40 replies to this topic

[Aszot]

Throughout many sites I find people reallly love playing mechwarrior with they joysticks. But I' m little confused. How do You all people manage to do precision turns? You use Joysticks' twist axle for that? Sure using gamepad is a little hard to master- firing weapons marked with ABXYy (with index finger) is tricky byt it gives constant control over turning and throttle.

[As8s]

I've used a Sidewinder Pro most of my MW gaming life since MW1. Never had a problem. Also look to the military fighter jet's. They use flight sticks aka joystick, there is a reason for this. Also I pair my joystick up with a set of rudder pedals

[BadWolf]

Can anyone recommend a good, durable joystick (under $100), thank you. (a quick google-shopping search had no new sidewinder pro's turn up)

[Frostiken]

"Precision" and "joystick" are mutually exclusive terms. For every one person you can find that is a master of the joystick, you'll find a hundred who think they're doing "good enough" but are consistently out-performed by people of equal or lesser skill who are using the mouse to aim. The simple fact is that aiming is a very reactionary skill, meaning you have to constantly work on input from your eyes and evaluate what you're doing in your arm, forcing constant brain updates. This means aiming is less like aiming and more like steering the reticule around, and your mental workload is greatly increased. Arm fatigue can also become a problem, as aiming requires a lot of large arm movements, compared to relatively few with a mouse. Aiming with a mouse is still unbeatable in FPS games, and when it comes down to it, Mechwarrior is an FPS.

If people want to use a joystick to control aim and torso twist, more power to them, they're electing for the 'sim' feel over actually doing what's best for the game. But it suffices to say that if I were to rank in order of control schemes which is the most effective, I'd put it like this, in order of best setup to worst:

1 - Joystick / mouse - joystick for turning and engine control (in off-hand), mouse for aiming.
2 - Mouse / keyboard - keyboard for turning and engine control, mouse for aiming.
3 - Gamepad control - left stick up/down for engine, left/right for turning, right stick for aiming.
4 - Partial HOTAS setup - throttle for engine control, joystick for aiming with twist for turning.
5 - Full HOTAS setup - throttle for engine control, joystick for aiming, pedals for turning.
6 - Simpit setup - similar to full HOTAS, but probably with buttons all over that require hands-off pushing.

Joystick / mouse is a very difficult setup to get used to, but is unquestionably the best, as it combines the precision of a mouse for aiming with the analog inputs of the joystick axis for fine turning and engine control. Proper setup is done by slaving the joystick y-axis (back/forth) to pure throttle input, so your throttle is zero when the stick is neutral, when pushed halfway forward you get 50% throttle, and all the way forward for 100%. This gives you extremely fast throttle control as well as the ability to adjust how fast you're turning, to avoid the problems of a rapid jerk left and right that you get when turning with a keyboard.

Learning curve aside, it works marvelously, with the only real drawback being the danger of arm fatigue by having to hold the throttle. I got around this by assigning a button to 100% throttle so I can go forward without my hand on the stick.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 06:43 AM.

[Pht]

Aszot, on 10 June 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Throughout many sites I find people reallly love playing mechwarrior with they joysticks. But I' m little confused. How do You all people manage to do precision turns? You use Joysticks' twist axle for that? Sure using gamepad is a little hard to master- firing weapons marked with ABXYy (with index finger) is tricky byt it gives constant control over turning and throttle.

...

you lean the stick in the direction you want to go. Rudder/twist function serves to control torso twist... and most sticks have a throttle.

[Kittygrinder]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

"Precision" and "joystick" are mutually exclusive terms. For every one person you can find that is a master of the joystick, you'll find a hundred who think they're doing "good enough" but are consistently out-performed by people of equal or lesser skill who are using the mouse to aim. The simple fact is that aiming is a very reactionary skill, meaning you have to constantly work on input from your eyes and evaluate what you're doing in your arm, forcing constant brain updates. This means aiming is less like aiming and more like steering the reticule around, and your mental workload is greatly increased. Arm fatigue can also become a problem, as aiming requires a lot of large arm movements, compared to relatively few with a mouse. Aiming with a mouse is still unbeatable in FPS games, and when it comes down to it, Mechwarrior is an FPS.

