok the dunce caps was a joke but the other things all are in tt battletech and the other mechwarrior games did have reator explosion from over heating at least in the supernova case it did took me a couple of hours to figure out that I was blowing myself up with that chassis.

[ElLocoMarko]

So how will we know that the new arbitrary heat rule is in effect for a build? Will UI 2.0 tell us that the build could violate it? Does Betty tell us in-game?

Eventually this game will leave beta and new players that didn't see the pile of behaviors added one by one are going to be faced with a monstrous learning curve. (Someday "It's a beta" won't be a valid excuse for scattering information all over a set of forums)

[Shumabot]

Bullseye69, on 14 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

If they want to fix the boat heat issue easy fix, you shut down you loose 10% of your speed till your heat drops below 45% for 30 seconds, you go over 120%heat 20% speed loose and 1 in 5 chance of ammo explosion, 135% over heat 50% speed loose , engine damage ammo explosion now at 3 in 5 chance. 150% heat your reactor goes critical you get dunce hat for your mech for a week and your dead...
If you get more than 4 dunce caps in a month you get a sticker attached to the butt of your mech that says " Kick Me I am a *****"


Problem solved no one will want to abuse the heat system since they will get laughed at in game.

Ok the dunce caps was a joke but the other things all are in tt battletech and the other mechwarrior games did have reator explosion from over heating at least in the supernova case it did took me a couple of hours to figure out that I was blowing myself up with that chassis.

Battletechs a dead game with a player population that can fit in a fiat sedan and your suggestion just made the ac40 jagermech the best mech in the game by such a significant degree I think it's playing a guitar on a mountaintop right now.