176 replies to this topic

[Galenit]

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I have read it

And why do you say the following?

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I have to stand still as a statue with my medium mech just to be able to fire a single AC accurately even mid-range.

No you have not to stand still,
the system i want depends on speed and enemyspeed, range and convergence.
It should nearly be impossible to hit a enemy head with all 4 weapons at 1000m when you go full speed, the shots should hit if you aim right, but go over the whole mech. If you slow down, take time to aim, you have your 6ppc (3ppc+gauss) pinpoint damage back.

Uoke, on 12 June 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

First, for those who are saying that our current boating problems come from high alpha damage and pinpoint accuracy, I don't really believe this is true.

Whacha think?

Its a mix of some problems that sum up:

-We have pinpoint damage and no random hitlocations, like tt.
-We have up to 20 times the damage of tt.
-We have double the heatcap of tt.
-We have no heat penaltys.
-We have only 2x armor

In tt a 4ppc mech will shut down after one alpha and taking some heatpenaltys, the damage will be 10 to 4 locations.
In mwo the same mech can fire 2,5 alphas in the same time without any penaltys or shutdown all hitting the same spot for 40 damage against only 2x armor.

If a mech have 100 centertorsofrontarmor how many alphas with the 4ppc mech do you need to remove it?
In tt you need around 7 alphas to do it. (100 to the center, 180 spread over the other parts)
In mwo you need 2,5 alphas to do it. (100 to centertorso)

Just upping the armor will do nothing because of the different damage increase (2,5 to 20 times the damage of tt) of the weapons. Reducing the heap cap will do a lot. Only arm convergence and fixed torsoweapons will do a lot too, but thats maybe to much for the most players. Heatincrease for boating screams for macro-exploiting ...

Edited by Galenit, 12 June 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[armyof1]

Galenit, on 12 June 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

And why do you say the following?


No you have not to stand still,
the system i want depends on speed and enemyspeed, range and convergence.
It should nearly be impossible to hit a enemy head with all 4 weapons at 1000m when you go full speed, the shots should hit if you aim right, but go over the whole mech. If you slow down, take time to aim, you have your 6ppc (3ppc+gauss) pinpoint damage back.

Just as it will be nearly impossible to hit the enemy's cockpit with a single PPC or AC10 even with perfect aim with the convergence cone you're talking about. Whenever have we ever needed that kind of functionality added to this game? And of course you'll miss more with a cone of fire while you're moving, because when you aim for that left leg then suddenly you have a huge risk of missing to the side. It's silly and dumbs down the game to always fire centre torso, it does not add strategy or need to think. It just adds dumb luck.

Edited by armyof1, 12 June 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Victor Morson]

I might have different views on some parts of your idea OP, but yeah, the more people screaming about this idea the better. It's just terrible.

[Lyoto Machida]

Kaldor, on 12 June 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Fair enough. But adding randomness to a game that is basically an FPS is not the answer. Whether you care to admit it or not, there is some skill involved in firing while moving at a target that is moving and being able to hit it where you want. At that point you have to look at solutions that are simple but effective. Forcing people to alpha less via lower heat caps, but giving them the ability to shoot more via higher dissipation is likely the best answer.

Other games have a cone of fire and the players in those games move much faster. Is it that hard to hit a moving target (aside from lights) at range necessarily?

[Galenit]

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Just as it will be nearly impossible to hit the enemy's cockpit with a single PPC or AC10 even with perfect aim with the convergence cone you're talking about. Whenever have we ever needed that kind of functionality added to this game? And of course you'll miss more with a cone of fire while you're moving, because when you aim for that left leg then suddenly you have a huge risk of missing to the side. It's silly and dumbs down the game to always fire centre torso, it does not add strategy or need to think. It just adds dumb luck.

If you hold the cone over the enemy it shrinks, if you go near to him it shrinks, if you slow down it shrinks, ....
No luck, just more skill. You need to hold your aim longer on the moving target, you have to consider of firing at the moment and not hit the wished location or wait a moment to hit the aimed part.
It reduces the simple point and click mechanic a trained ape or aimbot can do ....

Should i explain it with apples and peaches for you?

[Fate 6]

I would agree with you except they stated at some point that the heat penalty will vary depending on the weapon. I still don't think it's the right solution though. It fixes multiples of weapons, but it doesn't fix the OP chassis (STALKER COUGH COUGH). The AWS doesn't need nerfs to PPCs, because the AWS is balanced or UP.

[armyof1]

Galenit, on 12 June 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

If you hold the cone over the enemy it shrinks, if you go near to him it shrinks, if you slow down it shrinks, ....
No luck, just more skill. You need to hold your aim longer on the moving target, you have to consider of firing at the moment and not hit the wished location or wait a moment to hit the aimed part.
It reduces the simple point and click mechanic a trained ape or aimbot can do ....