If people want to use a joystick to control aim and torso twist, more power to them, they're electing for the 'sim' feel over actually doing what's best for the game. But it suffices to say that if I were to rank in order of control schemes which is the most effective, I'd put it like this, in order of best setup to worst:

1 - Joystick / mouse - joystick for turning and engine control (in off-hand), mouse for aiming.
2 - Mouse / keyboard - keyboard for turning and engine control, mouse for aiming.
3 - Gamepad control - left stick up/down for engine, left/right for turning, right stick for aiming.
4 - Partial HOTAS setup - throttle for engine control, joystick for aiming with twist for turning.
5 - Full HOTAS setup - throttle for engine control, joystick for aiming, pedals for turning.
6 - Simpit setup - similar to full HOTAS, but probably with buttons all over that require hands-off pushing.

Joystick / mouse is a very difficult setup to get used to, but is unquestionably the best, as it combines the precision of a mouse for aiming with the analog inputs of the joystick axis for fine turning and engine control. Proper setup is done by slaving the joystick y-axis (back/forth) to pure throttle input, so your throttle is zero when the stick is neutral, when pushed halfway forward you get 50% throttle, and all the way forward for 100%. This gives you extremely fast throttle control as well as the ability to adjust how fast you're turning, to avoid the problems of a rapid jerk left and right that you get when turning with a keyboard.

Learning curve aside, it works marvelously, with the only real drawback being the danger of arm fatigue by having to hold the throttle. I got around this by assigning a button to 100% throttle so I can go forward without my hand on the stick.

Im going to disagree with your general point here buddy. First off, MWO is a simulator with an fps point of view. Even with Mech4 you play a lot better, and aim more accurately with a joystick, i experienced this first had a couple weeks ago, going from mouse and keyboard to a joystick. In a true FPS like BF3, mouse and keyboard is the only choice. In a simulator, like Mechwarrior games, Mouse and keyboard works, and youll be better than those on a gamepad, but the Joystick is the best choice for that kind of game play.

[Striker1980]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

"Precision" and "joystick" are mutually exclusive terms. For every one person you can find that is a master of the joystick, you'll find a hundred who think they're doing "good enough" but are consistently out-performed by people of equal or lesser skill who are using the mouse to aim. The simple fact is that aiming is a very reactionary skill, meaning you have to constantly work on input from your eyes and evaluate what you're doing in your arm, forcing constant brain updates. This means aiming is less like aiming and more like steering the reticule around, and your mental workload is greatly increased. Arm fatigue can also become a problem, as aiming requires a lot of large arm movements, compared to relatively few with a mouse. Aiming with a mouse is still unbeatable in FPS games, and when it comes down to it, Mechwarrior is an FPS.

If people want to use a joystick to control aim and torso twist, more power to them, they're electing for the 'sim' feel over actually doing what's best for the game. But it suffices to say that if I were to rank in order of control schemes which is the most effective, I'd put it like this, in order of best setup to worst:

1 - Joystick / mouse - joystick for turning and engine control (in off-hand), mouse for aiming.
2 - Mouse / keyboard - keyboard for turning and engine control, mouse for aiming.
3 - Gamepad control - left stick up/down for engine, left/right for turning, right stick for aiming.
4 - Partial HOTAS setup - throttle for engine control, joystick for aiming with twist for turning.
5 - Full HOTAS setup - throttle for engine control, joystick for aiming, pedals for turning.
6 - Simpit setup - similar to full HOTAS, but probably with buttons all over that require hands-off pushing.

