176 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

scJazz, on 12 June 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

They can't... and so far I've resisted the urge to use them. Still there is no way possible for them to keep anyone from using keyboard macros. None. Which is my point, people can and will use them adding the 0.51 sec delay between shots. Anyone not using them... people who aren't Computer Savvy, New Players, etc won't be using them and will pay a heavy price.

Any solution to a game balancing problem which can be defeated with a few minutes of effort using your Mouse/Keyboard Built-In Macro Software or by downloading free Macro Software is totally and utterly doomed to failure.

In 0.5 seconds just how much can Angle of Attack change can an Elite Atlas (some other mech) generate? Anyone happen to know already? A quick google gave me the average human reaction time of 0.215 seconds or more than 40% of the 0.5 second delay. So really my question should be in 0.3 seconds how much AoA change can there be? Is it enough to overcome reaction speed? Does it really influence hard shots like shooter moving left/target moving visual right?

BANG... 0.2 seconds I've been shot... I MOVING/TWISTING/TURNING... 0.3 seconds... BANG... I'm still CT Cored and dead

Seriously it is just a plain BAD solution.

How are these folks getting around the Cool-Down again?

[MaddMaxx]

CancR, on 12 June 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

They need to bring back death by over heating. When there that fear of insta dying from overheating to many times no one ran a too hot build for very long.

Tell that to the poor ****** who just started in MWO and is not yet gotten a grasp of his current build and or its heat idiosyncrasies. Talk about chasing off potential clients...

[MaddMaxx]

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Cone of fire in any shape or form adds nothing to the gameplay, it only add luck to it all. MWO is supposed to reward you not only for hitting a mech but for being able to hit specific mech parts to be most effective. And in all this we're going to put in a random generator is just counterproductive to the gameplay. It'll just end up with everyone aiming center mass and takes away the reward of not aiming center mass since you'll run a much higher risk of missing totally. It might not matter as much in other FPS where an assault rifle has 30+ ammo to spray, reload and spray again. But firing off weapons that take several seconds to "reload" and have them randomly hit or miss? Terrible idea.

The crazy thing is that if such a mechanic were implemented, those say folks who so fervently wanted it would e the first to realize the folly of it and clamor to have it removed. Seen that happen so many times it is not even funny.

"Give me another second Sarge, I got that XL torso in my sites, he is going down... Boom! WTH! Left leg damage applied. BOOM! He just head shot me? Really!..WTH!"

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 June 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Kaldor]

Galenit, on 13 June 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Thats the problem, as stated above....

We have 2 times the tt armor, but we have 2,5 to 20 times the damage and pinpoint accuracy.
Just upping the armor isnt a solution because of different damage increases for the weapons.

Giving heatsinks a heatcapacity increase is the main problem i see.

Thats is why the heat cap needs to be lowered. We agree on that. But to compensate, heat dissipation needs to go up. This will result in nerfing high heat high damage weapon boating and alpha striking of said weapons. Long range weapons like PPCs will not die, but people will not be firing 4 at a time. They will have to fire 2, wait, fire 2, to keep heat under control. Depending on the build this could result in them just running 2 PPCs instead of 4, and running some other weapons in conjunction.

[MaddMaxx]

Roland, on 12 June 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Not sure if trolling.

Believe it or not, video games actually do involve skill. There are many players who will consistently beat you, not because they are simply lucky, but because they are better at the game than you.

And will you explain to the class how "convergence" or "the lack of" changes any of that? Please...

[Cypher Seven]

If the goal is to prevent alpha strike like builds, then instead of approaching from a heat standpoint. how about approaching from a damage to the offender standpoint.

so a player decides to make some alpha strike build like 9ML. every time that player fires such a build, they take 10, 20, 30% damage to their own chassis. (as in firing all 9 at once)

this heat solution is already gamed by players using autofire. that will completely get around the .5 second heat penalty as I read it.

[MustrumRidcully]

MaddMaxx, on 13 June 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Tell that to the poor ****** who just started in MWO and is not yet gotten a grasp of his current build and or its heat idiosyncrasies. Talk about chasing off potential clients...

To explode on overheating, you needed to do something crazy like boating 8 ER Large Lasers or 6 ER PPCs in MW3. There aren't any stock mechs that do that currently, and the ones that come with stock configs like that I believe are all Clan mechs - probably not noob material either.

