176 replies to this topic

[Galenit]

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Cone of fire in any shape or form adds nothing to the gameplay, it only add luck to it all. MWO is supposed to reward you not only for hitting a mech but for being able to hit specific mech parts to be most effective.

Read again,
you can do that it with the cone/convergence thing too,
but no instant point and click anymore,
you have to wait a short time that your weapons need to adjust.

It rises the skill that is needed to do sniping and pinpoint accuracy.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Skyfaller, on 12 June 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

the stuff that should be put in the game

Yes!

I really like your ideas, much simplier, much more logical and instinctive. Not an overly complicated mess like paul's idea. If I could vote I would vote it up, OP.

[armyof1]

Galenit, on 12 June 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Read again,
you can do that it with the cone/convergence thing too,
but no instant point and click anymore,
you have to wait a short time that your weapons need to adjust.

It rises the skill that is needed to do sniping and pinpoint accuracy.

I have read it and I always thought convergence was a bad idea and most certainly don't want it back, even in this form. Being able to hit where you aim at long distance without standing still as a statue is not a problem, it's how much damage you can do in a single shot to a single point and how often you can do it. If you can only do 20 shots with 6xPPC instead of 30 in the same time period, it will hamper your damage output considerably. That's what the heat penalty does, makes it less of an advantage to fire big damage alphas. That convergence system will punish everyone at mid- to long-range, whether I only fire one AC10 or 6xPPC. I have to stand still as a statue with my medium mech just to be able to fire a single AC accurately even mid-range. It's just something that will nerf all kind of ranged fighting, which is not needed at all.

Edited by armyof1, 12 June 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[Aim64C]

Galenit, on 12 June 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Read again,
you can do that it with the cone/convergence thing too,
but no instant point and click anymore,
you have to wait a short time that your weapons need to adjust.

It rises the skill that is needed to do sniping and pinpoint accuracy.

How does that really increase the skill required?

This is a computer game. Not medival sword fighting. To be "skilled" in any computer game requires something above basic pattern recognition and timing.

What it really does is increase the time one must devote to a shot if they don't want to accept suboptimal results.

[Kaldor]

Galenit, on 12 June 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Read again,
you can do that it with the cone/convergence thing too,
but no instant point and click anymore,
you have to wait a short time that your weapons need to adjust.

It rises the skill that is needed to do sniping and pinpoint accuracy.

Im OK with increasing convergence time, but the issue is you are making it harder once again for new people.

Thats fine if you are using laser weapons. But what if you need to track a target and lead it like you would with ballistics at range? And convergence opening up because Im moving, yeah, thanks but no thanks. That has never happened in any Mechwarrior game.

The issue is the HEAT SYSTEM that allows players to Alpha fire too many high heat high damage weapons. Fix that, and the problem goes away.

[3rdworld]

Galenit, on 12 June 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Read again,
you can do that it with the cone/convergence thing too,
but no instant point and click anymore,
you have to wait a short time that your weapons need to adjust.

It rises the skill that is needed to do sniping and pinpoint accuracy.

or buffs the heck out of the already better heavier mechs.

It doesn't raise the skill. It turns the game into assault camper online.

[Thuzel]

Kaldor, on 12 June 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

The only problem I really have with it is that its so far from canon, the purists will b_itch about it forever. Im not one of those people.

Regardless of whichever system is implemented, we all have to accept that MWO is going to have large departures from canon BT in a couple of key areas. Some of the classic system can be salvaged, but a lot of it just doesn't make sense when you want to create a fun, diverse, and balanced mech sim.

Heck, with the changes PGI has already made, we've already crossed that line anyway. We just don't want to admit it.

[Skyfaller]

Kaldor, on 12 June 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Im OK with increasing convergence time, but the issue is you are making it harder once again for new people.

Thats fine if you are using laser weapons. But what if you need to track a target and lead it like you would with ballistics at range? And convergence opening up because Im moving, yeah, thanks but no thanks. That has never happened in any Mechwarrior game.