Joystick / mouse is a very difficult setup to get used to, but is unquestionably the best, as it combines the precision of a mouse for aiming with the analog inputs of the joystick axis for fine turning and engine control. Proper setup is done by slaving the joystick y-axis (back/forth) to pure throttle input, so your throttle is zero when the stick is neutral, when pushed halfway forward you get 50% throttle, and all the way forward for 100%. This gives you extremely fast throttle control as well as the ability to adjust how fast you're turning, to avoid the problems of a rapid jerk left and right that you get when turning with a keyboard.

Learning curve aside, it works marvelously, with the only real drawback being the danger of arm fatigue by having to hold the throttle. I got around this by assigning a button to 100% throttle so I can go forward without my hand on the stick.

I think I'd have a nosebleed if I tried to use mouse and Joystick.

I'm from a flight sim/ RC plane background so a joystick offers me a far greater degree of precision than a Mouse anyway from a targetting perspective, personally I'll be using a HOTAS if I can map the Microstick to the rudder function otherwise I'd be using a Standard stick with twist rudder function, I've used this set up the entire time I've played Mechwarrior, I tried Mouse and Keyboard on Mechwarrior living legends and it made me want to throw the mouse through the window.

As an aside, I do play FPS's with a Keyboard and mouse but any form of vehicular control I tend to find works best with a Joystick, rudder and throttle. Especially in a game like Mechwarrior where piloting your 'mech is very input intensive. (torso, arms, linear throttle, jump jets and weapons controls).

Thats a big ask for a Keyboard and mouse.

As an aside why did you list HOTAS as better than Simpit? Surely simpit should be superior simply due to the fact that it is built to be the most intuitive IE with a HOTAS first then secondary controls where they should be?

Edited by Striker1980, 10 June 2012 - 06:52 AM.

[Woodstock]

Keyboard and mouse for me ... maybe use my joystick instead of my mouse though.

I might invest in a gaming mouse with more buttons.

Edited by Woodstock, 10 June 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[Striker1980]

BadWolf, on 10 June 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Can anyone recommend a good, durable joystick (under $100), thank you. (a quick google-shopping search had no new sidewinder pro's turn up)

Try a Thrustmaster T-flight HOTAS X (been hearing good things about this)

or a Saitek Cyborg V1 (I've been using a Cyborg stick for years now to replace my old gameport MS Sidewinder which was past it's best anyway) its a great stick and is adjustable to your grip/ handing too.

Edited by Striker1980, 10 June 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[GrizzlyViking]

Aszot, on 10 June 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Throughout many sites I find people reallly love playing mechwarrior with they joysticks. But I' m little confused. How do You all people manage to do precision turns? You use Joysticks' twist axle for that? Sure using gamepad is a little hard to master- firing weapons marked with ABXYy (with index finger) is tricky byt it gives constant control over turning and throttle.

There is not really a good verbal answer to your question and there is no one controller that is best for every player. The thing to do is to get in the game (when you can) and test things out using your preferred method. You will be able to decide rather quickly if your controller is going to accomplish what you want and/or of it is lacking.

That said, there are some other things you may want to consider. Microsoft created MW4 and their Sidewinder to go together. That MWO and Razer have teamed up for a MWO joystick should be a sign to the community about what they are designing and expect to be best for playing MWO. The Razer Artemis is a joystick, not a super mouse and key or a pad. I would say that is the greatest indicator of what the Devs envision as the best way to play MWO or they would have been working with Razer on one of the others instead of a joystick.

Edited by GrizzlyViking, 10 June 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[TwoFaced]

I was using a sidewinder FF 2 until this week practicing MW4. Alas it blew up.

I am deciding to mouse and keyboard it until we actually see game mechanics and if there is a need.

[Karyudo ds]

Kittygrinder, on 10 June 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

Even with Mech4 you play a lot better, and aim more accurately with a joystick, i experienced this first had a couple weeks ago, going from mouse and keyboard to a joystick.

Funny, I did just fine in MW4 with a mouse. Tried to pick up a stick and could never figure out how to configure it to be comfortable. So I'm pretty sure I didn't play a lot better...or better at all. Not sure I hit anything at all actually.