Just make sure that it's unlikely to have a noob on a mech that overheats to explode on the first shot, and that you need heat override to get in explosion heat regions. (Note: To get there. You should still explode even if you shut down then, but if you overrode to give you some extra shot at shut down levels, screw you. The noob will first have to learn about override shutdown, however, and then he'll learn how dangerous it is. He will not go into it just by pressing the fire button on his mech.)

Cypher Seven, on 13 June 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

This heat solution is already gamed by players using autofire. that will completely get around the .5 second heat penalty as I read it.

The goal is not to make people explode all the time or something like that if they equip 6 PPCs - the goal is to stop people from delivering massive pinpoint damage. Two 30 damage shots are not massive pinpoint damage, unless you're a superior shot. So if someone macros or chain-fires to avoid the penalty - MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

[Tombstoner]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 June 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

The goal is not to make people explode all the time or something like that if they equip 6 PPCs - the goal is to stop people from delivering massive pinpoint damage. Two 30 damage shots are not massive pinpoint damage, unless you're a superior shot. So if someone macros or chain-fires to avoid the penalty - MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Except that you punish lights and mediums that rely on the ML and in the future ERML boats. with IS tech i need 6 ML for one 30 point alpha vs. 2x gause.... why is my cicada or death knell nerfed for really no good reason.

This goes way back to why the ac-20 is nerfed in comparison to the ac-20.... pin point accuracy. This change only address single weapon type alphas. the oposit choice could be made in by giving lower heat generation bonus for single fired weapons. thus you can fire single fire weapons more often. the heat penalty is intended to lower damage output delivered to a single point. 1 60 vs 2x 30 point alphas if not much of a change when all you have on your ct is 40 points.

The game needs X weapon alphas hitting X random locations for long range/sniping, not this half measure hoping that a .5 second delay will change anything. your still gonna eat 30 point alphas.

[PropagandaWar]

While it’s cool that they are taking strides this seems like an exploitable solution. Instead they should take a page out of TT where it regards heat and the effects it has on a mech. Albeit not mimicking it entirely as this is a completely different animal.

Once a mech starts hitting a certain percentage stuff should start happening such as:
*At 85% heat crosshairs start to blur and cockpit gets fuzzy. Getting hot in that mech.
*At 95% heat Electonics is acting wonky Weapon convergance cease to exist starts acting normal again when it drops back to 50
*At 85% heat Mech Slows down movement by 20% (including Torso). The mynomer is getting sticky and electrical currents are not getting from point a to point be quick enough.
*At 80% heat Weapon recycle time slows down by 10%, at 90% heat recycle time takes 30% longer.
*At 95% 2% chance of heat sink malfunctioning
When shutdown takes place or override more drastic things occur.
Shutdown have a 5 percent chance to blow a heat sink or slow movement down by x percent and /orweapon recycle time.
On Overides or heat threshold over 125% there should be a 25% chance to lose multiple heatsinks, blow engine, Have weapons malfunction and possibly fuse Torso.

[Cypher Seven]

ignore my entire previous thread. What PropagandaWar said. ^^

[MaddMaxx]

PropagandaWar, on 13 June 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

While it’s cool that they are taking strides this seems like an exploitable solution. Instead they should take a page out of TT where it regards heat and the effects it has on a mech. Albeit not mimicking it entirely as this is a completely different animal.

Once a mech starts hitting a certain percentage stuff should start happening such as:
*At 85% heat crosshairs start to blur and cockpit gets fuzzy. Getting hot in that mech.
*At 95% heat Electonics is acting wonky Weapon convergance cease to exist starts acting normal again when it drops back to 50
*At 85% heat Mech Slows down movement by 20% (including Torso). The mynomer is getting sticky and electrical currents are not getting from point a to point be quick enough.
*At 80% heat Weapon recycle time slows down by 10%, at 90% heat recycle time takes 30% longer.
*At 95% 2% chance of heat sink malfunctioning
When shutdown takes place or override more drastic things occur.
Shutdown have a 5 percent chance to blow a heat sink or slow movement down by x percent and /orweapon recycle time.
On Overides or heat threshold over 125% there should be a 25% chance to lose multiple heatsinks, blow engine, Have weapons malfunction and possibly fuse Torso.