Just like in WOT you lead with the dispersion indicator. You slow down for the shot and speed up once the shot is taken, etc. The faster you move the wider it is.. the closer you are the bigger your target is and thus 'fits' inside the convergence cone even if it is wide.. Remember, at 500m the cone would be filled with a mech (say a catapult) so that it has a 50% chance to hit.

The irony is, whatever complaint you can bring up about how it would affect your aiming and performance all you need to do is look at WOT to see a prime example of how the system works perfectly.

Quote

The issue is the HEAT SYSTEM that allows players to Alpha fire too many high heat high damage weapons. Fix that, and the problem goes away.

It wont. If you fix the heat you still have people boating and pinpoint striking an armor section. Not 6ppcs but 6 med pulse lasers. You get the idea. The boating and alpha strike high damage in pinpoint remains. Heat is only the thing that allows said pinpoint alpha boated shots to be taken one after the other. Reducing the amount of alphas does not remove the fact that they still are pinpoint damage alphas.

armyof1, on 12 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I have read it and I always thought convergence was a bad idea and most certainly don't want it back, even in this form. Being able to hit where you aim at long distance without standing still as a statue is not a problem, it's how much damage you can do in a single shot to a single point and how often you can do it. If you can only do 20 shots with 6xPPC instead of 30 in the same time period, it will hamper your damage output considerably. That's what the heat penalty does, makes it less of an advantage to fire big damage alphas. That convergence system will punish everyone at mid- to long-range, whether I only fire one AC10 or 6xPPC. I have to stand still as a statue with my medium mech just to be able to fire a single AC accurately even mid-range. It's just something that will nerf all kind of ranged fighting, which is not needed at all.

So... you think that firing at things at max range with absolute pinpoint accuracy while your mech is moving is.. ok? The convergence system only affects the arm mounted weapons. torso mounted fire straight forward. You can fire an AC at mid range in a fast moving mech and have a 50 to 60% chance to hit the target. Of course, the other guy has the very same chance unless he slows down and aims you a bit better (or just uses torso weapons and plinks you with a straight shot).

The whole point is to make the large, long range, high damage (notice theres no such thing as light, low damage long range weapons?) weapons be used from long range without having pinpoint damage ability. At close range the lighter weapons bring down opponents not by pinpoint damage but by damage output added over time and yes, you can also 'focus' your fire on certain sections of the mech by having the convergence cone cover only said sections of mech (aka 100m fight you can keep the cone covering the left arm/LT area if you see its armor is red there and most of your hits will land there and pop his components off rather than center-mass aim and see your shots hit the CT/RT/LT/Arms).

[armyof1]

Skyfaller, on 12 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

So... you think that firing at things at max range with absolute pinpoint accuracy while your mech is moving is.. ok? The convergence system only affects the arm mounted weapons. torso mounted fire straight forward. You can fire an AC at mid range in a fast moving mech and have a 50 to 60% chance to hit the target. Of course, the other guy has the very same chance unless he slows down and aims you a bit better (or just uses torso weapons and plinks you with a straight shot).

The whole point is to make the large, long range, high damage (notice theres no such thing as light, low damage long range weapons?) weapons be used from long range without having pinpoint damage ability. At close range the lighter weapons bring down opponents not by pinpoint damage but by damage output added over time and yes, you can also 'focus' your fire on certain sections of the mech by having the convergence cone cover only said sections of mech (aka 100m fight you can keep the cone covering the left arm/LT area if you see its armor is red there and most of your hits will land there and pop his components off rather than center-mass aim and see your shots hit the CT/RT/LT/Arms).

As long as the longer range weapons are not fired in big amounts together there is no problem with long range weaponry hitting where you aim without any cone of fire effects as soon as you move. That is for games that have quick-firing weapons, while in MWO we have several seconds of waiting between each shot. To enforce cones of fire as soon as you start moving in such conditions will just break the game. Boating and alpha same weapons for huge pintpoint damage is the problem, firing a single AC while moving is not but they are both punished equally.

Edited by armyof1, 12 June 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[Sephlock]

@ OP: Alternatively, it could make coolant a must-have for the high alpha builds.