[Frostiken]

Kittygrinder, on 10 June 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

First off, MWO is a simulator with an fps point of view.

I don't know what that means. First of all, every simulator is first person, otherwise it automatically betrayed the entire concept. Secondly, Mechwarrior is not a simulator. Please stop calling it this. The gameplay is deceptively simple when you get down to it, most of the concepts are incredibly streamlined. I fail to see how Mechwarrior is any more a simulator than Battlefield.

Simulator implies depth, and if you look at it objectively, Mechwarrior games have a tendency to lack depth. Battlefield-style games have medics, ammo, a complex set of balance (ie: how tanks and infantry react to each other), key abilities split across different classes, and all kinds of features to play with. Mechwarrior is, for the most part, not much more than simply shooting the other guy to death before he shoots you to death. But this is all besides the point.

Quote

In a true FPS like BF3, mouse and keyboard is the only choice. In a simulator, like Mechwarrior games, Mouse and keyboard works, and youll be better than those on a gamepad, but the Joystick is the best choice for that kind of game play.

I'm sorry, why do you say that it's "the best"? Aiming is not magically easier, as the actual aiming process (move reticule to enemy, push button, receive bacon) is the same in this, much the same as it is with an M-16, or with an F/A-18 in Battlefield, or a Prowler MBT in Planetside. Your absolute control is much more limited, and it simply requires much more mental work to properly operate. There is no advantage to be gained from any logical standpoint regarding the use of a joystick to aim.

The difference may be that MW4 handled mouse support fairly poorly, it felt like it was tacked on rather than built with it in mind. MWLL, which natively supports the mouse for aiming, gives you a much more fluid feeling and your mouse feels like it's more connected.

MWO is Cryengine and thus will handle the mouse fairly well natively, I doubt it will feel much different from MWLL. Additionally, it looks like arm movement in MWO is more or less unlimited in speed, so aiming around in your main view will confer a serious advantage in speed with a mouse that a joystick will not be capable of, not with any sort of precision.

There is no arguable advantage to be gained from using a joystick to aim. Use of it is down to preference and how you personally feel you "should" pilot a mech, but I will guarantee you if you faced someone of exactly the same skill as you, who was using M/KB while you used full HOTAS, you would lose every time. Full HOTAS requires much more work and mental overhead to operate fully, and you do not get enough of a serious advantage in any way to compensate for that, leaving the joystick setup the inferior choice.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Stryk3r46]

IMO nothing can beat the mouse for aiming... it is by far the most accurate.

[GrizzlyViking]

Karyudo ds, on 10 June 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Funny, I did just fine in MW4 with a mouse. Tried to pick up a stick and could never figure out how to configure it to be comfortable. So I'm pretty sure I didn't play a lot better...or better at all. Not sure I hit anything at all actually.

Some people can't play better with a joystick, but it is not a flaw. It's just a difference.

[Oppi]

Aszot, on 10 June 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Throughout many sites I find people reallly love playing mechwarrior with they joysticks. But I' m little confused. How do You all people manage to do precision turns? You use Joysticks' twist axle for that? Sure using gamepad is a little hard to master- firing weapons marked with ABXYy (with index finger) is tricky byt it gives constant control over turning and throttle.

I just tried playing Wing Commander Saga (play it, it's great ) with my gamepad this week, but I almost instantly decided it was no use. The reason for that was, that there was no way of precise aiming with that small stick on the pad. The difference bewteen the 0 position and the maximum in any direction is far too small to allow small, precise corrections to your crosshair, so some kind of auto aim would be mandatory, which just isn't fun, especially in multiplayer games. You could lower sensibility, but then you'd have a problem with quickly doing larger turns. A larger stick - that'd be a joystick - would solve this problem. (proof : When I still had a working stick, I always used it for Mechwarrior or flight sims and never had such problems)
So I think that gamepads are by far the worst input device for anything that requires aiming, and I'll buy a new stick as soon as MWO comes out.