Debilitating a Mech and or the Pilots ability to use it main systems, Weapons and Engine (speed) is a terrible idea. What the hell would the point be of having certain load-outs if you cannot make optimal use of them. Absolutely none.

I am also a staunch believer in that HEAT is King. But it also has to happen after 101% is reached, not before.

At 90% of the 100% max a pilot eats a 30% recycle penalty? Really. Why not just remove 50% of his guns before he hits the field? If delayed fire of groups of weapons is the ultimate change required, then killing game play for its sake is a poor road to travel imho.

I want to drive a BattleMech. Not some gimped piece of **** because I pushed the Heat to 85% of its allowed maximum, for 3 seconds, ffs.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 June 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Skyfaller]

PropagandaWar, on 13 June 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

While it’s cool that they are taking strides this seems like an exploitable solution. Instead they should take a page out of TT where it regards heat and the effects it has on a mech. Albeit not mimicking it entirely as this is a completely different animal.

Once a mech starts hitting a certain percentage stuff should start happening such as:
*At 85% heat crosshairs start to blur and cockpit gets fuzzy. Getting hot in that mech.
*At 95% heat Electonics is acting wonky Weapon convergance cease to exist starts acting normal again when it drops back to 50
*At 85% heat Mech Slows down movement by 20% (including Torso). The mynomer is getting sticky and electrical currents are not getting from point a to point be quick enough.
*At 80% heat Weapon recycle time slows down by 10%, at 90% heat recycle time takes 30% longer.
*At 95% 2% chance of heat sink malfunctioning
When shutdown takes place or override more drastic things occur.
Shutdown have a 5 percent chance to blow a heat sink or slow movement down by x percent and /orweapon recycle time.
On Overides or heat threshold over 125% there should be a 25% chance to lose multiple heatsinks, blow engine, Have weapons malfunction and possibly fuse Torso.

This still does not address alpha pinpoint boated weapon damage (which IS the problem). Even if six ppcs puts a stalker in 95% heat it will still fire that 60 damage pinpoint alpha, completely mess up whoever it hits and the cooldown would be no different than the current wait time to cool off for another 60pnter.

[Kaldor]

PropagandaWar, on 13 June 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

While it’s cool that they are taking strides this seems like an exploitable solution. Instead they should take a page out of TT where it regards heat and the effects it has on a mech. Albeit not mimicking it entirely as this is a completely different animal.

Once a mech starts hitting a certain percentage stuff should start happening such as:
*At 85% heat crosshairs start to blur and cockpit gets fuzzy. Getting hot in that mech.
*At 95% heat Electonics is acting wonky Weapon convergance cease to exist starts acting normal again when it drops back to 50
*At 85% heat Mech Slows down movement by 20% (including Torso). The mynomer is getting sticky and electrical currents are not getting from point a to point be quick enough.
*At 80% heat Weapon recycle time slows down by 10%, at 90% heat recycle time takes 30% longer.
*At 95% 2% chance of heat sink malfunctioning
When shutdown takes place or override more drastic things occur.
Shutdown have a 5 percent chance to blow a heat sink or slow movement down by x percent and /orweapon recycle time.
On Overides or heat threshold over 125% there should be a 25% chance to lose multiple heatsinks, blow engine, Have weapons malfunction and possibly fuse Torso.

I like the idea of it, but as MaddMaxx said, its too brutal. Start those penalties at 100% heat, and it looks great.

[PropagandaWar]

MaddMaxx, on 13 June 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Debilitating a Mech and or the Pilots ability to use it main systems, Weapons and Engine (speed) is a terrible idea. What the hell would the point be of having certain load-outs if you cannot make optimal use of them. Absolutely none.

I am also a staunch believer in the HEAT regime as King, but it all has to happen after 101%.

At 90% of the 100% max a pilot eats a 30% recycle penalty? Really. Why not just remove 50% of his guns before he hits the field? If delayed fire of groups of weapons is the ultimate change required, then killing game play for its sake is a poor road to travel imho.

I want to drive a BattleMech. Not some gimped piece of **** because I pushed the Heat to 85% of it allowed maximum for 3 seconds ffs.