[Kaldor]

Skyfaller, on 12 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Just like in WOT you lead with the dispersion indicator. You slow down for the shot and speed up once the shot is taken, etc. The faster you move the wider it is.. the closer you are the bigger your target is and thus 'fits' inside the convergence cone even if it is wide.. Remember, at 500m the cone would be filled with a mech (say a catapult) so that it has a 50% chance to hit.

The irony is, whatever complaint you can bring up about how it would affect your aiming and performance all you need to do is look at WOT to see a prime example of how the system works perfectly.

World of Tanks, perfect, lol. Not even close to the same game.
Remember, WoT is based around tanks from 1940-50 (iirc), not mechs from 3050. I fail to see the comparison.

Skyfaller, on 12 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

It wont. If you fix the heat you still have people boating and pinpoint striking an armor section. Not 6ppcs but 6 med pulse lasers. You get the idea. The boating and alpha strike high damage in pinpoint remains. Heat is only the thing that allows said pinpoint alpha boated shots to be taken one after the other. Reducing the amount of alphas does not remove the fact that they still are pinpoint damage alphas.

Yeah, but 6 MPLs are shot inside of 180m, not at 500+. And its 36 damage on a hit scan weapon vs 60 on a pinpoint weapon. 36 heat for MPL, and 48 for PPC. Also with 50% reduction in heat cap, shooting 6 PPCs would kill you, and 6 MPLs would redline your heat putting you in a very bad place in a brawl and not being able to fire. Mustrum posted the exact formula somewhere and I cannot find it.

Bad argument is bad.

Skyfaller, on 12 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

So... you think that firing at things at max range with absolute pinpoint accuracy while your mech is moving is.. ok? The convergence system only affects the arm mounted weapons. torso mounted fire straight forward. You can fire an AC at mid range in a fast moving mech and have a 50 to 60% chance to hit the target. Of course, the other guy has the very same chance unless he slows down and aims you a bit better (or just uses torso weapons and plinks you with a straight shot).

The whole point is to make the large, long range, high damage (notice theres no such thing as light, low damage long range weapons?) weapons be used from long range without having pinpoint damage ability. At close range the lighter weapons bring down opponents not by pinpoint damage but by damage output added over time and yes, you can also 'focus' your fire on certain sections of the mech by having the convergence cone cover only said sections of mech (aka 100m fight you can keep the cone covering the left arm/LT area if you see its armor is red there and most of your hits will land there and pop his components off rather than center-mass aim and see your shots hit the CT/RT/LT/Arms).

People expect pin point accuracy. Its been in every Mechwarrrior video game. Shooting weapons that require lead time is a skill. Adding in a cone actually decreases the skill need as it turns into "just get the cone on target and click" situation. There is no more shooting a specific location. This will also hurts lights more as well as they suddenly because they become even easier to hit with your cone proposal.

[kuangmk11]

Skyfaller, on 12 June 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

A- All weapons use the dispersion cone system.
B- Torso mounted weapons do not converge and instead fire straight ahead while arm weapons have the ability to converge.

Option B would make the game far more BT like as hit dispersion would be highest while still permitting pinpoint accuracy of arm mounted weapons IF they aim at a location long enough to narrow it down to where it has a high chance of both arm guns hitting the same armor plate. It would also make mechs with mobile hands have an advantage..which they did in BT.

I liked the idea of fixed convergence (user set) on torso weapons for a long time. Problem is this isn't a fighter plane sim. If guns don't auto converge left/right they also don't converge up/down. This makes them just about useless all the time unless you add a pitch mechanic to the torso.

I hate the "cone of fire" solution. Don't nerf aiming. I would be behind a pseudo convergence fix. Where arms with lower actuators, head mounted, and CT mounted converge pinpoint and torso or no lower arm actuator weapons fire a bit to either side of the crosshairs. The ret would be remade to have little crosshairs showing these points so you could aim with them easily. Yes I know thats not how convergence works "in real life", Its a concession to balance.