Should i explain it with apples and peaches for you?

So explain to me how you'll keep holding your aim at the opponent while you need to lead you shot? And you're basically turning every weapon into a laser as you need to hold the opponent in target for a prolonged duration. Might as well have only lasers as ballistics are working in the same way too.

Edited by armyof1, 12 June 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[Galenit]

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

So explain to me how you'll keep holding your aim at the opponent while you need to lead you shot? And you're basically turning every weapon into a laser as you need to hold the opponent in target for a prolonged duration. Might as well have only lasers as ballistics are working in the same way too.

Thats the problem.
In this post you find some of the points that lead to the situation we have: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2446487

Maybe you should try to be constructive and participate in the finding of a solution?

Edit:
Simple solution: If you have a convergence (cone shrinked to normal crosshair) is stays for 0,5(?) seconds, this way you can lead.

Edited by Galenit, 12 June 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Heat sink changes, intriguing.
Converging arms vs non-converging torso. Heck no. Why? Instantly makes mech variants with more arm mounted weapons OP, while nerfing mechs with more weapons mounted in the torso. The re-balancing of pretty much EVERY MECH IN THE GAME would be horrendous.

Alpha strike: splashes damage everywhere.
Chain fire: pinpoint accuracy.

Done.

Edited by Jonathan Paine, 12 June 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[armyof1]

Galenit, on 12 June 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Thats the problem.
In this post you find some of the points that lead to the situation we have: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2446487

Maybe you should try to be constructive and participate in the finding of a solution?

Well I've already said I think cone of fire is a bad idea. The heat penalty system the devs are thinking about would be a lot better than turning every weapon into a tracing one like lasers.

[Galenit]

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Well I've already said I think cone of fire is a bad idea. The heat penalty system the devs are thinking about would be a lot better than turning every weapon into a tracing one like lasers.

My edit on the last post come to late, i repeat it as answer:

Simple solution: If you have a convergence (cone shrinked to normal crosshair) is stays for 0,5(?) seconds, this way you can lead.

Edited by Galenit, 12 June 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Sharg]

I whole heartedly support item #1. I love the idea of choosing between more slots and a higher heat capacity vs fewer slots and higher dissipation. Although I would change the max heat capacity increase from the SHS to more like 1.5 rather than 2.0. People would just boat single heat sinks and 4 PPCs, and still not have problems.

Item #2 I don't think really needs any attention unless item #1 doesn't work.

Paul, can we pretty pretty please try item #1 on the public test server before trying the weapon heat scale you suggested?

Edited by Sharg, 12 June 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[armyof1]

Galenit, on 12 June 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

My edit on the last post come to late, i repeat it as answer:

Simple solution: If you have a convergence (cone shrinked to normal crosshair) is stays for 0,5(?) seconds, this way you can lead.

Still makes every single weapon into a laser though, that would turn old really quick with the same kind of mechanics when using any direct fire weapon. AC? Trace like with a laser. PPC? Trace like a laser. And good luck trying to make your aim converge against a JJ Spider.

Edited by armyof1, 12 June 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[stjobe]

There's another solution to the pin-point issue that doesn't muck about with convergence or introduce cones of fire: Simply make ballistics fire in bursts of about 1 second (e.g. the AC/20 would fire 4 shots of 5 damage each at 0.25s intervals, then cool down/reload as usual).

That would completely eliminate the current pin-point problem, and as an additional benefit it would reward skill in aiming as the better your aim is, the more you can focus damage. It'd also make energy and ballistic weapons work the same and require the same skill.

The heat problem, from my perspective, can only be solved by drastically lowering heat capacity and equally drastically raise heat dissipation; this would curtail high-heat boating in a very effective way.

Also, I propose redesigning the PPC/ERPPC to be the beam weapon it's supposed to be, not a faux-ballistic.

Edited by stjobe, 12 June 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

I have been calling for these changes for a looong time now.

The heat one seems really easy to implement and would give some reason to use SHS. I have made many posts about this. The actual numbers used can change based on gameplay testing of course but the concept that they do diffeent things to the heat scale so you get a different effect is a way you can keep upgrades from being no brainers but give you MEANINGGUL choices in the mechlab and the battlefield.

Cone of fire ... jeez the crying about this. People seem to think it would be this massive cone that would make you miss every second shot.

1. The cone could be quite small even when running and overheating. That would be enough to spread the damage slightly essepcially at longer range.
2. The skill when it comes to CoF is positioning your mech. Knowing when to slow, when to hold your shot, when to chin fire and when to alpha. YOU control how accurate your cone is by your piloting SKILL. Yes skill, funny word that.
3. Modifiers to the cone could be minimised by holding your shots and letting your targeting systems bring the cone to a minimal level as well as controling moveemnt and heat etc. Snipers would probably wait a bit before they fire to gain max efficieny while spray and pray players will output more damage thogh it might be spread a lot more. In a brawl at very close range the cone would make little difference in fact - and a weapon like the LBX as a snap shot would have some more use.