Oh you want a "Arcade Game". Go check Hawken out www.hawkensucks.com . When my PC gets got my framerates drop and my PC acts funny as hell. When my engine gets hot my engine starts to act funny it doesn't shut dow. . Anything less than a 100% isn't permanent and I'm not saying throw them all in. You want to run that high alpha stalker that my Hunchback with a 1.47 heat efficency takes out 90% of the time anyway because its a one trick pony go for it. This model at least wouln't only effect certain mechs but all mechs.

Also the percentages are place holders it could be as low as 2% for recycle rate.

Skyfaller, on 13 June 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

This still does not address alpha pinpoint boated weapon damage (which IS the problem). Even if six ppcs puts a stalker in 95% heat it will still fire that 60 damage pinpoint alpha, completely mess up whoever it hits and the cooldown would be no different than the current wait time to cool off for another 60pnter.

yeah but that stalker will only get that one shot before stuff starts to act wonky.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 13 June 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

PropagandaWar, on 13 June 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Oh you want a "Arcade Game". Go check Hawken out www.hawkensucks.com . When my PC gets got my framerates drop and my PC acts funny as hell. When my engine gets hot my engine starts to act funny it doesn't shut dow. . Anything less than a 100% isn't permanent and I'm not saying throw them all in. You want to run that high alpha stalker that my Hunchback with a 1.47 heat efficency takes out 90% of the time anyway because its a one trick pony go for it. This model at least wouln't only effect certain mechs but all mechs.

Also the percentages are place holders it could be as low as 2% for recycle rate.


yeah but that stalker will only get that one shot before stuff starts to act wonky.

Placeholders aside. You are debilitating the Mech before it can fulfill its full potential. That Stalker also has a 1.47 heat efficiency btw.

Look at your cars Thermometer. Check the value it runs at under ideal conditions, then see how much further the gauge goes before getting flagged as RED. Same for a BattleMech.

[PropagandaWar]

MaddMaxx, on 13 June 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Placeholders aside. You are debilitating the Mech before it can fulfill its full potential. That Stalker also has a 1.47 heat efficiency btw.

Look at your cars Thermometer. Check the value it runs at under ideal conditions, then see how much further the gauge goes before getting flagged as RED. Same for a BattleMech.

Ok while I dont' do it normally I'm taking some of this off the TT heat standards. But lets add this into it. Make effects happen if your running over 75% heat over x-amount of time. I overheat when I'm stupid at 1.47 but I really have to be going at it for a while to do so. Personally I think convergence, movement and recycle time should be the big ones if any.

[soarra]

Svalfangr, on 12 June 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

So all they need to do is make it so you cant use macros.

They are nothing but exploits anyway.

will never happen with all these gaming mice and keyboard having macro programs

[Skyfaller]

PropagandaWar, on 13 June 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

yeah but that stalker will only get that one shot before stuff starts to act wonky.

You're missing the point. The 60 dmg salvo gets fired. The cooldown time is the same as now (basically cool off until the heat drops under 30% before you can fire another one). Its irrelevant if the mech starts to act wonky. Alpha pinpoint damage boat builds wont be affected too much by their mechs acting wonky. Only brawlers running hot would. Such heat wonkyness would just push people into focusing on long range pinpoint damage alphaboated builds.

The pinpoint damage is the #1 problem. It has to be tackled in a way that is effective before the person even fires the weapon. just like JJ shake didn't change the poptart sniping very much... now they just jet up, release the jet, aim and shoot on the way down. All the change did was cause a 1 to 2 second delay inconvenience to poptarts.

The way to fix it is to first tackle the pinpoint damage capability BEFORE the weapon is fired so as prevent boating weapons to front-load massive damage in one spot...and then tackle the heat management so that AFTER the weapon is fired there is no means to sustain 2~4 such pinpoint boated alpha strikes before overheat.

[MaddMaxx]

PropagandaWar, on 13 June 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Ok while I dont' do it normally I'm taking some of this off the TT heat standards. But lets add this into it. Make effects happen if your running over 75% heat over x-amount of time. I overheat when I'm stupid at 1.47 but I really have to be going at it for a while to do so. Personally I think convergence, movement and recycle time should be the big ones if any.

That is doable, all that is needed is a time-frame agreement, in triplicate.

[Tahribator]

I will quit this game the day they take away the skill from aiming. Ridiculous suggestions.