[Vodrin Thales]

Skyfaller, on 12 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

It wont. If you fix the heat you still have people boating and pinpoint striking an armor section. Not 6ppcs but 6 med pulse lasers. You get the idea. The boating and alpha strike high damage in pinpoint remains. Heat is only the thing that allows said pinpoint alpha boated shots to be taken one after the other. Reducing the amount of alphas does not remove the fact that they still are pinpoint damage alphas.

While you are technically correct there is one thing you are overlooking. Proper heat penalties can be used to effectively limit high pinpoint alphas. The incoming system will result in generating 78 heat from one 6 PPC volley. Since this is well over the full heat capacity of a mech with 18 DHS, and since we are also going to see mechs taking damage from exceeding their heat cap by 50%, this will effectively make such a large PPC alpha impossible.

Also recognize that the cone idea will not work nearly as well in MWO as it did in WOT due to some significantly different mechanics. In WoT you are firing one projectile weapon, not an assortment of different types of weapons, and the angling mechanic is a great deal of what makes the movement effects on cone of fire practical. If you angle appropriately towards the tank you are engaging you have some protection despite being still. In MWO you have nothing to protect you but your ability to move. And just think of what this will mean if you are a lone mech fighting multiple enemies. Cone of fire and this sort of convergence modifying is an interesting solution, but ultimately a poor one I think. Heat system modification and heat penalties for boating are a much better way to go.

[Roland]

Aim64C, on 12 June 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

This is a computer game. Not medival sword fighting. To be "skilled" in any computer game requires something above basic pattern recognition and timing.

Not sure if trolling.

Believe it or not, video games actually do involve skill. There are many players who will consistently beat you, not because they are simply lucky, but because they are better at the game than you.

[Koniving]

A dispersion system does make a bit of sense, especially the center torso weapons only going straight (I very much like that actually).

However, since they want a huge 'skill' base for gameplay we're not likely to see that. You also missed the real reason that boating is feasible. It's not because of "true double heatsinks" (engine) but the fact that heatsinks raise the heat threshold or cap. The reason we even have "1.4" double heatsinks is that they gave heatsinks the ability to raise the maximum heat we can tolerate. In tabletop, firing 6 ER PPCs twice in 20 seconds (2 turns) would have a high likelihood of actually killing the pilot due to the insane amount of heat. Not to mention the stalker would fall over twice.

------------------

I had some ideas that do not rely on "weapon thresholds" but instead on fixing one of the core issues -- we have impossibly rising heat caps/thresholds that both get insane and make standard heatsinks absolutely useless.

Please consider reading this post. It's a bit winded with examples both tabletop and non-TT, and has a TL;DR at the bottom.

Also in the spoiler is a simple idea on how to fix both the pinpoint damage on PPCs and how to fix the 'splash' issue with missiles, thereby shifting the meta, returning heat management as a valid skill regardless of what kinds of heatsinks you have, and all without silly things like weapon caps or bonus heat or other knickknacks to circumvent.

I didn't cover ballistics as we're soon to see "variants" of various weapons, such as the Super Crusher Heavy Autocannon (an AC/20 that fires 10 rounds at 2 damage each in a rapid burst, totalling 20 damage) and the ChemJet Gun (fewer rounds per 'squeeze' but each does more damage each).

If you like the idea in the post linked above, please show support both there and here. It is appreciated as it lets people know that "this is a good idea." Bryan said the devs look for trends; the more something is liked the more likely it'll be noticed as a 'trend'.

Edited by Koniving, 12 June 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Uoke]

There's a lot of great discussion going on in this thread! I've got a few thoughts I'd like to chime in with.

First, for those who are saying that our current boating problems come from high alpha damage and pinpoint accuracy, I don't really believe this is true. Here's why: PPCs and ERPPCs have been in the game since the very beginning, and they had the same pinpoint damage and alpha strike capabilities back then as they do now. But despite having these abilities that are now so lauded, hardly anyone used them until just a few months ago. Heck, it wasn't too long ago that I was reading thread after thread of people begging PGI to buff these "underpowered" weapons!

Now certainly, HSR for ballistics helped PPCs and ERPPCs, but that wasn't what got people using them. People started using them after they got buffed, and those buffs had nothing to do with alpha or pinpoint accuracy. Any thoughts on this?