Edited by Oppi, 10 June 2012 - 07:59 AM.

[XionsFate]

I say joystick reigns supreme!!! i agree with joystick left, mouse right. thats how i've played since MW1. I have played all the mechwarrior games in this setup and wouldnt change it for the world. absolutely button 100% and 0% throttle. yes on torso twist with stick twist. and it does take time to get used to it, but when you do.... its like they just cleaned your windshield and gave you 50% field of vision, you feel like a MechWarrior! chinkchinkchink, ssssswwwwwwiiiiiiiiiieeeeewwwwwww BOOOOOMMMMMM!!! *target eliminated*

[BadWolf]

Striker1980, on 10 June 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Try a Thrustmaster T-flight HOTAS X (been hearing good things about this)

or a Saitek Cyborg V1 (I've been using a Cyborg stick for years now to replace my old gameport MS Sidewinder which was past it's best anyway) its a great stick and is adjustable to your grip/ handing too.

Oh man the thrustmaster http://www.newegg.co...N82E16879337003 looks sweet..and only $50. I will definitely have my eyes on it, but it will be pointless for me getting before MWO since I dont play any other game that can use a joystick.

Thanks for pointing it out though.

[CrimsonOdyssey]

The main reason I'm going to buy a joystick is because of turning issues involved with a mouse in this game. There are multiple levels of turn control (torso and legs rather than just left and right) that a mouse and keyboard won't be able to capitalize on effectively, at least not as well as a keyboard and joystick/joystick and mouse.

With a mouse you can only move it so far (left or right, up or down) on your mouse pad. With a joystick, aiming like this is eliminated because there is no limit to how far you can turn. you no longer need to pick up your mouse to bring it back to the center of the pad (which can waste a second or so of aim time). A joystick is far more fluid in terms of movement and can be far more precise for in-depth aiming, such as sniping or targeting specific points on a mech. The mouse however will give you far better results for twitch aiming, which is needed in many fps's like battlefield or call of duty. That being said someone with experience on a joystick and having the right sensitivity will more often than not be a far more precise shooter than someone with a mouse. In a game like mechwarrior where precision can mean a kill in 10 seconds or less (if you hit the right spots on an enemy) consistent precision is often more important than twitch aiming.

[Striker1980]

BadWolf, on 10 June 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Oh man the thrustmaster http://www.newegg.co...N82E16879337003 looks sweet..and only $50. I will definitely have my eyes on it, but it will be pointless for me getting before MWO since I dont play any other game that can use a joystick.

Thanks for pointing it out though.

No problem, hope you enjoy it if you get one.

Its funny that it's so reasonably priced though, a few years back I was looking for a cheap flightstick and throttle and the Cyborg was pretty much my only choice for less than £60 (~£100) Decent controllers seem to be making a comeback, the fact that you can get a HOTAS for the same price as a game is really awesome.

Avias, on 10 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

The main reason I'm going to buy a joystick is because of turning issues involved with a mouse in this game. There are multiple levels of turn control (torso and legs rather than just left and right) that a mouse and keyboard won't be able to capitalize on effectively, at least not as well as a keyboard and joystick/joystick and mouse.

With a mouse you can only move it so far (left or right, up or down) on your mouse pad. With a joystick, aiming like this is eliminated because there is no limit to how far you can turn. you no longer need to pick up your mouse to bring it back to the center of the pad (which can waste a second or so of aim time). A joystick is far more fluid in terms of movement and can be far more precise for in-depth aiming, such as sniping or targeting specific points on a mech. The mouse however will give you far better results for twitch aiming, which is needed in many fps's like battlefield or call of duty. That being said someone with experience on a joystick and having the right sensitivity will more often than not be a far more precise shooter than someone with a mouse. In a game like mechwarrior where precision can mean a kill in 10 seconds or less (if you hit the right spots on an enemy) consistent precision is often more important than twitch aiming.

That's true actually, the constant picking up and slapping down of my mouse was actually what made me swear never to use one in a Sim style game ever again.