I do not care if they do or do not add CoF - i doubt they will in fact - but the murderous rage at the idea of it being 'luck' based baffles me.

If they cannot change pinpoint convergeance then they need to at least look at the heat system as a halfway point and the current idea they have is not really going to work ...

[Skyfaller]

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

So explain to me how you'll keep holding your aim at the opponent while you need to lead you shot? And you're basically turning every weapon into a laser as you need to hold the opponent in target for a prolonged duration. Might as well have only lasers as ballistics are working in the same way too.

Again, WOT uses it and people have no problem taking lead shots while on the move. The chance to hit on a desired area or hit at all is reduced however. Closing in on the target increases the hit chance while moving so you dont need to lead so much and the weapon will very likely hit.

What I find hilarious is all the whining about the cone convergence system when again, the proposal is that only ARM weapons can converge while torso weapons shoot straight (no convergence).

A stalker for example, would only converge the arm weapons while the torso mounted weapons fire straight ahead.

Heck if its so hard to wrap the arm convergence around your mind just simplify it even further: make the arm weapons converge at the distance of the currently locked target. Voila. No more leading convergence problems (which is a ******* joke since now the weapons insta-converge on the aimpoint range...and if you're leading a target that means the aimpoint is not over the target but likely aiming and converging at something 1km behind it).

My proposal fixes 3 things:

Alpha pinpoint boating
lack of chassis uniqueness..aka arm weapon mechs have an advantage.
lack of purpose for single heatsinks over dual heatsinks.


You're welcome.

[TexAce]

dont like the dispersion cone but hell they should let the torso weapons shoot only straight forward.

NOBODY can tell me ONE good reason not to do it this way.

Edited by TexAss, 12 June 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

TexAss, on 12 June 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

dont like the dispersion cone but hell they should let the torso weapons shoot only straight forward.

NOBODY can tell me ONE good reason not to do it this way.

Evil Space Magic stops them

[armyof1]

Skyfaller, on 12 June 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Again, WOT uses it and people have no problem taking lead shots while on the move. The chance to hit on a desired area or hit at all is reduced however. Closing in on the target increases the hit chance while moving so you dont need to lead so much and the weapon will very likely hit.

What I find hilarious is all the whining about the cone convergence system when again, the proposal is that only ARM weapons can converge while torso weapons shoot straight (no convergence).

A stalker for example, would only converge the arm weapons while the torso mounted weapons fire straight ahead.

Heck if its so hard to wrap the arm convergence around your mind just simplify it even further: make the arm weapons converge at the distance of the currently locked target. Voila. No more leading convergence problems (which is a ******* joke since now the weapons insta-converge on the aimpoint range...and if you're leading a target that means the aimpoint is not over the target but likely aiming and converging at something 1km behind it).

My proposal fixes 3 things:

Alpha pinpoint boating
lack of chassis uniqueness..aka arm weapon mechs have an advantage.
lack of purpose for single heatsinks over dual heatsinks.


You're welcome.

You've still not explained why it would be a good idea to force this convergence cone even when you're firing a single weapon. So shooting a single AC10 I would suddenly need to try and keep my aim on a JJ Spider running all over the place to have a decent chance to hit. And then I have to lead it and fire. This does not fix boating and alpha, this makes any weapons used at range to be bad. It's just a general nerf of all kind of mid- to long-range shooting. This just make anything but lasers gimped since you can immediately adjust if the laser is fired a bit to the side. Or are lasers supposed to wobble about inside this cone too when fired?

Edited by armyof1, 12 June 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

You've still not explained why it would be a good idea to force this convergence cone even when you're firing a single weapon. So shooting a single AC10 I would suddenly need to try and keep my aim on a JJ Spider running all over the place to have a decent chance to hit. And then I have to lead it and fire. This does not fix boating and alpha, this makes any weapons used at range to be bad. It's just a general nerf of all kind of mid- to long-range shooting. This just make anything but lasers gimped since you can immediately adjust if the laser is fired a bit to the side. Or are lasers supposed to wobble about inside this cone too when fired?

The more you group weapons, the wider the cone might get making group firing a risk reward situation compared to firing single shots.

Lasers might wobble about a bit yes but as I said in my previous post the cone does not need to be large so it wouldnt look too silly.

Also this would require a massive change to the weapons, some weapons would be better than others in this system and the balance of heat, damage etc might need to change drastically in some cases to fit a new paradigm. You cannot use the values we have now as an argument - but you can use the mechanics of firing as an argument.