For those who are saying that we should fix PPCs by lowering the heat cap and raising dissipation, I couldn't agree more. This is an elegantly simple solution, and it's the one that I'd most like to see implemented. However...I think it's perfectly fair to say that PGI strongly considered this solution, but decided to reject it. They haven't told us why - they're absolutely terrible at communication with the fans - but I think we can make an educated guess.

I've heard noise on the forums that PGI is unhappy with the game's current DPS. Specifically, they think it's too high. Lowering the heat cap and raising the dissipation is a great way to discourage alpha striking...but it would also increase DPS. So while it's a good solution, it's not the solution that they feel is best for the game: they need something that curbs alpha while keeping overall DPS the same. The solution they've proposed is the simplest way to do this without drastically altering the feel of the game. So although it's not my first choice, I say let's give it a shot and see if it works.

For those suggesting a "cone of fire" as a way to curb alpha striking, I gotta say I'm not enthusiatic about it. It's a perfectly valid mechanic...but I don't think it fits MWO and I'm betting PGI feels the same way. They've been saying since the beginning that they want this game to be highly skill based, and adding random scatter to direct fire weapons feels like a step in the opposite direction, even if it's not necessarily true. Honestly, I think the question of whether to implement this comes down to a matter of personal preference, and I'm betting that PGI prefers high accuracy.

Whacha think?

[Black Templar]

bumping this, only because i think it is the far superior fix and i want to see it implemented for a couple of weeks.

[RockWolf]

A fix to the pinpoint problem that I would suggest is the lowering or removal of convergence for anything but arm weapons WITH lower actuators. You want pinpoint damage? Get a mech with a lower actuator aka dragons, centurion, commando. You would still be able to alpha strike at a distance, example: Cataphract with the shoulder PPCs would hit another cataphract shoulders if you fire dead center. That way it would force pilots to compensate when firing left and right torso weapons and not waste shots alpha-striking and hitting all over the enemies mech. It would require some skill and would allow a more robotic feel and promote a higher level of play than the pinpoint gaming right now.

[Tickdoff Tank]

The vast majority of people in this thread seem to be bound and determined to ruin this game. luckily the devs have proven themselves adept at ignoring the idiotic suggestions of the masses. Thank God for that.

[skullman86]

Aim64C, on 12 June 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

My apologies, my posts are intended to be read and interpreted by those posessing sentience.

I am not against a hardpoint system. I am against a "****-poor" hardpoint system.

The problem isn't "boating" - the problem is the extremes to which 'boating' can be taken.

The hardpoint system should be a 2d 'plot' for hardpoints. A 2x3 grid, a 4x2 grid - etc. Weapons should take up a 2d space (and not be able to be rotated). Thus - if a PPC takes up a 3x2 plot, and a large laser takes up a 2x2 plot, one cannot fit a PPC into a 2x4 plot, but may fit 2 large lasers.

The specifics could be worked around, and the numbers modified a bit more (such as a PPC may take up a 3x4 area whereas a large laser a 3x3) - but the point would be that you would be able to sub-divide a hardpoint into smaller weapons if you wished - and you could allow multiple smaller weapons without introducing large weapons.

This would help to preserve chassis personality.

Note that this would not necessarily get rid of the critical system - the classic critical system could remain in the background.

I think OP's heat solution is a nice way to give SHS some usability, but I always come to a similar conclusion with hardpoints when I look at game balance. Punishing people with heat for boating X number of weapons doesn't work for Gauss and players will just bypass the min. fire rate of everything else with a macro (as has been stated by a few people).

Critical slot restrictions is literally the only way PGI is going to stop people from boating the wrong weapons on the wrong mechs, but they are never going to do it. Hardpoint restrictions were suggested almost a year ago when the K2 was dominating the field and they did nothing about it; we are going to see a half dozen features implemented to "balance" a core problem rather than a fix because they don't want to scare players/buyers away.

Every variant should have a well defined role, and it should be balanced against other variants within the chassis as well as other variants within the weight class, otherwise rounds just turn into "who picked the mech with the most flexible layout".